Hey, remember when Baldur’s Gate 3 came out, was pretty excellent, mostly everyone loved it, and then all the AAA studios started whining that it was an unrealistic standard to be held to?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Hey, remember when Baldur’s Gate 3 came out, was pretty excellent, mostly everyone loved it, and then all the AAA studios started whining that it was an unrealistic standard to be held to?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
How about you stop releasing unfinished live service shit and put out something that is genuinely fun to play and not just another money trap for unsupervised children.
But how will they make quarterly targets without them?
It's like you aren't even thinking of the shareholders.
The amount of genuinely good and successful live service games is so minimal that it's actual insanity seeing AAA execs trying to reinvent the wheel and failing every time.
It's interesting because the live-service formula is kind of antithetical to what they want. They essentially want a low-effort low-cost perpetual money-printing machine. They really should just invest in actual money printing machines and churn out fake money, because that'd be a more successful endeavour.
The live-service games that live on do so because of a constant investment and commitment to the game and the community it harbours. The moment people think the writing's on the walls, they jump ship.
It's just so bizarre to me that they want people to invest time and more importantly, money into the game, when they themselves aren't willing to do so.
The live-service games that live on do so because of a constant investment and commitment to the game and the community it harbours. The moment people think the writing's on the walls, they jump ship.
This especially. Just as an example, I sunk way too much time into Destiny 2, and recently picked up Warframe after putting D2 away last year, and the difference between the studios behind them both is night and day. The former feels like an abusive relationship, built on constant FOMO, removing content, and constantly skirting around the community's numerous issues with the game's systems and sandbox (and that's all on top of Bungie/Sony execs treating the actual devs like garbage).
The latter feels like a game where the players are genuinely treated as the game's lifeblood and rather than nickel and dime them for every last thing, the devs give them what they want, and the devs get to make what they want to make. Not to mention literally everything in the game minus community-created cosmetics can be earned without spending anything at all.
These sorts of comparisons are all over the place. PoE2 compared to Diablo 4 or post-Krafton Last Epoch for example. You can't just pump out a live service game and hope shit sticks, you need to foster a community around it.
I think Digital Extremes, at least currently, is still very aware of what made them successful.
John Bain for example spoke out about the games potential very early, earning them a big influx of players, and they've previously stated that Warframe wouldn't have been a thing if not for him. I guess it can be particularly contrasted with the fact that Warframe was kind of a Hail Mary project for the studio. They'd pitched it around for a while but no publisher responded positively. When they were running out of money they just said "fuck it" and went to work on it, publisher be damned.
I've been playing on and off for years now, since around the release of The Second Dream. It makes me really happy to see that they're doing well. I hope they'll continue to do well, and do well by the community.
They essentially want a low-effort low-cost perpetual money-printing machine
Problem is that they can't micromanage that into existence, ConcernedApe more or less created a money printing machine with Stardew Valley all by himself, at least at first. It would be so much cheaper for studios to find like 15 inspired independent devs/designers that need money to make their dream a reality, give them just a lil equity and room/time to cook and they might actually get something amazing. But ain't no way execs and shareholders would let that happen, they'd yank the plug after year one of a three year contract.
This was literally the model of YCombinator initially. Get a bunch of inspired young graduates, give them the tools and resources to build a successful business in exchange for a stake in the business then roll in the dough in a decade when they own 10% of Google for example.
I suppose you could argue it's the model of venture capital as well, invest in a company with a lot of potential when it's in its infancy, then rake it in when they happen to own 30% of Uber 10 years later
It is funny though that the games industry seems to not see this and adapt this model because it seems like the big studios would love it
Like a gambling addiction if you think about it. "No no no, THIS will be THE game that will make us Fortnite money!!!"
Almost all AAA games are online live service games. I have absolutely no interest in those games. I have been surviving off of indy or lower budget games pretty well while the big guys are off trying to make all the money doing boring shit.
I've been on a spree of buying or buying abandoned games or old console games lately and have been really happy with not being online at all, not updating anything I don't want updated, and paying a reasonable price for the content I got. I don't care that the graphics are outdated, if the gameplay works and is fun, its fine looking like almost anything.
Yeah. I guess I'm too old to understand the drive for better and better graphics.
To me, you don't repaint a new version of the Mona Lisa just because we have better paints available today.
Graphics (for me) peaked in the 360/PS3 era when games started to nail smooth "movement". After that it was just about making things more and more photorealistic, which is so completely uninteresting to me because I'm playing a game.
