But you'll need a powerful system with 64GB of RAM to use it.

Microslop thinks that "Clutter free" means "bundled with an always on LLM" 😸

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[–] 162 points 2 months ago (29 children)

The goal, really, is to cut the crud out of Windows to create a more Linux-like experience.

but

for powerful developer hardware with 64GB of RAM and gobs of memory bandwidth.

????

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    I don't get it either.

    If they said "requires a beefy dGPU or one of the handful of high-bandwidth APUs" that feels like it would make more sense than just 64G RAM. I thought most models weren't optimized to run on a CPU even with gobs of RAM.

    And plenty of firms don't ship their devs 64G machines, especially in ghe current RAM crunch. Mine sent me a 16G machine in like 2023 and only replaced it with 32 on request because Win11+Docker were heavier than the old Win10/external server workflow.

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  • [–] 21 points 2 months ago* (24 children)

    Why do developers need 64GB+ RAM on their computers? Maybe I’m biased as a Ruby on Rails web application developer but I’m happily squeaking by on just 8GB RAM. Maybe they’re developing with the memory-hungry VS Code?

    I thought it was the gamers who needed tons of RAM.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I've worked on large C++ applications and it's worth having a beefy machine. Each source file can be compiled in parallel so you save time by having a ton of CPU cores and memory.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah for most projects the only time you need a workstation-class machine is to cut down on compile times. Every time you make a change and run you have to compile; a process you do possibly hundreds of times per day benefits immensely from even being just 1-2 seconds faster

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    I do use quite a bit, but I also do a lot of different things. Compiling code, running docker containers, local web servers, an android emulator, slack, browser tabs for Jira/confluence/figma/etc., all adds up pretty quick.

    8GB is definitely nowhere near enough, at least for what I need to do.

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  • [–] 20 points 2 months ago (13 children)

    Visual Studio, VS Code, WSL2, docker containers, SQL Server + SSMS, MS Teams, ...

    Usually all at the same time. Not everyone is doing just web dev.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (11 children)

    Teams, Visual Studio, VS Code are trash, they leak memory like no other

    WSL2 is hilarious, just run Linux/UNIX?

    SQL Server and SSMS are trash

    I run Docker quite a bit but if you’re actually writing the containers efficiently it shouldn’t be sucking down ~64GB of RAM. But I’ve also seen how people shovel things like Java, log rotation, etc. into those containers because they act like it’s a 1994 VPS.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    This is on my work PC, I can't just switch there (:

    For .NET development Visual Studio and Rider are the only decent options, everything else is "trash". Teams is the company communication tool (besides Outlook).

    And we run SQL Servers in Azure, PostgreSQL would cost the same (but I'd love to switch to it myself).

    You don't need 64 GB of RAM, I was happy with 48 GB too, but the headroom is nice. 32 GB would be borderline for my work though, especially as I often have two heavy backend services open (2x Visual Studio) plus a Python project for automated tests (VS Code).

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Just don't use Teams. There's Zulip, Mattermost, Rocket.Chat, even Matrix and XMPP.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    People don't choose Teams, it's forced on them by executives that rather save a little licensing money rather than have an effective communication tool. The entire MS stack is basically kept alive by convincing corporations to shove it down the throats of their employees. The only people I ever hear say anything nice about MS products are system admins that like the centralized way you can lock down and micromanage Windows instances.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago*

    Not everyone does the same development process as you.

    And I’m sure we all work at places that allow us to change the entire tech stack and switch away from teams /s

    Be realistic, there are many reasons you need all of these things and more. Why are you trashing other people so much?

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 2 months ago

    run Docker quite a bit but if you’re actually writing the containers efficiently it shouldn’t be sucking down ~64GB of RAM

    In Windows when you run a docker container a full Linux VM is run, so it uses gigabytes of memory

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  • [+] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago

    When you work on backend services you have a local DB running 24/7. Changes don't go onto the actual dev environment until locally tested, or you might just break things for 50 other people.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    Why an RDBMS on the local though? Testing shit doesn’t make sense to name it as a regular piece of software.

