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[–] 89 points 1 year ago (2 children)

don't speak a language

have no idea yourself how the end product will turn out

every person you hire has to be trusted with a grain of salt and you have to take them at their word

Nightmare, but now that the game is out, it isn't like the content is under Fort Knox anymore and they can peer review it with the community until its right.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I think translations should involve a pair of people where both know both languages but one is fluent in the one while the other is fluent in the other. Or a single person fluent in both, but if you don't know the other language, it can be hard to verify that fluency and I'm sure it's not very hard to find people willing to lie about their proficiency to get a job.

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  • [–] 142 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    One of the characters says „and btw Taiwan is a sovereign nation“

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  • [+] 89 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    FF14 has some of the worst English writing I have ever had the displeasure of suffering through. I started and quit that game like four-six times over the years before finally forcing through to play with friends. I had to look up portions of the original Japanese and translate it myself to get any enjoyment out of the story. I'm not sure about some of the later expansions because it eventually got enjoyable enough that I stopped looking things up, but the latest expansion had me going to the Japanese again, and I cannot understand why they keep deviating from the script in ways that make it worse.

    I also quit reading the Witcher series part-way through book four because I just can't take David French's writing. The fan translations are much better.

    I can only think of one book which was originally in English and translated to Swedish that I found readable. Literally every originally-in-Swedish book I pick up is delightful. Are the people doing the translations just people who failed to write on their own or something?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    From what I've heard, Chinese gamers are significantly more likely to leave a negative review if there are issues. I don't know if that's good or bad. I think it's good for consumers to demand the products they buy to be as good as possible, but it also just makes developers want to avoid them, or do things like Steam has and separate reviews by language by default.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    It’s insane, here’s the translation back to English:

    With nary a spirit nor thought shalt thou persist, bereft of mortal will, unbent, unswayed. With no lament nor tearful cry, only sorrow’s dirge to herald thine eternal woe. Born of gods and of the fathomless abyss, grasping heaven’s firmament in thine unworthy palm. Shackled to endless dream, tormented by pestilence and shadow, thy heart besieged by phantasmal demons. Thou art the chalice of destiny. Verily, thou art the Primordial Knight of Hollowness.

    source

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago

    The headline is either confusing or a touch clickbaity. It's mixed for Chinese language reviews specifically. The overall (and the English reviews, too) are at Very Positive.

    But hey, fair, they messed up with the localization and apparently some bits of the launch. It's gonna get you on the user reviews.

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  • [–] 97 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I guess gone are the days when we laughed at bad localization and enjoyed the game anyway.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    When were those days again?

    I whined about the FF7 localization for years. Eventually met one of the guys in charge for separate reasons and whined at him about it. We were both quite old by then.

    Some local games media in the late 90s and early 2000s here had a policy that no localization or bad localization would knock 1 to 2 points off the review score automatically, regardless of how good or bad the rest of the game was.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Did we?

    So this itsy tiny company, called CD Project. You know what they started as? Locolisation for the Polish market because there was no standards. That's their claim to fame before ever starting on a game themselves.

    Your comment has to be an anecdotal. Because games lived and died by localisations. Game like Gothic is legendary in Europe but the English version was quite lack luster and even though the games were vastly superior to elder scrolls, they couldn't penetrate.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Someone set us up the bomb.

    Yeah. We laughed real hard at shitty localizations and ad even loved the games still.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Somebody set up us the bomb.

    Zero Wing is quite a hard game to love, tho. That phenomenal opening is followed up by a very mid Gradius knock-off. I'd probably have chosen Symphony Of The Night as the best game with an awful translation - voice acted by native speakers, too.

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  • [+] 74 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (22 children)
  • [–] 56 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    From the Kotaku article linked by PCGamer:

    According to localization expert Loek van Kooten, one of the main issues is that Silksong‘s evocative but concise writing has been turned into “a high-school drama club’s Elizabethan improv night” in the Chinese versions. He cites the following as an example of how the prose reads:

    With nary a spirit nor thought shalt thou persist, bereft of mortal will, unbent, unswayed. With no lament nor tearful cry, only sorrow’s dirge to herald thine eternal woe. Born of gods and of the fathomless abyss, grasping heaven’s firmament in thine unworthy palm. Shackled to endless dream, tormented by pestilence and shadow, thy heart besieged by phantasmal demons. Thou art the chalice of destiny. Verily, thou art the Primordial Knight of Hollowness.

    Van Kooten goes on to point out that one of two of Silksong‘s Chinese translators, listed as Hertzz Liu in the credits, had a habit of gloating about their involvement in the game and leaking small details about the development process over the summer prior to its release this week.