That era also has good control schemes. I went to replay Perfect Dark on my analogue 3d and hoooooooo boy, those layouts are like wearing beer goggles or trying to ride a reverse handle bar bike. I'll need to try the dual controller layout but I am considering butchering a cheap controller to make something that matches modern layouts.
The only ones I play these days are Warframe and occasionally PoE2, both relatively smaller dev teams with large publisher backing but mostly left to their own devices to do whatever the fuck they want. Coming from the predatory FOMO hell that was Destiny 2, getting into similar games but ones that actually respect the players is refreshing.
I have zero interest in throwaway AAA slop in general, let alone with all the usual live service shit tacked on.
The only ones I play these days are Warframe and occasionally PoE2…
I didn’t know they made Power over Ethernet into a game, let alone a sequel.
Have they considered not spending half a billion dollars giving hair strands shadow effects, and instead developing interesting stories?
Losing the hardware constraints made devs less innovative too. The Crash Bandicoot devs had to hack the PlayStation's system memory allocation to squeeze a bit more out of the machine so their game could be better.
I don't know if this is the best applicatioon of their genius tbh. If you're not spending time fighting with tools, you spend it making stuff you want to make.
I work in embedded my whole life so I'm no stranger of fighting over scraps of resources and spending days trying to squeeze in something that doesn't fit. It made me better at fighting this specific hardware limitations, and now instead of spending 10 times more time on making something that takes no time at all on a capable hardware, I spend only 5 times more.
I don't know if for creative work it does something, but for programming it's like chopping wood with one hand behind your back. Sure you can do it, sure you can get better at it, sure it forces you to adjust your ways, but it doesn't make the wood better chopped, it just makes you slower and more prone to mistakes for no reason
Thats why I love the ps1 and og consoles in general. For one. Yes, they had to work their asses off. For two, THE GAMES WERE (usually) FINISHED BY THE TIME YOU PLAYED IT.
The model of make game-test game-release game-DONE was tried and true, and something rarely experienced today.
There are amazing games today of course. But still, we have definitely shifted and I dont prefer it for the most part.
Part of that is due to the sheer complexity of games now compared to then. It's hard to test everything.
Of course, there's also the problems of games getting released in noticeably buggy states, which seems a lot more common now than it used to be (there were definitely buggy games released for the PS1, but they were rare).
So copy what Kingdom Come: Deliverance and Baldur's Gate did and make good replayable games.
Also stop listening to the C suite and start listening to the gamers.
I'm curious though, viewing movies as investments has made a some studios filthy rich. Why does that seem to be different for games?
Why do they need to get filthy rich? Why not settle for rich and having a good game?
This is the problem with capitalism now. No one is happy making a good profit. They have to extract maximum profit by cutting everything else.
They absolutely don't. I'm just wondering why it works out financially for Marvel and Mission Impossible movies but not for games
Movies have a bigger audience, require less time commitment, are heavily marketed, and cost less to see. Easier to convince people to see a so-so movie as long as it has a couple of good scenes. Harder to do with games, and gamers are usually at least somewhat more aware of games before they buy them.
Suppose this is why Marvel films just don't work for me. Like, I can appreciate the artistic talent that went into things, I can appreciate that they've got impressive budgets and teams working on it, but narratively they kind of suck.
Sat down and watched Antman with a friend recently. I liked the moments the main character had with his kid. I liked it when the step-dad showed equal care for the kid as the father, and them sort of resolving some of their differences in that moment. That was nice.
I'm still bothered by the whole "when you shrink you retain your mass, so you're essentially like a bullet" part, and how that concept got completely shit-canned for the rest of the film. You can't just punt an ant-sized object weighing 90 kg, yet I think there was a moment where he literally got flicked away. Why even bother with some scientific-sounding BS if you're not going to adhere to it?
Guess you're just not supposed to think about it. But then, what is the point? I don't read books to not think, I read books to experience something new, and have something to think about. Film works the same way for me.
On a movie set, the director has a huge amount of authority. It's been baked into the culture for about a hundred years that the director is one step below God. A studio treats films as investments, but they also hire a director and (mostly) get out of the way. Sure, producers do meddle, but it's nowhere close to the same amount as with games -- and all the meddling is still pointed at the director, not the crew. I think this limits the damage that can be done.
