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[–] 123 points 1 year ago (32 children)

They use facial recognition on us while we are not allowed to see their faces.

These guys need de-masking.

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  • [–] 70 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    They need lifetimes in prison for treason and domestic terrorism.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    We will never get there while they are anonymous. The path to prison starts with de-masking.

    You can’t prosecute what has no identification.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    Every single one of them has a timecard they're punching with a name, collective punishment against the entire agency should be on the table.

    Even those sitting back behind a desk pushing paperwork are enabling the thugs in the streets.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Again though, until you connect their actions on the street, to a face, prosecution will never be possible.

    The need unmasking, on the street.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Charge them all!! It’s a criminal organization.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Deport all alien, some of them are criminal.

    Imprison all of ice, some of them are criminal.

    Same logic.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Not all foreigners are criminals. But all members of a gang are gang members.

    Isn't it illegal in US, to be a member of an organization that has an obviously criminal purpose and/or obviously criminal methods?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    With their mask-wearing they’re practically advertising their methods. We should take the clue. Everyone still has their COVID masks, right?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Not the point. As long as they remain masked there will be no accountability.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Facial recognition can use nose bridge characteristics, eye distance, eye angle, eye color, etc.

    Gait detection can also fingerprint.

    Document everything and there will be accountability.

    If possible, use a zoom lens and get closeups of their eyes. They are unique signatures.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (20 children)

    Eh, I'm fine with them wearing masks. I'm not fine with them breaking the law and not being accountable. If they wear masks (or even if they don't), they need to be ready to show ID and recite their badge number.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    No, they are law enforcement and should be readily identifiable the community they serve. Including their face. Also being masked makes it harder for the people they're interacting with to understand what they're saying. They lose all the non-verbal communication that comes from the face. Them being masked has absolutely zero upside to the public.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    Including their face.

    I don't think this is necessary. What does seeing an officer's face do that a name and badge number doesn't? What about undercover cops? What about the winter when it's cold?

    I think it should only be required that they declare on what authority they're acting when making official actions, like a stop, detainment, or arrest. They should give their name and badge number upon request, in a form that works for the asker (written or verbal, asker's preference).

    If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public. I get that police should follow higher standards (I'm absolutely in favor of ending qualified immunity), but IMO the rules should merely be that police must self identify in a way the public knows they're legitimate law enforcement when using the authority of their position.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them. Undercover cops are a different situation than what ICE is doing and really shouldn't be making arrests IMO. In winter they can take their mask off to interact with people.

    If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public.

    It doesn't. The general public doesn't need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them.

    Sure, I just don't think that's a reasonable thing to require at all times.

    Instead, the public should be free to approach to a safe distance to film, and then attempt to talk with law enforcement when safe. A police officer is required to identify themselves to the suspect due to the fourth amendment. Whether they are required to identify themselves to the public is up to local law, court precedent, and agency policy.

    The general public doesn’t need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.

    Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

    Sure, I just don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to require at all times.

    It is. There's literally no reason they ever need to be masked.

    Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.

    Disagree. Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable so they can't step out of line. Especially during protests. Otherwise we end up with priest getting shot in the eyes with pepper rounds.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (4 children)

    There’s literally no reason they ever need to be masked.

    Cops have rights too. If an officer wants to wear a mask, I don't see any reason to deny them that. They must, however, identify themselves, the risk of someone pretending to be law enforcement is too great.

    Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable

    Agreed, I just don't think masks are the issue here. IMO, officers involved in protest duty should have their badge number on their uniform in a big enough font for a camera to pick up. Likewise, body cameras should be on and recording the entire time.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    They refuse to be held accountable or hold each other accountable across the board. They deserve nothing but to do their fucking job exactly as the public who they serve wills it. If they don't like it they can quit. They have abused any and every bit of latitude they've been given since the inception of police forces. They don't need masks, they don't need privacy while they're working. Any who want to hide should be fired immediately. If they don't have enough integrity to stand behind their actions they're in the wrong line of work.

    They can turn off body cams, or refuse to answer questions of bystanders, or hide their badge numbers. They do it all the time. If they aren't allowed to wear masks at least people will have their faces to go off.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    The solution IMO isn't to make a bunch of rules to try to make them act better, the solution is to increase accountability. That means:

    • end qualified immunity - when tried in court, they should be held to similar standards as citizens
    • change how investigations of police officers happens - AG role should change to protect the people, not the state

    At the same time, we should increase salaries of police officers to encourage good cops instead of power hungry cops, and perhaps have cash rewards for officers who turn in other officers for criminal violations.

