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[–] 54 points 3 months ago
[–] 25 points 3 months ago (13 children)

English acting like it’s not a fucked up language where “the big, red, round, wrapped box” is fine but “the wrapped, round, red, big box” is wrong.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It sounds unnatural to me as a native speaker, but I don't know that it's "wrong". Even the Germanic languages as a family don't consistently have the same order for words like that, which is neat.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Oh, we know it's fucked up. I still can't spell recieve and receipt and I have to look up pretty much every single new word I learn to find out how it's pronounced.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    I thought through it and I’d wager a stiff draught that it ought not be so rough, though as I’m taught, it’s nought to cough at that a sturdy, taut bough would snap under the weight of its idiosyncrasies.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    It's only wrong in how it makes your soul feel. Gramatically, it's okay.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Oh, no, it's wrong grammatically too, they just don't teach this unless you study linguistics. Most of all languages with fixed word order and some others have a natural order of adjectives. Tom Scott has a great vid about it.

    Yes, Russian has an adjective order too. “A big old blue car” would be «большая старая синяя машина», saying «синяя большая старая машина» implies that “big old car” is a specific term.

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    [–] 68 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    I understand all of these languages.

    but I also never have sex.

    life is full of trade-offs.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah but I have you tagged as manosphere, so that is probably a you problem.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    oh and how do you label yourself then?

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I have them tagged as judgmental lmao

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago*

    Where are all these labels coming from? I don't even see an option to tag individual users across the platform with labels.

    Edit: Typed that all out, then hit the settings button, and what do you know, it's right there.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    How do I unlearn languages?

    I know Hungarian, English, and a very little Japanese. I feel really lonely.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    You speak Hun-glish? I knew a little old lady way back in the day that spoke Hun-glish. As a medic, it took several conversations before I could even begin to understand her spoken symptoms.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (15 children)

    Russian doesn't have definite/indefinite articles?

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Neither does Polish. I know at least one polaka who confuses the/a(n) 15% of the time.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    One of my Polish colleagues, who otherwise speaks pretty perfect English, seems to choose he/she/it at random when putting sentences together. Which is fine for objects, but misleading for people. "I saw a friend yesterday and she said such-and-such" for a male friend, and so on.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    it doesn't really use article at all.

    it's highly cased, the cases and inflection do all the work.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    That doesn't sound more simple.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    English has strict word order and all these stupid helper words, how is that simpler?

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    I think it's the case with most Slavic languages. My wife's native tongue is Serbian, and knowinf when and how to use articles was one the hardest parts of learning English for her.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Most (if not all) Slavic-family languages do not. Neither do Japanese nor Korean. Some languages have a partial system (i.e. no a/an but the to show definiteness). Some languages have both but do it differently (Scandanavian languages suffix the definite article on nouns, but the indefinite precedes the noun like in English). Languages are messy and neat.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Persian(Farsi) also doesn't have a word for "The". We just say the word. There's also no gender prefixes. The whole language is gender neutral.

    Our ancestors were really up to something thousands of years ago.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    In English, there is an implied difference between “the girl downstairs was playing violin” (‘the girl’ implying expected knowledge - “oh, her”) versus “a girl downstairs was playing violin” (‘a girl’ - random, likely unknown).

    More broadly “a thing” - one of many, “the thing” - a specific one.

    How would that translate to Farsi?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago*

    Don't know about Farsi, but in Russian you would have to declare your knowledge and specificity of the subject. You can transmit some of that information by changing word emphasis, but it's not very clear.

    As for your sentences I would translate them as:

    1. The girl downstairs was playing violin → Девушка [girl] внизу [downstairs] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].
    2. A girl downstairs was playing violin - Внизу [downstairs] девушка [girl] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

    The first one puts more emphasis on the "girl". The second one puts more emphasis on "downstairs", almost suggesting that the identity of the girl doesn't matter, kinda "some girl who happened to be downstairs". But it is not as explicit as a definite/indefinite article for sure.

    If you want to make it certain that the identity of the girl doesn't matter, you could use an adjective to that extent: Внизу [downstairs] какая-то девушка [some girl] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

    If you want to make it certain that both you and the person you're talking to know about the girl, you can use a determiner: Та девушка [that girl] внизу [downstairs] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago*

    We do the opposite. If something is known we just say it.

