This always annoys me. I land on a site that's in a language I don't understand (say, Dutch), and I want to switch to something else. I open the language selector and... it's all in Dutch too. So instead of Germany/Deutchland, Romania/România, Great Britain, etc, I get Duitsland and Roemenië and Groot-Brittannië...

How does that make any sense? If I don't speak the language, how am I supposed to know what Roemenië even is? In some situations, it could be easier to figure it out, but in some, not so much. "German" in Polish is "Niemiecki"... :|

Wouldn't it be way more user-friendly to show the names in their native language, like Deutsch, Română, English, Polski, etc?

Is there a reason this is still a thing, or is it just bad UX that nobody bothers to fix?

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[–] 103 points 1 year ago (18 children)

I've seen language switchers with translated language names that were sorted by the English name. So "Deutsch" was sorted under G.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    It's not my fault if the Scrum Master can't provide a proper scope in the ticket. They said change the names, not the sorting.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    The scrum master is not a product owner and shouldn't be providing scope or anything for that matter in tickets. No wonder agile is hated and dying, it's been corrupted beyond recognition by people who have no reading comprehension.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The product owner often doesn't understand technology well enough to know that mapping labels and sorting are different. They don't know what they don't know. The SM needs to help bridge that gap.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Sure, part of the job of the SM is to teach a PO that they need to research the market, but bridging the gap sounds like your saying the SM should find these things out for themselves and that's just not true. The SM by definition is less technically minded that the PO. They deal with processes, data and people, not with product specs and market research.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    No wonder agile is hated

    I think that the basic ideas are reasonable. Keep in touch with your team and evaluate the current situation, track progress, stuff like that.

    It's just that the excessive codification of the practices becomes overbearing.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    True, what you described is basically all there is to it, but in my opinion the corrupted versions where the SM is doing backlog management or where the rest of the company structure doesn't change just the dev team are more damaging than the more codified versions of it.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Out of curiosity, would you put Deutsch before or after 日本語?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Before, since D and G are both before N ("nihongo") and J ("japanese")

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think his point was that they are using different alphabets, and therefore can't be sorted "alphabetically"... there's no N or J in 日本語. In order to sort alphabetically, we would have to pick an alphabet, which will in some cases contradict the alphabet of the language's native speakers.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    What language would you sort them by?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    If everything is displayed in the same language then sort by the displayed language. You don't want to have to search for Spanish near the E letter because it's sorted by the original espanol in the background since that's not what you as the user sees.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    And if they're all displayed in their own language?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    byte order, nobody is happy but at least it's sort of equitable

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Byte order in which Unicode encoding? UTF-16LE?

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  • Why would anyone pick UTF-16LE? All the disadvantages of UTF-8, none of the advantages. The only reason to use it is when dealing with legacy systems that used it.

    Code point order would be somewhat decent, but even better is to use the user's chosen coallation order from their locale settings if possible.

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  • [–] 94 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Perfectly comprehensible if you speak english, look:

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's Dutch uwu speak, but the real version would not be much better: "Oeps! De trein is stuk. Wij zijn heel hard aan het werk om dit te maken. Misschien kan je beter fietsen."

    (Oops! The train is broken. We're working very hard to repair it. Maybe you'd be better off biking.)

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    The reality is, it varies.

    I just opened the language picker on the first site I had in my browser tabs (happened to be Epic games) and they display the language list using native names for the target language, rather than current language (screenshot attached)

    I agree it's much better to do it this way.

    As a developer, why it doesn't happen sometimes could just be by accident. If you intentionally set out to localise a site and put all text and menu elements into localisation files to be translated, then the language names are going to end up getting translated too. It takes conscious thought and UX design to realise that it's better for accessibility if that single part of the site is actually just static text, regardless of what language is selected.

    And before anyone suggests using country flags in your language picker as a cool solution - please don't, because that sucks too. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between countries and languages and so the flag approach is a flawed compromise at best, and actually insulting at worst.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yeah okay but imagine clicking the option with an Israeli flag and suddenly the website is in Arabic. That's too funny to pass up.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Probably not so funny other way around hah

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  • [–] 107 points 1 year ago* (23 children)

    It would be way more user-friendly to use the language in the HTTP headers. As a web developer the fact that websites are too stupid to do this really grinds my gears. This is just as bad as assuming the language/region from the geolocation of the IP address.

    C’mon guys…

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  • It wouldn't be too much work to hook the request language up to a CMS and then a translation service. You could produce in a couple of popular languages upfront and then when someone with a new language visits a landing page, translate it at high priority (few seconds), then the cascade the next most likely click-throughs in order of popularity (or callout weight if it's new). The translations can then be queued for review, and it will mean you only translate when you need to, and the user only experiences a second or so delay as the translation streams the content above the fold.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    the last one piss me off so much, especially when they redirect you and you don't have anyway to load the English version...