    If we focus on laws to force police to act better, they'll just give themselves a pass.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Being able to see their faces increases accountability.

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  • Again, I don't think it really does.

    Let's say I identify an officer that shot a pepper ball at a protester. Let's say I report it to the news, file a complaint, and file a lawsuit. Here's what I expect to happen:

    • news agency runs a small piece on the incident, perhaps naming the officer, perhaps not
    • police does an internal investigation and determines the officer was acting within their duties
    • lawsuit is dropped because I don't have standing (I'm not the victim), and if I did have standing, the agency might get fined and the officer retains their position

    That's not real accountability IMO, real accountability would result in the officer getting investigated by the AG or something and potentially jailed for using excessive force.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    What badge number? They won’t do that. They need demasking.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Every officer has a badge number that uniquely identifies then, and they are legally required to provide that information. When filing a complaint or a lawsuit, you'll provide their name and badge number. If they refuse, you provide as much information as you can (area, time of day, type of vehicle, vehicle number, other officers and badge numbers involved, etc) so they can track the officer down.

    I don't know how ICE works specifically, but many police departments require their officers to carry business cards with that information and hand them out upon request.

    Civilians have a right to verify that the people involved are actually officers and have a right to identify individual offices to report misconduct.

    I don't care if officers wear masks, I only care that they can be uniquely identified.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Have you ever seen an example of an ICE agent sharing a badge number on video from this year?

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Have you seen an instance where a citizen or legal immigrant calmly asked for name and badge number and was refused?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Yes I have. There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response. There are none where a badge number is given.

    My point was that we need to see their faces because they will not identify themselves. Thats a big problem if we ever pull ourselves out of this; they will attempt to rejoin society like nothing happdened after illegally brutalizing american citizens. We need to know who the traitors are.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response.

    Are these suspects or protestors? Because the videos I've seen are protestors. Police must reveal their identity to suspects due to the fourth amendment, but not to the general public.

    My point is suspects have a right to know who their accusers are. Whether they share that with others (and they should) is up to them. Having the public know their identities just opens them up to vigilante justice, having suspect know their identities keeps them accountable to the rule of law.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Both. But if you're "arresting" a protester haven't they become a defacto suspect? Or are they arresting protesters for other reasons?

    All other law enforcment in america is maskless. Why would ICE need special protections from vigilate justice?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    But if you’re “arresting” a protester haven’t they become a defacto suspect?

    Yes, if you're detained or arrested, you have the right to know the name and badge number of the person detaining or arresting you.

    The videos I've seen aren't that, they're merely protesters asking on behalf of someone else. If there is a video where it's clear that someone being detained or arrested by police isn't given that information, then I'd be very interested because that would be a pretty clear-cut 4th amendment violation.

    All other law enforcment in america is maskless

    SWAT wears masks.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Sure but we'd need an unedited clip from the streets to the jail cell to prove they weren't provided that information. Plus how long after the arrest do they have?

    Seizing people off the street without an arrest warrant or probable cause is already a clear-cut 4th amendment violation. What do you do with that?

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  • First contact to detainment/arrest is sufficient, and police body cam footage is plenty.

    And unfortunately, police can legally detain you up to 48 hours without charging you. There are rules around this, but generally speaking, police have 24 hours to prove they had probable cause and turn the detention into an arrest, otherwise they must release you.

    So if police have probable cause to detain or arrest some people in a protest, they can detain far more until they can review footage to complete their investigation before deciding whether to arrest or release individuals.

    I'm mostly looking for a smoking gun here. We know ICE has incorrectly arrested citizens and legal immigrants, I want to know if they have broken the law in other ways too. Arresting the wrong person is one thing, denying due process is another thing entirely.

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  • [–] 54 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    An ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien

    Cool, so I guess that means I can ignore evidence of the person/people at the door being law enforcement before enforcing my 2nd Amendment rights and state self-defense laws that also allow me to shoot to protect others.

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  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    That depends on who you ask, but likely the courts would side with a citizen requesting ID. The policy seems to be that they must "when it is practical and safe to do so."

    AFAIK, this issue has not been tried in court though.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What is the odds that court is where you go?

    There's so many other outcomes I keep hearing about in your news, but I don't know the odds.

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  • In practice, pretty low! In the vast majority of cases, people are released within a few hours and not sent to one of the larger detention facilities. As much as the news sensationalizes the handful of cases where that doesn't happen, the likelihood is still quite low that I wouldn't get due process.

