Apparently a page from an internal IBM training manual. Some further attempts at source it

Ancient IBM wisdom (from 1979) that the bosses just straight up promptly forgot

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[–] 162 points 1 year ago (5 children)

And when computers make all management decisions, let us not forget that managers told them to do so, lest we forget whom to hold accountable.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You know shit only flows downhill right?

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  • [–] 108 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think what they meant is nobody in management cares if someone wants to hold them accountable

    Bit it's a nice picture, yeah

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  • [–] 107 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Managers aren’t being held accountable for their management decisions either.

    “Oh, I sacked our entire workforce and sold all the company assets, so the figures will look amazing this month.”

    “Oh, the figures are down this month, a golden handshake!? Thank you very much.”

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    It depends, though.

    There are cases where parts of a struggling company is worth less than the sum of its parts. At that point, the fiscally prudent option is to sell it off, either in one piece or multiple pieces. There are plenty of cases in American corporate history where the best option is to cut losses and leave a market.

    That being said, I'm surprised that private equity is still allowed to be a thing given the massive disparity shown in how a lot of financial disparity in how a lot of private equity companies run their companies against their fiduciary responsibilities to their companies' stockholders and bondholders.

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  • [–] 61 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Reminds me of Woz’s old saying “Never trust a computer you can’t throw out a window.”

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago

    Executives today:

    This means if we put AI somewhere in our decision making, we can no longer be held accountable.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Isn't that exactly why they do use them for management decisions?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yup!

    "I'm sorry but your contact is terminated because our management software designated your position as redundant and unnecessary. It wasn't our decision to let you go, but it was our decision to begin using that software and it was our decision to program it to try to fire as many employees as possible, but it's not our decision and therefore we can't be held responsible. Goodbye."

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    The same argument for cartels. "We didn't all increase our prices to the exact same amount, we just paid a consulting company to tell us which price we should use. Of course our competitors used the exact same company, but that's just a coincidence".

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Since when are managers held accountable? Is this new?

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  • [–] 80 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Ah, from back when people still had critical thinking faculties in good working order.

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Back when tech is still dominated by hippies and not fascists.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    This is as good an excuse as any to break out the ol' IBM corporate songbook

    Tech has always been suits at the top, hippies at best an annoying necessity because they know how to actually operate the machine.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "Back in the day", IBM was all suits the entire way up and down the ladder. They were considered the company for 1960/70s button down dress code.

    The hippie types were at MIT hacking on DEC machines.

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  • I think that's broadly true, but just because you work somewhere as oppressive as IBM doesn't mean you don't long to breathe the free air. I like to imagine some of the contributors to the IBM songbook felt trapped in their day job and grabbed at that as the only available creative outlet, and they had their own magnum opus that they were going to publish just as soon as they felt safe enough to take the leap. I can't find any credits for the songs so maybe they did.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That'd be my parents who are dead and consequently not present, but thanks for bringing that up whilst completely stumping me with your eloquent, constructive and incisive counterargument that in no way proves my point.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's the neat thing, you can deny accountability by blaming the computer's decision

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    [–] 18 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's why board executives and business are so excited about it

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's not my fault

    I was just following orders

    It's just company policy

    It's just a misstep in the algorithm

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Let's be honest though, most managers, maybe ~60% could be replaced by AI. If you want evidence, think of anyone who goes to meetings, and those who go to meetings all day element 90% of meetings, at minimal. Those jobs shouldn't exist. They are what people like Bezos/Musk believe should not exist.

    Now, how does one get from being nothing, and never being in meetings to being someone making money... You can't, unless you know someone. AI is an "American Dream" killer

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    There are studies showing that LLM AI is competitive against human C suite managers. When issues like AI hallucinations are brought up, it turns out that human C suite managers also make shit up all the time.

    One interesting thing they found was that AI doesn't do as well if there is a shock to the economic system like Covid.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago

    promptly

    Very meta

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    TBF Management can barely make any management decisions either...

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    As a US citizen, this logic need to be applied to corperations. The C_Os make all the decisions for the company, the Campany should not be held as responsible for the shitty actions of its Board. The Board should be held accountable for the companies actions be required to served by all the C_Os. I say served, I mean fines and prison time ,in all cases, as a fine is paid personally by the person and time is served aslo bu the person.

    I know fine are just a temporary for "legal fo .a price" fine should be paid to hut them so Retirement accounts are taken, future earning are taken, income from salary+bonus at time of infraction are taken, and close loops of off shore accounts

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    This is sad, not humorous

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I can only assume the very next slide said, "But having a computer make battlefield targeting decisions is A-OK!" /s

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    A complete one-eighty nowadays..."As a highly paid "business" exec I have no ideas...computer, tell me what to do."

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    But a computer works for "free" so "not being held accountable" is even better!!

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Thou shall not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    "No networked computers!" Colonial fleet high command standing orders

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  • One of many reasons why I love BSG. As a retro-computing enthusiast, the idea that antique systems are naturally impervious to conventional digital attacks, just felt so validating.

