From the technical side anyone can spin up their own Lemmy instance and view all votes, but I'm curious at what the community's perspective on how "private" that is. I think Mbin already shows upvoters? Piefed allows anonymous voting. I also know there are sites which show all voting history, but assuming those are fairly disliked.

My general questions to the community: - Do you expect your votes to be private, or just not shown in the UI? - Would per-voter votes showing up on another aggregator platform bother you, even though your instance already shares them with other servers?

For context I'm the dev doing some two way bridge interop between atproto + Threadiverse, in atproto the votes/likes are generally publicly accessible, you just look at the users repo through something like pdsls.dev, they're readable and archivable by anyone. In my opinion this isn't that big of a problem since it's fairly hard to look at and discern (Ex all my votes: https://pdsls.dev/at://did:plc:lmdkqemqrqnfiix72pyjhfey/social.coves.feed.vote). Ultimately trying to figure out if there's already a mutual understanding that they are public and we can just mirror them or whether they should stay hidden as an aggregate.

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[–] 92 points 1 week ago (7 children)

not. at all. i consider anything i put here akin to standing on my nearest street corner during rush hour, shouting into the darkness

confused how anyone could think anything otherwise.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Yup. Anyone expecting privacy on a federated service has been inherently misinformed about how federation works. Everything I do here is assumed to be public.

    And I also assume that state agencies are running their own instances, to suck up as much data as they can. They can just federate with the big instances, and then the data gets firehosed directly to them via the built-in federation. It’s why AI scrapers on the fediverse are so frustrating. The scraper could just spin up an instance and passively collect all of the same data via federation. But instead, they just DDOS the instance owners.

    Also, the users who bitch and moan about downvotes (because they can see who downvoted them) are pure comedic gold. I have seen users try to call out the specific people who downvoted them. Like they’ll edit their comment with something like “hey @{user1}, @{user2}, @{user3}, care to explain why you downvoted?” The only thing that ever accomplishes is getting them buried in even more spite-downvotes.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    confused how anyone could think anything otherwise

    Because you can't see them by default. Just because there are lots of techies on here doesn't mean everyone thinks about how it all works.

    I think it's much better to make it very obvious that votes are public so new users don't accidentally think they're anonymous.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    I guarantee you multiple individuals be they personal or corporate have spun up their own Lemmy instances and are scraping the shit out of what is here.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Exactly, so it's important for everyone to know that their every action is very public

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  • [–] -2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    If you want privacy you shouldn't be using a computer. Full stop.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I get your point but it's so reductive that it's kind of unhelpful. Sure if the CIA are coming after you then you are pretty fucked, but there are so many tiny things that the casual user can do to make massive improvements, and saying that none of it matters if they even use a computer means they won't bother even trying.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago

    I never said don't care about it. But people need to realize that if they don't want someone to know something the first thing is don't fucking say it.

    There is so much The Internet does not know about me because I don't post it ever. It's like people don't understand that.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    They're not private at all, I've never been under the illusion that they were.

    I like it, have some guts, stand on business. If people want to downvote they should be willing to attach their name to it, internet points are fake anyway.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    My issue with votes is being able to profile users on a pretty deep level. It may not matter all that much now but once bad actors like corporations, scammers, stalkers, etc. start getting involved then there's a lot negatives that it would bring with it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    That's understandable; to me though, the user tracking is going to happen. If not votes then comments, if not comments the how long you stayed per page or some other engagement metric.

    These days you almost have to assume an adversarial relationship with the internet. You have to assume you're being aggressively tracked and profiles built and, if it's part of your threat model, take steps to obfuscate that.

    I totally support someone just lurking and not commenting or voting, especially if they're doing it for OPSEC reasons. I also don't have a huge issue with people having alt accounts for different purposes and might even encourage it, again for OPSEC reasons.

    A solid argument could be made for removing voting completely and I'm not sure I'd disagree with it; but due to the nature of federation if there's voting, it'll be public.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 week ago* (10 children)

    Votes are not private and never will be.

    There have been some discussions about whether Threadiverse software should only federate out the number of votes and perhaps some anonymised voter IDs, rather than information that identifies individual users. This would prevent vote snooping via sites like Lemvotes. However, even if something like that were implemented, instance admins would still be able to snoop on their own users if they so wished. So imo, it's better to just accept that votes are public information.

    Personally I don't see the issue with it. My principle when it comes to voting is upvoting stuff I want others to see and only downvote things I don't think anyone would want to see (like spam). So if for some odd reason someone is interested enough to check my voting history, I don't care. What's the worst that could happen? Someone on the internet disagrees with my votes? Oh no! How will I ever survive?!