    If I saw an ICE operation in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be too worried about going up to them and demanding their name and badge number. I'm not going to be "disappeared" or anything like that, especially as a US citizen. The vast majority of those targeted are actually illegal immigrants, and the extras arrested are often obstructing justice in one way or another. If I approach it completely legally, I don't think I'd be falsely accused of something else by those officers.

    Don't get me wrong, I am 100% against what ICE is doing. I think they're being a bit too fast and loose with their information, such that they arrest or detain far too many people without actual cause, and those they do arrest with cause they mistreat. I'm not necessarily against illegal immigrants getting deported, but that should be handled with respect and restraint, at least until we get policy to get these good people on some form of temporary status. If someone currently has work here, there should be a really easy way to get that turned into a legal work visa.

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    [–] 81 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    Does the US legal system still exist in any sense that it should in a democracy?

    I ask because I don't understand how all this is possible in a constitutional state: Masked brutes who arbitrarily kidnap people on the open street without even identifying themselves, people who are interned without due process and then often simply disappear without a trace in the administrative system, total surveillance without cause, and many other massive violations that the US legal system seems to enable rather than prevent, as it should.

    All of this already looks very much like a dictatorship to me, i.e., an unjust state, as none of this can be possible with a democratic constitution - at least not with one that is actually upheld by the legal system.

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  • [–] 55 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    It does not. The legal system has essentially lost the ability to be a check on the power of the executive branch. Partly because of the capture of the judiciary and regulatory bodies by right-wing extremists and partly because of the speed at which the executive branch is acting illegally - it takes time to build cases and the jsutice system can't keep up.

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  • [+] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's my impression too. After everything the regime has done so far, I think it's pretty clear that it can no longer be removed by legal means - the legal system already seems to me to have been infiltrated too deeply for that.

    It also seems likely to me that MAGA will no longer allow free elections, because that would carry the risk of being voted out of office, which, even in the corrupt US system, could mean severe legal consequences for many of the regime's followers and for all the misdeeds that have already been committed in less than a year. I don't think MAGA will take that chance, especially since ICE is already set up as a kind of secret police force with a budget equivalent to the military spending of a medium-sized country. I mean, what else could an agency like this possibly need such an astronomical budget for other than as a private army loyal to the regime and thus a safeguard in case of resistance from the regular army or the police?

    In short: I think the outlook is very bleak, and like you, I'm not convinced that the majority of US citizens are aware of how dangerous the situation is.

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  • it can no longer be removed by legal means

    It can, it just requires and act of Congress (well, two actually, impeachment and removal), an act by the VP (or maybe the cabinet? I'd need to check), or maybe an act of the Supreme Court to enable lower courts to sentence the president. None of those are currently willing to do so, but that could change after the midterms next year.

    MAGA will no longer allow free elections

    I guess we'll find out next year.

    I think your post is quite paranoid, but we'll see I guess.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Does the US legal system still exist in any sense that it should in a democracy?

    Hybrid Regime is how I describe the US. It's a weird limbo state between Democracy and Autocracy (because if this was a full autocracy, I wouldn't have access to Lemmy and most anti-trump media would've been raided and shut down). Afaik, they aren't doing exit controls yet.

    The major difference between the US and PRC (where I came from), is that Americans seem more willing to resist the government compared to mainland Chinese, and these demonstrations in the US are actually being reported on, in China, its absolute silence, nobody even knows about the very little protests that do happen.

    But, by the time EU starts accepting American Refugees, it'd probabably be too late and they would've imposed exit controls by then.

    Idk what will happen, only time will tell.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    The judiciary "interprets" the constitution. Trump filled the judiciary with loyalist or otherwise ideologically aligned judges during this term and his previous. The supreme court ruled last year that the president has immunity, and the president has the ability to pardon people, so it seems the administration is pretty much "above the law." Even when the courts do push back, they're acting like they're powerless, and the admin's tactics seems to be just ignoring, stalling, or taking the "ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball" approach to working around the courts. Yes, the constitution has been severely weakened, and will probably continue to weaken.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    No.

    The people are so gaslit they will attack you if you say otherwise.

    I wonder why our allies aren’t helping at this point. Surely they understand where this goes if they don’t stop it sooner rather than later. Europe is laughing at Americans ignoring the tiger that will eat them soon.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    I am German and I am appalled by the behavior of our government: Instead of standing up to Trump and his henchmen and becoming independent from the US, they are kowtowing to him, even though it is completely obvious how little Trump cares about his so called allies—and since the US is nowadays blackmailing Europe with tariffs and so on, it takes a lot of imagination to still call them allies, especially when all halfway rational people are particularly disturbed by all the inhuman Nazi shit.