    "The girl(1) is playing(2) violin(3) downstairs(4)"

    دختر(۱) در طبقه‌ی پایین(۴) ویالن(۳) مینوازد(۲)

    To refer to an unknown thing we add a prefix ی to the thing

    A girl -> دختری
    The girl -> دختر

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I guess the is implied, count is explicit. A thing becomes one thing and the thing becomes thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Is the number one used like "a" then? Like a direct translation of the 2 phrases would be "Girl downstairs is playing the violin." and "one girl downstairs is playing the violin." As opposed to English using the/a respectively?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    And it kinda has me thinking what all of that extra fat really does for a language. I never feel confused about meaning when speaking Persian, so the the/he/she/it/they/them really can't be doing that much heavy lifting if you can just completely ignore it and have a perfectly functioning language without it.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Wait till you hear about Chinese measure words. Check out that table.

    https://studycli.org/learn-chinese/chinese-measure-words/

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    Lithuanian: ""

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Czech is even worse than German.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Elaborate.
    I thought there wasn't a word for "the".

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Never mind. I didnt realize it was for "the". You're correct, there is no "the" in Czech. I saw the German part and i was triggered by Czech cases (7 of them).

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    I'm guessing it also has vocative, which russian lost on the way

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Latin is also the cat

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I think this is the first time I've seen this meme format with more than two panels.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    We don't have an equivalent of a/an/the in lithuanian either =w= but we do have definite adjective forms, which is kind of like saying the, so there's that

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    ETO TOM

    TOM MEDIC

    thanks duolingo

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Ōlelo Hawaiʻi: ke / ka

    Depending on the first letter of the next word.

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  • [+] 18 points 3 months ago (20 children)
  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago* (15 children)

    Quite the statement for an English comment. English spelling is nonsensical and in desperate need of a major reform. RobWords even made the case for using runes again as it would probably fix a lot of issues already. The language simply isn't made for Latin letters.

    But I don't want to make this a sole whataboutism comment. Each language poses it's own challenges. I will say that changing how roughly 100 million speak is easier said than done and would destroy a lot of culture. It would be much easier to force everyone to speak a different language entirely.

    Personally I don't think it should or could be done at all. Unlike a spelling reform that English needs desperately and German had plenty of recently. There is nothing wrong with a language being complicated but there's plenty wrong with arbitrary spelling if you ask me.

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  • [+] 6 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    The point of languages it to be simple and efficient, and they should evolve to that goal eventually.

    That's one hell of an assumption to bring to the table. There is no point to language, no end goal towards which they must, or even should evolve. They're a natural creation of humans to facilitate communication, but coming from human beings, they're naturally quite irregular and odd, at times.

    I mean, I get it that German isn't a cakewalk to pick up, but you're also complaining about the unreasonable complexity in one of the less morphologically complex European languages. Take a gander at Polish, Icelandic, Basque, or Finnish, and German will probably seem quite charming and quaint with its handful of cases and corresponding forms of the articles.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    But the point of a language is not to spread to the most people, it is for the peoples using it being able to use it in a way that makes it possible to communicate with their own in a way that makes sense within the local population, its culture and history.

    Different languages have a different learning curve based on what language you grew up with. What is hard for you might be a cakewalk for someone coming from a different language, especially if you are coming from a different family of languages.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago*

    here is an evolution and there is a goal, as you said, to communicate

    I would argue that this is just humans attributing intent to a natural process that has none, and is the same sort of erroneous conception as when people say that history has some grand end goal it's working towards. I believe this is amply demonstrated in the lack of success found by Esperanto and similar conlangs that were deliberately constructed in order to be easy to learn for a wide range of people as a neutral lingua franca. If what you claim about the purpose and goal of language were true, these conlangs should have seen widespread adoption and be the most widely spoken languages today, rather than their current status as quirky ideas that are mostly of no interest to people who aren't complete nerds for studying languages.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    What's complex is very relative to you and what you grew up with. I am not picking up english for everything because it's simpler and I won't convince my friends either.

    Can't even get them off Whatsapp 😂 Let's speak Esperanto then ..

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago*

    My native language isn’t English in case you were assuming that.

    I wasn't assuming that, don't worry. That's why I phrased my message like that.