    I always build against a local DB?

    For our desktop / LAN software the DB will always be local.

    For web, it's easier since I'm likely to burn the DB down over and over during early development / prototyping. But I'm not using cloud hosted DB even in production, and don't expose Postgres outside the DB server, so I find it easier to work on this way.

    EDIT: I also think that a default installation of VS includes SQL Server. I don't use it, so always have to adjust the installation and remove all of those bits, but I also have complete control of my environment. I could see an IT department just doing a stock VS installation with the required workloads.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    I could totally see that for the web stuff where I only make changes a couple of times a year. Usually when working on those I just delete the local DB before I start to keep it clean, but spinning up a new copy would be more efficient.

    For our desktop apps / server Postgres is always installed locally on the machine, so keeping it there mirrors "production".

    I spent most of my time working on those apps and services, or working on the Android client (or both at the same time when a feature requires that both change), and often on a copy of actual customer data as we do a lot of custom work for clients.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Yeah, that’s exactly the process- while you are building out a feature it hits a local DB and once it’s ready to integrate you push it to a shared environment.

    If you break dev, coworkers be mad

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Sometimes you use big datasets. I needed 64GB (well, I only needed more than 32 to be fair, but 5-6 years ago it wasn't that expensive) to figure out a bug in data going over 32bits number of indices on a gpu.

    But usually 32GB has been largely enough for most stuff, I even only have 16 on my laptop but I don't do large stuff any more.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I develop in containers, which means I don't have to install dependencies on my host.
    While it's overhead, it's never that massive.
    Sure things like Codium and all the tooling takes up a lot of memory... I don't think I've seen over 10gb of "dev related" memory.
    I feel like people are significantly desensitized about how much data 1GB actually is.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    I build windows software, so need Windows and VS. I keep my entire development environment in a virtual machine. I also have a couple of other VMs for client isolation, clean installation testing, etc.

    So having that much memory allows me to run more than one virtual machine at a time, and keep enough reserve for my actual desktop.

    It was also my first rebuild in over 12 years, and RAM prices hadn't gone stupid yet, so I figured I'd drop a few more $ and build another decade+ future proof machine.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    Java dev in charge of a $100M product here. Can't actually compile it with less than 32 GB of RAM.

    My old job working with a hydraulic analysis firm, needed 256 GB to run the product it in local development mode; to run customer models in production was a mainframe job - typically multi-terabytes. Computational fluid dynamics eats all your memory and asks for more. My work computer would have been pretty shitty as a gaming desktop, but did have every memory slot maxed out.

    Yes, you might be working on something more lightweight, and that is fine. That doesn't mean that your requirements are the be all and end all.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    They probably try to keep the normal users out, so that their spy-ware infested normal version is still the default for most of the users.

    Either that or they didn't remove the crud but replaced it with AI crud that needs the RAM.

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  • [–] 139 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] 213 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 59 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Don't be so mean. You can do many useful things on windows. Like for example selecting Linux distro, downloading it and saving on an USB.

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  • [–] 66 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Clearly, the focus is on local AI development β€” a timely move as cloud AI token costs start to rise.

    This is called burying the lede.

    If Microsoft knows this cloud-based AI thing is a bust and people will be moving to local models that are not controlled by Microsoft or OpenAI or Anthropic, then it's only a few months before Satya tells his investors buddies and the bubble pops.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I find this unlikely... IMO I think they are hedging in both directions.

    Personally I like the idea of local AI. open source models that you an control, decide, and use smartly, sort your things etc... and not pay an absurd cost or link up.

    Personally I think MS is actually betting on the opposite. IE they had a prototype windows that was basically just an AI prompt, no start menu etc... and applications just "streamed".

    IMO I think that's more of the goal, use the data center buildout to drive up hardware prices, until people cannot afford a basic PC. Sell thin clients... then sell us "access" to compute in a form where we own nothing, but pay by the processes used etc...