    Unfortunately, however, the weak position of the current German government was already absolutely foreseeable before the last federal election, because the Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, is actually more of a US lobbyist than a politician (among other things, he was chairman of the supervisory board of Black Rock Germany until 2022 and held various positions in business lobby organizations such as the Atlantik-Brücke – a conservative think tank). Nothing can be expected from these people, although I unfortunately also think that US citizens should not count on any external support anyway.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Why your "allies" don't help? Well, the USA shouldn't have spit in our face to begin with.

    We have enough to fix in our own country with your stupid "USA first" moves.

    Endure your own shit while we endure your shit...

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I’m not going to excuse ICE and all the shit they are up to. I’m just going to point out that immigration status doesn’t require the same process to determine as the guilt or innocence of some other crime. In a murder trial, you have to prove motive, opportunity, etc beyond a reasonable doubt. With immigration status, it’s simpler: either you can document your legal right to be in the country or you can’t. When someone isn’t supposed to be in the country we don’t jail them for years to rehabilitate them and then release them into the population. We remove them. So everything about this feels and looks different from a standard criminal due process because it is different. Even without the aggressive tactics, masks, and all attendant bullshit, it would still be different.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Due process is recognized as a human‑rights protection in almost all democratic countries and generally applies regardless of citizenship; it helps prevent arbitrariness and abuse of power.

    The fundamental safeguard against arbitrary state detention is habeas corpus or its functional equivalent: a person detained must be brought before a judge so the lawfulness of the detention can be reviewed and so the detainee can be informed of the charges against them.

    ICE denies detainees even this, for which there can be absolutely no excuse in any reasonably civilized country.

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    [–] 32 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Is it illegal to have a facemask? People should start carrying around ski masks in their vehicles in case ICE approaches them. If they claim it's illegal then why the fuck is ICE wearing them?

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Time to start wearing face paint / face tattoos that fuck with facial recognition.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    In their world, resisting surveillance will be probable cause for arrest, because you must have something to hide and need to be investigated.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    But it's my religious markings from my officially recognized religion/church.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I don't think anything like that would help. Especially over the last several years with the huge rise of things like Snapchat filters where people can take photos of themselves in various situations with various costumes, various themes. I'm sure all of that was data mined for someone's purpose.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision_dazzle it's been done before. AI facial recognition gets a little overhyped

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    A recent famous case that comes to mind is when some independent researchers found an ex-RAF terrorist on the run (or call her whatever your political inclination suits) via facial recognition of photos on social media of a capobeira club. I assume the reference material were some age old photos as she was on the run for decades.

    I don't know much about facial recognition but I only heard it works damn well and considering OS and phone manufacturers employing it and are confident enough to not have their users locked out or compromise security let's me assume that it works damn well.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Reminder to everyone that it is COVID season, so wear a mask for your health.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    And flu and cold season. Consider wearing gloves to keep your hands safe from diseases as well. Consider tinted glasses as well to keep the sun out of your eyes, and a hat or hoodie to protect from rain or snow.

    Just basic health things, completely unrelated to cameras or anything.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You may also consider carrying a firearm. It's hibernation season, and the bears can get a bit frisky.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Bear spray also works on wild dogs, which are increasingly becoming a problem in suburban areas.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Nice! And it's far less illegal of you happen to go to a national or state park or something. Good idea, I have some bear spray from when I went to Glacier National Park, I'll have to bring them around in case I meet a particularly nasty one.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Ok time for everyone to dress like ice agents then. Masks for all.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    We can wear masks, too...for health reasons. I predict an increase in germaphobes.

    Imagine if they actually try to ban medical face masks, not for some cockamamie pseudoscience reason, but because we don't have the right to evade their facial recognition scheme?

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Facial Recognition has always been racist this is nothing new in a broad sense.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    So hypothetically, what if a bunch of protestors showed up with IC E shirts/pants/etc.... without license plates and started to protest? How would they know who was who at that point?

    It doesn't even look that hard to do given how much memorabilia there is online.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Um, Americans also realize they’re ABDUCTING people without their consent too, right? And have been, for like months now?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Most of us are well aware of that. I live in a neighborhood with a pretty high Hispanic population. ICE was reported just a few blocks from my house on Thursday, zero trick-or-treaters on Friday. There are still a discouraging about of people saying they support Trump and what he's doing on Nextdoor. I want to believe they're bots.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    What is the point of comments like this? Yes, we realize this. Are you just hearing about it? Do we really have to face each new horror with admonishments that it is distracting us from the last horror?

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