    I guess I agree to disagree here. Language is an expression of culture and heritage too. I would never speak German differently now just because of a reform. Neither would 99% of German speakers I assume. Yet we freely integrate English words into our language because it feels natural. These English words often come and go anyway so I'm not actually concerned the German language will become deluded from Internet lingo or anything.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago*

    Even Japanese, which I touched for a few years wasn’t nearly as bad.

    I think this is a 'to each his own' sort of situation. I like the idea of kanji but am terrible at memorizing them. I'll take German grammar over kanji any day. If you specifically mean grammar, Japanese does have its own challenges as well.

    The point of languages it to be simple and efficient

    According to whom? The point of language is to communicate information. There are high-context and low-context ways to do this. There are direct and indirect ways to do this, all of which encode certain cultural meaning. If you studied Japanese, think about all the indirectness, honorifics, etc. that aren't there to be simple, they're there for cultural and societal reasons, even if mostly just historical in some cases.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Would love to hear more about why English isn't made for Latin letters

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    I don't know about Latin letters more generally, but at least the issue with the default Latin alphabet, there just aren't enough letters to represent the sounds used in English phonetically. The English language has between 14-25 vowels, depending on dialect and accent, and a further 24 consonants. When the Latin alphabet only has 26 letters, you're naturally going to run into situations where one letter has to represent multiple sounds. With that said, I don't see any reason, aside from the sheer cultural inertia of hundreds of years not doing so, why English couldn't address the issue with diacritics on different letters to achieve the necessary number of unique letters to represent all of the sounds found in English.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Gendered nouns in German are just as stupid and arbitrary as spelling in English. Why is a pencil masculine? Why is beer neutral but coffee masculine? Why is school feminine?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago*

    It's that way because languages grow naturally and are part of a culture. Although if you have breakfast with people from different parts of Germany or even just different households, you may find yourself arguing about the nouns of a popular nougat cream brand. It's quite controversial for some reason.

    Whatever the case, the same can't be said about spelling, however. Writing is often reformed in many languages many times and it generally works. A language changes the way we think as much as the way we think shapes how we speak. You can't really reform how people speak from the top. It either happens or it doesn't.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    As an English speaker yeah we should switch back to runes

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    It won't fix your Franco Germanic Viking pigeon language though. How would it? Almost like any pronunciation is unique and needs to be learned

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    Then you end up with less flexibility and more fixed word order. English used to have cases though they've almost entirely collapsed at this point. German is fine as it is. Learn some grammar and it will become second nature.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    if you learn this in your first years of life you don't even know why what you're saying is correct. Native speakers get this wrong too but will come off as dummies when they do. If you want to sound smart there's no way around it.

    Foreigners will always have a very hard time with this.No chance to reform this btw. .

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Ha! All three of the big East Asian languages also don't have articles. (It's also why we drop them all the time when learning to speak English.)

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    I don't get it, is Russian the worst here? I understand Finnish and Polish are pretty difficult in terms of these things as well (?).

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    There is no word for 'The' in Russian

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Is it done in Russian by prefixes or suffixes or something else, or do they just not have that form for nouns?

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    There's no prefix, so when "the" is used for emphasis it's completely lost in translation. "The Great Gatsby" is just "Великий Гэтсби". Though that little ий hides the same complexity as german as it implies male and that this is used in a sentence just to name something. If Gatsby was female it'd be "Великая Гэтсби", and if it was something ungendered, like a place somewhere, itd be "Великое Гэтсби". And on that part about placement in the sentence, it could be something like [an achievement of] Великого(male) / Великой(female) Gatsby, like when talking about belongings or actions of someone; Or [I gave something to] Великому/Великой, and a few orhers. As you can see there are duplocates and ambiguities. Add present/past/future tenses to the mix and it becomes a complete mess.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    So it's done by suffixes. Okay cool, thank you for explaining! 🙏

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Except that's all gender rather than the article function (distinguishing if something is specific or generic). A language without articles doesn't distinguish between "get in the car" and "get in a car" and instead rely on the person listening to know whether there's a specific car to get into

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Also English: This, That, Those, These

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    Hebrew:

    the: prefix "ha" ה-‏

    in the: prefix "ba" ב-‏

    to the: prefix "la" ל-‏

    example:

    book: ספר sefer

    the book: הספר hasefer

    in the book: בספר basefer

    to the book: לספר lasefer

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    English is the/the

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    I see french i upvote.

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