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I'm pretty sure local models still induce pyschosis and hallucinate. Maybe the cat's out of the bag, but they still suck.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    They absolutely do suck, but I can see some practical uses for them. IE I can see LLM's as useful in localized specialized uses. for me I'd really like basically LLM as a like calendar, scheduling kind of thing, also say translating home assistant commands through a voice assistant to make it figure out actual intent etc..., nothing super mission critical, but also mostly things I wouldn't want any 3rd party service that could change the rules for me, share them to others etc...

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    I agree it's a hedge, but I think it's a pretty big admission that the writing is on the wall.

    Given how much Windows has invested in cloud AI, that they are encouraging developers--the sweetest plum, the people most likely to pay for cloud AI--a local environment is a pretty big admission. This is the sort of thing corporations that have the ability to control markets don't do unless they think the market is going to leave them behind.

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  • [–] 60 points 2 months ago

    You believed Microslop once, that's on them. You believed Microslop twice, that's on you.

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  • [–] 44 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Is this their follow up to the wildly successful Project Test Everything In Production?

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  • [+] 36 points 2 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 51 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    You need 64 GB or RAM to use it? Seems like it's just a marketing gimmick to find dumb developers who can afford 64GB of RAM in the first place. Kind of like that "I am Rich" app....

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Some of us bought our 64gb of ram when it was cheap.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I have 128gb. I didn't need 128gb but it was a good deal and thought fuck it, i spent too much into AM4 anyway might as well go all in and not bother with AM5 for another four years if ever.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    Zero details about what clutter they're going to remove...

    E: Reading the original Windows release does not mention anything at all about decluttering. They do call it "distraction-free" at one point, but no elaboration on what that means...

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  • [–] 22 points 2 months ago*

    The goal, really, is to cut the crud out of Windows to create a more Linux-like experience.

    LOL. I'll just keep using Linux, thank you very much. Great article though:

    […] demanding 64GB of RAM in the age of the RAMaggedon seems inexcusable. (Especially because Microsoft's partnership with OpenAI and its overall AI push is a big reason memory prices have skyrocketed.)

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Microslop must be getting tired of all the winning.

    /s, obviously

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago

    "Our new product is our old product with fewer kicks in the face."

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    I’m sure the event viewer, resource monitor, etc will support hidpi with this right and it’s not just gonna be another Ui layer painted on top of all the old ones like a shitty apartment where you can cut the wall and count the layers of paint

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    Why doesn't Microsoft just use AI to fix their shit products? I thought AI was the future and Microsoft is OpenAI's largest shareholder so this should be a slam dunk.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    If it was "clutter free", it would not need 64GB. It might even work with 4GB or less.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    If they actually cut the bloat and had a bare bones system it would be a half decent OS. It would be able to get away with less ram and faster response. The only issue is that would not look good for there stock value.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    While we're at it, a real CLI, please. Running a full GUI and popping up a Power Shell window doesn't count.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I don't understand, do you not like Windows Terminal? I have found it to be one of the better parts of Windows 11. It isn't perfect, but miles better than cmd.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    they probably don't like having to run a full gui for basic text commands control

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago*

    Yeah, I was referring to Windows Server Core. They had an opportunity to implement a proper CLI and marketed it that way. Instead it still runs the full GUI, but just sets cmd.exe as the shell instead of explorer.exe

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    You had me for the first half

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago

    Win 11 IOT enterprise LTSC already exists and doesn't even require a TPM.

    Unless this is a legitimate channel for regular users to get IOT enterprise LTSC, this is a non-story. The thing we want already exists, they just refuse to sell it.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Fool me once… maybe we can try to fool them for the hundredth time.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    lol no that won't happen

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Clearly, the focus is on local AI development β€” a timely move as cloud AI token costs start to rise.

    AI token costs are only rising for people with low AI proficiency who compensate for that by just using expensive models for everything. For others, the costs are dropping quite a lot, largely thanks to Chinese models (GLM, Kimi, Qwen, etc.)

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It will be interesting to see what the price point is for Zenith, and the hardware needed to run it.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I would pay like big bucks for a no nonsense interference that just ran shit i wanted without 900 services doing god knows what

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