    Sure, our navigation system is based on a Commodore-64, but good luck getting it to divulge mission-critical information over bluetooth. Or any information for that matter.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The computer can't be held accountable, but the programmer and operator can.

    I could go on a whole thing about mission rules and command decisions here, but I'm sick of typing for the day.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Well, I might get disliked for this opinion, but in some cases it's perfectly fine for a computer to make a management decision. However, this should also mean that the person in charge of said computer, or the one putting the decision by the computer into actual action, should be the one that gets held responsible. There's also the thing where it should be questioned how responsible it is to even consider the management decisions of a computer in a specific field. What I'm saying is that there's no black and white answer here.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    The directors not going to like this

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I asked computer if I should read the article, it said no. Am I in an abusive relationship?

    That is ridiculous, clearly. I’ll use mainstream search engine, tailor made to my needs, to make sure it cannot happen

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    I generally agree.

    Imagine however, that a machine objectively makes the better decisions than any person. Should we then still trust the humans decision just to have someone who is accountable?

    What is the worth of having someone who is accountable anyway? Isn't accountability just an incentive for humans to not just fuck things up? It's also nice for pointing fingers if things go bad - but is there actually any value in that?

    Additionally: there is always a person who either made the machine or deployed the machine. IMO the people who deploy a machine and decide that this machine will now be making decisions should be accountable for those actions.

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  • [+] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Tbf that leads to the problem of:

    Company/Individual makes program that is in no way meant for making management decision.

    Someone else comes and deploys that program to make management decisions.

    The ones that made that program couldn't stop the ones that deployed it from deploying it.

    Even if the maker aimed to make a decision-making program, and marketed it as so. Whoever deployed it is ultimately the responsible for it. As long as the maker doesn't fake tests or certifications of course, I'm sure that would violate many laws.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    The premise is that a computer must never make a management decision. Making a program capable of management decisons already failed. The deployment and use of that program to that end is already built upon that failure.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I believe those who deploy the machines should be responsible in the first place. The corporations who make/sell those machines should be accountable if they deceptively and intentionally program those machines to act maliciously or in somebody else's interest.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Imagine however, that a machine objectively makes the better decisions than any person.

    You can't know if a decision is good or bad without a person to evaluate it. The situation you're describing isn't possible.

    the people who deploy a machine [...] should be accountable for those actions.

    How is this meaningfully different from just having them make the decisions in the first place? Are they too stupid?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    You can evaluate effectiveness by company profits. One program might manage a business well enough to steadily increase profit, another may make a sharp profit before profit crashes (maybe by firing important workers) . Investors will demand the best CEObots

    Edit to add: of course any CEObot will be more sociopathic than any human CEO. They won't care about literally anything unless a score is attached to it

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  • This... requires a person to look at the profit numbers. To care about them, even. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

    I think you're saying that computers can be very good at chess, but we are the ones who decide what the rules to chess are.

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    [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Sorry can’t hear you as AI brrs over hiring applications and performance reviews

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Again, weapons without human in the loop needs to be against the Geneva convention, yesterday. Or articles of war , something. This is a tractable problem, that needs attention, now, It will not end well and can actually be (mostly, by honorable armies) fixed.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    This endless separation into “managers” and “not managers” is so unproductive. Everyone manages something. That’s why you’re employed.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Sounds like something a manager would say. Some of us produce, create value through our labor, while some sit their fat asses at a desk and only grace the production floor to make everybody's day just a little more difficult. So you just get on back up there to the big house and let us handle things out here where you can't hack it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    This is too facile. First, in terms of capability maturity, management is not the goal of a fully-realized line of industry. Instead, the end is optimization, a situation where everything is already repeatable, defined, and managed; in this situation, our goal is to increase, improve, and simplify our processes. In stark contrast, management happens prior to those goals; the goal of management is to predict, control, and normalize processes.

    Second, management is the only portion of a business which is legible to the government. The purpose of management is to be taxable, accountable, and liable, not to handle the day-to-day labors of the business. The Iron Law insists that the business will divide all employees into the two camps of manager and non-manager based solely on whether they are employed in pursuit of this legibility.

    Third, consider labor as prior to employment; after all, sometimes people do things of their own cognizance without any manager telling them what to do. So, everybody is actually a non-manager at first! It's only in the presence of businesses that we have management, and only in the presence of capitalism that we have owners. Consider that management inherits the same issues of top-down command-and-control hierarchy as ownership or landlording.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I've thought about this wrt to AI and work. Every time I sit in a post mortem it's about human errors and process fixes.

    The day a post mortem ends with "well the AI did it so nothing we can do" is the day I look towards.. with dread.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You are essentially saying
    "Management is essential, replace the common work force with AI"

    Well...If I get fired, I will hold you accountable!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I hope you are in a job that an LLM can't do.

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