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It’s like all the developers in the field got handed access to some IP dataset and they’re just looking for reasons to use it. Screw the users I guess?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Even worse when a version is actually different. I had to check the US prices in a store once, it decided "nah mate, your IP's not American, clearly you're a bloody idiot, here's your native version" and even when I manually changed the url to US English, as they did languages based on part of the path, it still decided clearly I must not know what I want. I couldn't even try to infer the price, as the product didn't exist on my version of the site.

    And aside from that and language pet peeves, what if you're on Holiday? Or live in an area that speaks a lot of languages close together?

    As Cousin Mose said, the language is in the header, the fact that some web devs decide the IP address is clearly a better way to figure out what language you want is insane

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    My Pixel started giving me distances in miles once because I had the system language to English. I needed to change it to English (German) to show me meters. I don't know if they reverted that but at this point I am too afraid to change it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I have my Google Account set to English, but YouTube still autotranslates all video titles of newer videos to German for some reason...

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    That's just how locales work. When you set the language, you also get the associated date/time representation, unit system, etc

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    But you should be able to set the locale separately from language. You can easily do that on any Unix/Linux system. In your locale.conf, set LANG to your language and all other LC_* variables to your preferred locale.

    Systems that do not allow this are badly designed. For a lot of multilingual people, locale and preferred language are independent.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    My pixel set to Australian English works fine in metric. I presume you chose British English where they use miles rather than kilometres, of course that works for me as I also want Australian spellings

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes, but it doesn't solve the problem. Even when a website does that, they might still have a switcher to let you override.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    We do both.

    A) use the language set by the user in their os/browser B) switcher shows the language name in that language

    Done, easy, etc. IMO the hard part are great translations and designs that work in languages where every word is a novel. And yet, here we are.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Accept Language headers are sadly an easy browser fingerprint. I therefor have it set to English even though that's not my native language.

    There's also the case where you might have misclicked when changing your language, so your argument isn't really a complete solution. It just helps but doesn't fix the main problem.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    If you set your language on a website what’s the difference between them using the header versus using the selected language for fingerprinting?

    I understand what you’re saying but even I, a person who splits all their traffic between three different VPN tunnels and goes way too far with DNS blocking don’t really care about fingerprinting based on language.

    If the person really cares so much they can set the browser language back to English then manually change it on each website they visit. We shouldn’t punish everyone on such a silly privacy preference.

    Edit: Yeah of course just downvote me, don’t bother to engage in any kind of dialog.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'm pretty sure nobody's doing that based on geoip. Client-side, the browser exposes the user's languages choices. And server side, the HTTP header can help. But geoip is totally unreliable, even a broken salesman would not sell that as a feature.

    Well ok they would sell it but get a very heavy glance from the dev team.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Have you used the web and/or VPN lately? I send the language header but am bombarded by content in the wrong language all the time.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    YouTube (and Google in general) has been horrible for multilingual users (and users who want to see content in a different language than the default for whatever country they're browsing from) for quite some time, but lately it's getting downright unusable without untranslator browser extensions.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    this is a region switcher, rather than a language switcher (the website may of course be conflating the two, though)

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Be that as it may, I honestly don't see what difference that would make in regards to OP's point... While it is spmewhat rather ironic, their argument over choice of word(s) in this particular situation is - imo, anyway- not one of semantics, but more of localization.

    Either way, whether this is a language selector or region switcher (or any variation on such a theme for that matter), I believe the point OP was - correctly, if you ask me - making is: Whenever a UX/UI element is needed to prompt for proper display language, each language should be displayed however it appears in its native tongue as opposed to how it appears in whatever language is currently selected.

    As an added bonus, this also solves the problem of a user inadvertently changing the language (or forgetting to lock their workstation when leaving briefly and returning to find it changed to "help them remember to lock their station when not in active use" allegedly... not that that's happened to anyone I know or anything) and being unable to change it back due to not knowing how to spell "English" in Japanese, for example.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Be that as it may, I honestly don’t see what difference that would make in regards to OP’s point…

    OP said that it's from the Fairphone website. The website has separate settings for language and region, language is shown in English and in the language itself, i.e. "Dutch / Nederlands", region is shown in the current language. So the website is actually doing what OP wants.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Ive had multiple situations on websites or in games where i accidentally switched the language to like- japanese or something and then had to fumble around trying to switch it back. On websites at least you can translate to find the right option but i recently installed a game on my steamdeck and the input was all screwed up, and while trying to fix it i accidentally switched the language and then navigated away from the menu. Trying to get back to the right setting with broken input and not understanding anything wasnt fun.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    This should be a universal symbol. Like a flag in the corner you can pretty safely assume might be for language. And then yeah each language listed in that language.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Which flag do we use for English?