Also, the film industry has strong unions. Most of the abuses in game dev simply aren't allowed. I suspect that the horrible culture of game dev can cause developers to stop caring, which bleeds through to the final product, and that won't happen to the same extent for movies.
"Popcorn movies" are a big thing, and most of those big investments are these. They're "turn off you brain for two hours and chill" events. A game, even the most chill ones, almost always last much longer and require more engagement. That is the defining trait of the medium. If you can totally turn your brain off then you didn't make a game, you made an expensive movie. Games, for players, are an investment. Movies often aren't.
Even then, turn your brain off and chill only fits a certain market segment. Sure, it's a large market segment, just look at how popular the Marvel films are, but it's not the entire market, and just like with gaming when something truly compelling comes along it tends to shake things up a bit.
Call me crazy, but I don’t want to play a game “with staying power”.
I want to play games that are fun, I finish them, then move on.
I don’t need a “forever game”. I don’t want seasons, season passes, dailies, battle passes, time limited, time gated content.
Crazy. I want to play a game with staying power.
I want the game that I look at and go "When did I get 1000 hours on the game?" Because I keep coming back to it.
But this is where we agree. I want to play games that are fun.
Seasons, dailies, battle passes, etc aren't the things that I see as "staying power", that's microtransactions to a sunk cost fallacy.
Staying power to me is like Terraria, where I go in, build a world. Run around. Then wander off to something else... to wander back and play more Terraria.
I mostly agree with you, I feel like most games with staying power, are games that fundamentally will have you playing because you enjoy it.
I don't think I can write off seasons in multiplayer games though, some games do benefit from having larger changes that happen at the end of these seasons.
Battle passes can at best be fine(if they at least pay for the next one), I don't think any are particularly good as a metric for staying power, you still need/want to enjoy playing the game to progress the battle pass.
For me the best staying power is a game that has complexity and depth to mechanics. So I have something to improve on and chase(like lap times in sim racing)
With staying power I thought of games like Factorio.
Bought it once, played it for thousands of hours. A decade later or so it gets an extension which basically quintuples the content, am playing it thousands of hours more.
Factorio, rimworld, stardew valley, and project zomboid are the games I'm likely to be playing at any given time of year since they came out and every time there's an expansion or update.
These weren't expensive games to develop, I even played them for years when they weren't yet finished.
I'm still of the opinion that the best games are the ones that are developed in a way is friendly to the mod community.
Mods literally made MechWarrior mercenaries, Minecraft and GTA5 into Great games rather than merely good ones.
The budgets are too big
And misspent.
And also spent by utterly incompetent management whose prime qualification is fluency in corpospeak and AAA tier ass-kissing...
... as opposed to, you know, any kind of actual project management skills.
They're all self important, self righteous idiots, in leadership roles in AAA.
... The goddamned AAAA pirate game that Ubisoft took 10 years to rework 3 or 4 times, and then shit out as basically a demo of a mobile style gacha game, that requires a fairly high end PC to run.
How is that not just like, money laundering / tax evasion / tax fraud, with extra steps?
Constraints have always led to increased creativity, and now that there basically aren't any limits with current tech and ballooning budgets in AAA there's also basically no creativity.
There's plenty of constraints still, they aren't technical though. It's about making a game good despite the monetization requirements.
Lol
Yeah, that's totally the problems and not vertical integration being used to churn money as a gift...
We are at a point now that games from the PS3/X360 era still look and play well, so newer titles need to contribute something new in order to make an impact.
If a AAA-studio releases a 7/10 title in 2026, it’s not just competing with the 8s, 9s, and 10s also releasing the same year - but also every single such title from the past 20 years!
This will also only continue to get worse in coming years as the backlog of exceptional titles will continue to build.
For the last little while now, I've been finding that my most played games have been on my old 360 that I decided to plug in again, and my old old PS2 collection that I ripped and loaded to an emulator because the old hardware broke a long time ago.
Third place is "new to me" games that I finally buy when they go on a good sale years after they were "new" (is. RDR2 and Cyberpunk)
I haven't bought a new AAA title in years on console because I can't justify the cost.
PS2 games look and play great on the Steamdeck. Probably my favorite way to play them.
By the way, I have a couple of PS2's, and I use a harddrive so the hardware just keeps working. Usually it is the laser that fails. There are also options to network and play from NAS, or use a micro SD.
Mine was the laser as well. Unfortunately it was years and years ago and I just tossed it away like an idiot. My collection from then on began collecting dust until last year when I decided to take one of my old Android Phones and a Razer Kishi and turn it into a handheld emulator.