    As a side note, Lemmy's developers seem to have a strong opinion that voter information shouldn't be displayed publicly. For example, here's an issue they opened in the Mbin repo. While I disagree with their stance on vote visibility, Nutomic has a valid point there: Lemmy doesn't mark voting activity as public when federating it out, so there's an argument to be made that other software should not display individual votes coming from Lemmy.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    What’s the worst that could happen?

    Some data brokers looking through your preferences and building a profile out of you, I guess.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Sure, but what they're gonna do with that is the question. Like even if there is a profile on my Lemmy account, which ads are they going to send me? How? Where is that data going to be worth anything?

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  • [–] 12 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I mean I live in a country whose political environment was irrevocably changed because of Cambridge Analytica. And facebook's algorithm is partly being blamed for the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar. It's not really about you that I'm worried with, but for others in general.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Lemmy's developers seem to have a strong opinion that voter information shouldn't be displayed publicly.

    I guess they shouldn't have made votes public then... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    Well, if we wanna still have voting actions federate between instances and different services (meaning everyone can see the total vote counts, not just the votes given by users on single instance), that information has to be publicly sent to other instances. Like I said, I believe there have been some discussions about ways to anonymize outgoing voting actions, but I imagine there would be quite a few issues to think about. For instance, doing so would probably make it much easier for bad actors to send bogus votes.

    The difference of opinion is that Lemmy's devs believe that services receiving voting data from Lemmy shouldn't publicly display individual votes, but only the aggregate counts (just like Lemmy itself does). Many others, myself included, think this approach creates a false sense of privacy, potentially leading some users to believe that their votes are private when they actually aren't, especially given that services like Lemvotes exist.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 week ago

    Completely public

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  • [–] 24 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Lemvotes shows votes. So, it’s not private.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 week ago

    Not at all, and I believe that’s the point.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I don't expect much privacy on a shared public space like the fediverse. If I wanted privacy, I'd spin up a new profile every day/week, and use an external bookmark manager to save stuff

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  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago

    Data has to federate, so nothing is going to really be private like you mention. I think it's unreasonable to expect anything otherwise. I don't see a point to hiding votes because of this. If someone starts stalking or harassing their voters for some reason, have a reporting system and handle that.

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  • [–] 33 points 1 week ago

    I wish my votes were even more public. If I've taken the time to downvote your bullshit/nonsense, I want you to know it was me. Same with upvotes.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I assume there’s no privacy whatsoever, and I wouldn’t believe anyone who told me otherwise.

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  • [–] 14 points 6 days ago (1 child)

    About 10 years ago I decided that the only way I could proceed forward in life is to automatically assume I'm being watched and listened to always. This has nothing to do with paranoia and everything to do with the nature of tech ownership and capitalism.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    On Lemmy? As others have said, they're automatically federated and so anyone can see them.

    On Piefed though? I have a user setting where I can choose whether my votes federate and I can override that default on a given post if I choose with a hot key. That's how it should be. IMHO, more of y'all should use Piefed.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    That's kind of neat, but why would it matter if your votes do or don't federate?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Like someone else said, how would you feel if someone was collecting all user votes across the threadiverse and tracking who likes and dislikes each post, say about politics or just a news story?

    We are mostly / usually anonymous here but like everything online, I wouldn't totally count on that. Not to sound like too much of a crackpot, but "Enemy of the state" could be a real label some government could put on you, based on your voting, in the future.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago

    I don't expect my votes to be private, but I will vote as if they were. People reading too much into why someone might have voted a certain way and trying to shame them for it is embarrassing, I'm not going to constrain myself to reasons for voting that are immediately legible to anyone via only one bit of information just for their sake. If I want to downvote something with, for instance, a political message I agree with but the person phrased it in a way that goes against my pet peeves, I'm gonna do that, and I think the ideal would be for these numbers not to be taken very personally or seriously.

    So basically I'd say it's bad taste to put it in a UI, but only so far as it encourages people to be weird about it, and ultimately that's on them.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago

    zero, it's on the internet, it:s not "private"

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago

    Its like sitting near a window basically, people on the sidewalk are gonna have trouble seeing you with just their eyes (i mean like most sidewalks are quite far away to the window because of front yards) but anyone could get a camera with zoom lens and see your face.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago

    I have no expectations of privacy on any social media, including this one. I'm here to yell my very important opinions at anyone who'll listen.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Literally none I basically assumed that anything I do on the internet can be read by anyone at any time. I'm still a fucking freak because they'll have to kill me to stop me from being freaky. If I die unexpectedly the government did it. Never forget that.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago

    Me personally I would say that private votes are better if possible. But you should be able to filter when you're logged in what you upvoted and downvoted. That's how I would like it ideally.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 days ago

    zero private.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago

    I realize they aren't private and don't care.