    I won't allow the stars and stripes

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    Every time I make a tool like this, I try to wind up any Americans in the company by putting the US flag as English (simplified) and the Union Jack as English

    It's a fun back and forth we have switching it between the two (inevitably someone makes a PR to put it back, and we go on)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I have seen at least one site where they used the English flag. Luckily I have watched the European Cup a few times and could recognize it.

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    because most web developers are morons :/

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    It's more like "localization is hard and you have a week to add support for it"

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  • [+] 19 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Valid comment to some degree, but putting language options in the selected language is always dumber than providing them in the only world language.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    The only thing I know about i18n is that it is an annoying shitload of language installer packages for both firefox and libreoffice ^^ That said, however, how you need training for a localization package to provide a language menu(!) - not the translations, mind you - in English, is beyond me. I can't follow the point you seem to be trying to make. There's no reason to not hardcode (in English) a language selection menu, and then display the list of available site languages (and these should be a country flag with the name of language next to it in what may be the language itself)

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    well obviously you shouldn’t use a Taiwan flag to represent Traditional Chinese if you’re selling in China, dumbass, you shouldn’t need special training to know that… [..] at least a few of the 8 million Ukrainians who speak Russian probably aren’t keen on identifying themselves in their profile with a Russian flag either”

    fair enough, that is a good point.

    Again, and I feel like I’m repeating myself here, my point isn’t that you’re incorrect, it’s that getting on your high horse about it and calling people dumb

    No, I wasn't calling people dumb, I was calling "most web developers" morons, and I stand by that. Most web developers are morons. And the language topic at hand is just one of many symptoms of that. Way more annoying than that is that almost all websites have been fubared with stupid frameworks and interactive sites transmitting each keypress and reloading parts of the page while you are trying to use them / whatever was in your focus before. Interactive websites can be done right, but most of the time they are not, and it's the fault of stupid marketing people and crappy web developers / designers who do NOT refuse to implement shitty marketing ideas.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Most web developers are morons in the sense that most people are morons. They're not especially moronic.

    A lot of problems on the web aren't coming from the developers. They're management pushing for stuff.

    Like, at an old company the UI had really bad mouse tunnels (mouse over menus and sub menus that close if you mouse out). Terrible interface. But someone in management liked it and no one would approve changing it. Easy to look at it and say we're all morons, but most of the stupid there was from leadership.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Like, at an old company the UI had really bad mouse tunnels (mouse over menus and sub menus that close if you mouse out). Terrible interface. But someone in management liked it and no one would approve changing it. Easy to look at it and say we’re all morons, but most of the stupid there was from leadership.

    If more people had a backbone and spoke out / refused to implement shitty stuff, this wouldn't happen. Also, many design choices are entirely on the web developer. Thus morons. I'm not gonna change my opinion until websites become usable again, you're wasting your time on me.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    If more people had a backbone and spoke out / refused to implement shitty stuff, this wouldn’t happen.

    Thus, it's more than just the web developers 😄 . Product needs to have a backbone to stand up to their boss, too. I fought really hard to get rid of the mouse tunnels at that job, but was blocked by product and one of the directors of eng. It was mostly [office] political nonsense

    Also, many design choices are entirely on the web developer.

    Not at most of the companies I've worked out. There's a design person or team. Eng can give feedback, but it's pretty rare for them to be given a blank check.

    I’m not gonna change my opinion until websites become usable again, you’re wasting your time on me.

    That's fine. Some web developers are morons, but some of everyone are morons. We can partially agree.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The languages in a language menu should each be written in their own language. So German should be "Deutsch", English should be "English", Japanese should be "日本語", etc.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    If people really insist then at least have a flag emoji

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    No, flags for languages are a bad thing.

    • If you put a Swiss flag, what language would it be? (They speak 4 languages in Switzerland)
    • What flag would you use for English? The UK? The US?

    More details here: https://localizejs.com/articles/why-using-flag-icons-can-confuse-your-users

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I mean, if they insist on everything being in Dutch then at least include a flag. If you're going this deep on the UK obviously having the list in the native language is preferable.

    The reason for the list above being all in Dutch might be because it's a list of countries, not a list of languages. (I speak some Dutch)

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    that's all fine and dandy until you get a porch of geese angry at you for using the brazilian flag or vice versa

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Unicode consortium stopped accepting new flags. Far, far from all current languages are in there. Don't expect there to be an emoji for every language, and fewer and fewer as the current version ages and flags change

    And that's regardless of that flags are often a poor language selector (south african flag can mean a lot of things), but if you insist then SVGs of what regions you want to support might be a good replacement

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    The language selectors in the system I have built are either English or native. And I can tell you, implementing and verifying over 100 languages in their native writing is quite a challenge.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    You don't speak dutch? 🤮

    /S

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