Im still waiting for them to make something TRULY original again, like Majestic.
But that takes creativity and hard work, something massive corporations and capitalism will shove down so far you forget they ever existed.
It honestly feels like original and creative works are exclusively the domain of indie developers nowadays.
Given how bloated AAA budgets have become, publishers seemingly don’t want to risk taking a chance on some more whacky ideas - at least until an indie dev proves it out first.
And then you have Clair Obscur schooling studios on how it should be done.
I just started playing this game. I cried at the end of the fucking prologue. What amazing writing and voice acting.
Buckle up, mate.
This is... but the prologue. Steel yourself. You'll need it.
spoiler
<e: apparently spoilers don't work for some users>
I think the last AAA I tried was Baldur's Gate 3.
Pretty good tbh.
BG3 is technically an indie game if you go by the literal definition of the term!
It's weird to think of a top-down historically-isometric RPG as "AAA". We've come a long way, baby.
Apparently we've gone all the way around, because there has been no numbered Baldur's Gate game that wasn't AAA as absolute fuck.
The series was very good, but it was still a low budget project. BG1 was developed for an estimated $1.5-3M. BG2 was developed for $7M. I can't even find budgets for Icewind Dale or Planescape: Torment.
But compare that the BG3's $100M budget (closer to $200M after marketing).
These were great games, but they were largely indie games. None of them had AAA budgets back in the 90s. Even at the scale of the era, Ultima XI cost $12M to produce. The OG FF7 cost $45M.
By that metric there were maybe two AAA PC games in all of 1998. BG1 you can make the case (but given that it was an Interplay-published, licensed game meant for relatively performant hardware, it was absolutely in line with AAA PC releases of the day). BG2? Absolutely not. Bordering on eight digits in 2000 was not a small game at all. And of course neither were independent games by definition.
For sure BG3 is absurdly large and the historical comparisons break down a bit in the sheer scale of what that thing is. But nobody in the late 90s was buying a top down D&D CRPG with the production values of BG (or an action RPG in the vein of Diablo the previous year) and thinking they were slumming it in the dregs of small budget gaming.
By that metric there were maybe two AAA PC games in all of 1998.
There were a lot fewer, certainly. FF7 was the heavyweight. Zelda: Ocarina, MGS, and StarCraft were in the running. Shenmu (produced a year later) had a budget north of $47M (the high fluctuation in Yen value making this a hard calculation).
But you wouldn't see truly big budget gaming until GTA4 crested the nine digit mark.
Bordering on eight digits in 2000 was not a small game at all.
The difference between $7M and $47M is a buncha lotta money.
MGS only made it to Windows in 2000. OoT obviously never did, officially.
Where I was, the games running in demo PCs and net cafés in 98/99 were Quake 3, Unreal and, believe it or not, yeah, Baldur's Gate. Because BG1 already had pretty much the same MP as BG3 and people would pay per seat to play co-op runs of the original.
For the PC crowd BG1 and Starcraft were on a pretty even playing field in terms of scope perception.
The thing is, at the time counting budgets wasn't much of a consideration. For one thing, most of them weren't publicly known at all, beyond the extreme outliers you mention. People took notice when 50 mill were broken because that was such a high water mark for so long, but if AAA was a concept at all (it wasn't), it certainly had more to do with branding and promotional materials. Having ads on good old normie broadcast TV did more to sell the size of FF7 than how big it was.
Ultimately BG was a major release. It came from a familiar publisher, it had a recognizable license, it had the same gaming magazine coverage as other major releases of the year, and it got a ton of critical praise and buzz across the industry. It didn't come across as scope-constrained at all. FF7 was on another level entirely, but that was true of pretty much every other game release.
Also, FWIW, OoT wasn't that big of a deal where I am, and neither was the N64 in general. GoldenEye and Turok drove more attention than OoT, and neither of those were particularly relevant, either. You would have definitely had much more luck getting people to recognize Baldur's Gate than OoT over here in 1999.
I played BG3 and liked it, but stopped because the game seems to have been co-opted by the Far Right
This sentence makes my brain hurt. They co-opted it how? You're just entirely unwilling to engage with any piece of media the far right actually likes just on principle? As in, regardless of how... not far right the piece of media itself happens to be?
I hate this century. This century sucks.
the game seems to have been co-opted by the Far Right
Oh no, I hadn't heard about this yet. What'd they do?
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