Zephorah comments on ICE's 'Frightening' Facial Recognition App is Scanning US Citizens Without Their Consent

Eh, I'm fine with them wearing masks. I'm not fine with them breaking the law and not being accountable. If they wear masks (or even if they don't), they need to be ready to show ID and recite their badge number.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

No, they are law enforcement and should be readily identifiable the community they serve. Including their face. Also being masked makes it harder for the people they're interacting with to understand what they're saying. They lose all the non-verbal communication that comes from the face. Them being masked has absolutely zero upside to the public.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

Including their face.

I don't think this is necessary. What does seeing an officer's face do that a name and badge number doesn't? What about undercover cops? What about the winter when it's cold?

I think it should only be required that they declare on what authority they're acting when making official actions, like a stop, detainment, or arrest. They should give their name and badge number upon request, in a form that works for the asker (written or verbal, asker's preference).

If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public. I get that police should follow higher standards (I'm absolutely in favor of ending qualified immunity), but IMO the rules should merely be that police must self identify in a way the public knows they're legitimate law enforcement when using the authority of their position.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them. Undercover cops are a different situation than what ICE is doing and really shouldn't be making arrests IMO. In winter they can take their mask off to interact with people.

If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public.

It doesn't. The general public doesn't need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them.

Sure, I just don't think that's a reasonable thing to require at all times.

Instead, the public should be free to approach to a safe distance to film, and then attempt to talk with law enforcement when safe. A police officer is required to identify themselves to the suspect due to the fourth amendment. Whether they are required to identify themselves to the public is up to local law, court precedent, and agency policy.

The general public doesn’t need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.

Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

Sure, I just don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to require at all times.

It is. There's literally no reason they ever need to be masked.

Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.

Disagree. Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable so they can't step out of line. Especially during protests. Otherwise we end up with priest getting shot in the eyes with pepper rounds.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago* (4 children)

There’s literally no reason they ever need to be masked.

Cops have rights too. If an officer wants to wear a mask, I don't see any reason to deny them that. They must, however, identify themselves, the risk of someone pretending to be law enforcement is too great.

Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable

Agreed, I just don't think masks are the issue here. IMO, officers involved in protest duty should have their badge number on their uniform in a big enough font for a camera to pick up. Likewise, body cameras should be on and recording the entire time.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

They refuse to be held accountable or hold each other accountable across the board. They deserve nothing but to do their fucking job exactly as the public who they serve wills it. If they don't like it they can quit. They have abused any and every bit of latitude they've been given since the inception of police forces. They don't need masks, they don't need privacy while they're working. Any who want to hide should be fired immediately. If they don't have enough integrity to stand behind their actions they're in the wrong line of work.

They can turn off body cams, or refuse to answer questions of bystanders, or hide their badge numbers. They do it all the time. If they aren't allowed to wear masks at least people will have their faces to go off.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

The solution IMO isn't to make a bunch of rules to try to make them act better, the solution is to increase accountability. That means:

end qualified immunity - when tried in court, they should be held to similar standards as citizens
change how investigations of police officers happens - AG role should change to protect the people, not the state

At the same time, we should increase salaries of police officers to encourage good cops instead of power hungry cops, and perhaps have cash rewards for officers who turn in other officers for criminal violations.

If we focus on laws to force police to act better, they'll just give themselves a pass.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

Being able to see their faces increases accountability.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago

Again, I don't think it really does.

Let's say I identify an officer that shot a pepper ball at a protester. Let's say I report it to the news, file a complaint, and file a lawsuit. Here's what I expect to happen:

news agency runs a small piece on the incident, perhaps naming the officer, perhaps not
police does an internal investigation and determines the officer was acting within their duties
lawsuit is dropped because I don't have standing (I'm not the victim), and if I did have standing, the agency might get fined and the officer retains their position

That's not real accountability IMO, real accountability would result in the officer getting investigated by the AG or something and potentially jailed for using excessive force.

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[–] Zephorah@discuss.online 3 points 1 year ago (9 children)

What badge number? They won’t do that. They need demasking.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Every officer has a badge number that uniquely identifies then, and they are legally required to provide that information. When filing a complaint or a lawsuit, you'll provide their name and badge number. If they refuse, you provide as much information as you can (area, time of day, type of vehicle, vehicle number, other officers and badge numbers involved, etc) so they can track the officer down.

I don't know how ICE works specifically, but many police departments require their officers to carry business cards with that information and hand them out upon request.

Civilians have a right to verify that the people involved are actually officers and have a right to identify individual offices to report misconduct.

I don't care if officers wear masks, I only care that they can be uniquely identified.

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[–] czech@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Have you ever seen an example of an ICE agent sharing a badge number on video from this year?

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works -3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Have you seen an instance where a citizen or legal immigrant calmly asked for name and badge number and was refused?

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[–] czech@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yes I have. There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response. There are none where a badge number is given.

My point was that we need to see their faces because they will not identify themselves. Thats a big problem if we ever pull ourselves out of this; they will attempt to rejoin society like nothing happdened after illegally brutalizing american citizens. We need to know who the traitors are.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response.

Are these suspects or protestors? Because the videos I've seen are protestors. Police must reveal their identity to suspects due to the fourth amendment, but not to the general public.

My point is suspects have a right to know who their accusers are. Whether they share that with others (and they should) is up to them. Having the public know their identities just opens them up to vigilante justice, having suspect know their identities keeps them accountable to the rule of law.

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[–] czech@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

Both. But if you're "arresting" a protester haven't they become a defacto suspect? Or are they arresting protesters for other reasons?

All other law enforcment in america is maskless. Why would ICE need special protections from vigilate justice?

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But if you’re “arresting” a protester haven’t they become a defacto suspect?

Yes, if you're detained or arrested, you have the right to know the name and badge number of the person detaining or arresting you.

The videos I've seen aren't that, they're merely protesters asking on behalf of someone else. If there is a video where it's clear that someone being detained or arrested by police isn't given that information, then I'd be very interested because that would be a pretty clear-cut 4th amendment violation.

All other law enforcment in america is maskless

SWAT wears masks.

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[–] czech@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

Sure but we'd need an unedited clip from the streets to the jail cell to prove they weren't provided that information. Plus how long after the arrest do they have?

Seizing people off the street without an arrest warrant or probable cause is already a clear-cut 4th amendment violation. What do you do with that?

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago

First contact to detainment/arrest is sufficient, and police body cam footage is plenty.

And unfortunately, police can legally detain you up to 48 hours without charging you. There are rules around this, but generally speaking, police have 24 hours to prove they had probable cause and turn the detention into an arrest, otherwise they must release you.

So if police have probable cause to detain or arrest some people in a protest, they can detain far more until they can review footage to complete their investigation before deciding whether to arrest or release individuals.

I'm mostly looking for a smoking gun here. We know ICE has incorrectly arrested citizens and legal immigrants, I want to know if they have broken the law in other ways too. Arresting the wrong person is one thing, denying due process is another thing entirely.

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