    I vote on such a small minority of things that those few things I do vote on, I have no problem with people knowing it was me.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago

    Well they aren’t private and it doesn’t matter

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago

    From the technical side anyone can spin up their own Lemmy instance and view all votes,

    Or just view them on lemvotes.org.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    Personally, I don’t care too much about my votes being public. I vote very thoughtfully and try to upvote posts and comments that add to the community and I downvote misinformation.

    But, I think people should be able to choose. I do think there are many valid reason for them to be private.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    I don't worry about that. I have no expectation that up/downvotes be not tied to my username.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago*

    On a privacy scale of 1 to 100: 2.

    Mods can see it, all someone has to do is spin up a private instance and they can see it too, plus there's Lemvotes. It's kinda neat like I can see that I upvoted 8,052 posts and downvoted 17 from that account, or from this account I upvoted 15,327 comments and downvoted 86.

    Some instances though - like PieFed.social - have defederated from Lemvotes, so anyone's vote offered to a community on that instance will not be counted by Lemvotes. But ofc that's merely one of many tools for me to find the data, whereas if someone spins up their own instance then they - or a community mod - can still see it by other means.

    The reason I went into all this detail is bc if is relevant to your purpose that not everyone on the Threadiverse shares the same view about vote privacy. Some instances will defederate from yours in an attempt to retain control over the visibility of votes from their own. So perhaps you can devise some mechanism to allow admins the choice to opt-out, without having to defederate from your entire instance wholesale?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    Stand by your vote.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    Zero. Use this site with a VPN and assume any data you put on here is being harvested.

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  • Nothing I do on the Fediverse is private lmao.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    They are not, it's akin to shouting in the rain. Most people will be inside not getting wet, but there people that either like the rain, or get paid to stand in it

    The lemmy vote viewer is quite limited but I suspect that there are a few servers that have spun their own DB queries and charting:

    [edit spelling]

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    No idea. I don't like public voting and only do it on rare occasions. I was doing it a lot to get rid of things from my feed but rimu put in a read button so now Im back to almost never doing it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    I vote by using a whiteboard marker on my monitor, that way no one can steal my lucky charms.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Zero. Upvotes are a show of appreciation and I don't see why anyone would want that to be private. When it comes to downvotes, if you wouldn't want someone to know you downvoted something, you can't stand by that decision and so shouldn't have downvoted in the first place. Public reactions (alongside the self moderation features) keeps the fediverse honest and prevents the hostile type of downvote spamming you see on other platforms like reddit.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Are we supposed to be thoughtful with our upvotes and downvotes? I've just been going ham as I please.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    Be as thoughtful as you want to be knowing that if you choose to downvote a whole bunch of comments, someone can know it was you. If someone knows that a single person is downvoting every single one of their comments they can block them if they wish. My main point is just that if you don't want someone knowing you upvoted or downvoted them, just don't do it. It would mostly just be trolls who want to hide it anyway

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  • [–] 3 points 6 days ago

    There are private things on the internet?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    In my opinion this isn’t that big of a problem since it’s fairly hard to look at and discern

    You are like one LLM prompt away from a website that makes it fairly easy to look at and discern so that’s not really a valid argument

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    I thought there was a user search that showed you what they upvoted or downvoted on. To me that could be abused by a party like the US border agents, or ads to check what type of things you've marked as a yay or nay

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  • [–] 2 points 6 days ago

    Fully public

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    ☑️ No

    ✅ Yes

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  • [–] 2 points 6 days ago

    Not very.

    Which is fine with me

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  • [–] 2 points 6 days ago

    Better question? Do votes ultimately matter? Some instances show who voted, some don’t, some don’t even count downvotes. So in the end, who cares?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago

    Not at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 days ago

    Was already aware for a while of reactions being public for anyone with enough expertise to see.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago

    I didn’t know that administrators or moderators could see the votes. So they can’t be considered completely private.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago

    do it mang.

    I downvote Nazi shit and upvote funny shit. I got nothing to hide.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

    imho:

    1. public, just not shown in ui
    2. would bother me if shown near the comment/post, since that would change the meaning of the vote: on lemmy only the total is shown there, sometime I do things like upvoting a comment I don't fully agree with because that "aggregate" is too low in my opinion (or the opposite of that), which make sense only if just the total is shown.
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