    I took a quick look at the English dialogue and it reads nothing like the example above. If the Chinese translation is really like that, then the tone is indeed quite different.

    Kotaku also quotes the following from a Steam review:

    First, the god-awful Chinese translation that everyone is mocking. It’s not just pretentious, pseudo-artistic nonsense—the phrasing and even the localization of place names are an absolute mess. I don’t understand how Hollow Knight’s fantastic, quotable translation turned into this unsalvageable heap of garbage in Silksong. The utterly idiotic localization has even affected the game’s world-building and storytelling, forcing me to guess at character relationships and main plot points. Thankfully, the combat holds up, or else I’d be completely disgusted.

    While I can't verify it myself, considering the state of JP→EN translation I don't find any of this unbelievable. The complaints line up in what I see in English releases of Japanese games: Misplaced anachronistic language, altered world building, characters and major plot points changed sometimes dramatically (or even cut completely), not to mention unprofessional conduct by the translation team.

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  • [+] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (21 children)
  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    That is very close to the English text of both the original Hollow Knight and Silksong.

    I disagree. If the original is a 3 or 4 on the dramatic and archaic language scale then the translation is a 8+ which definitely changes the tone. Compare the lines you posted with the retranslated quote.

    Let me give you the example from my previous comment in its original context:

    Global reviews praised Silksong into the stratosphere, with a glowing 92% positivity. In China, however, the numbers plummeted almost immediately to 76% 52%. And the reason could not be hidden: it was the localization. Complaints date back to the August demo, when awkward word choices like 苔穴 (‘moss-hole’) raised eyebrows. Despite repeated feedback, the translation team brushed off criticism—changing their social media bios to ‘don’t comment if you don’t understand.’ That defiance only inflamed players further. What players found on screen was not the brisk, lyrical, elegant style that had carried the first Hollow Knight to such acclaim, but a swamp of overwrought archaisms, a self-indulgent carnival of tangled phrasing that felt less like modern Chinese and more like a Qing-dynasty soap opera written by someone pretending to be Shakespeare.

    To illustrate the calamity, one need only place the original Hollow Knight’s translation beside Silksong’s.

    The original:

    No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry out in suffering. Born of God and Void. You are the Vessel. You are the Hollow Knight.

    Concise. Clean. Haunting.

    Now behold the Silksong version, which players were forced to endure — rendered here in English as the grotesque monstrosity it resembled:

    With nary a spirit nor thought shalt thou persist, bereft of mortal will, unbent, unswayed. With no lament nor tearful cry, only sorrow’s dirge to herald thine eternal woe. Born of gods and of the fathomless abyss, grasping heaven’s firmament in thine unworthy palm. Shackled to endless dream, tormented by pestilence and shadow, thy heart besieged by phantasmal demons. Thou art the chalice of destiny. Verily, thou art the Primordial Knight of Hollowness.

    One can imagine the reaction. Players did not feel immersed in Pharloom; they felt trapped in a high-school drama club’s Elizabethan improv night. Instead of fighting for survival, they were decoding riddles with the cadence of a failed King James Bible. It is impossible to perform platforming precision when the screen itself sounds like a plague sermon.

    And another example, also with English retranslation: Image

    Edit: I should note just in case, that the image above is a parody: this is what some Chinese players feel the new team would have localized the lines above from the first game.

    I don't see how that delivers the "equivalent experience" that a faithful localization is meant to provide to the target language reader.

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  • [+] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    What’s the difference between the “Hollow Knight” and “Silksong” versions mentioned above? Clearly the Silksong Chinese text is longer. Also the retranslated English text is missing the core points from the original English text.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean, it's not 1:1, but for some of the lines I think I like the Chinese version better. Sometimes the lines in hollow knight/silksong feel empty so adding a bit "more" isn't too bad.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    adding a bit "more" isn't too bad.

    That's not the job of a bloody translator.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mean yes and no. The translator is supposed to make sure the text conveys the same meaning/intent. That doesn't mean things are 1:1.

    With cryptic and poetic text as seen in these games you certainly can't just Google translate it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    I’ve never played either game but I’ll be honest: that English text looks really pretentious to me. I can imagine how bad things could get if that were carried over into the Chinese translation.

    Everyday Chinese speech is very plain, blunt, and utilitarian. The Great Classical Chinese novels are anything but. They are as important (arguably even more so) to Chinese as Shakespeare is to English. Speaking in that style should come off just as pretentious in Chinese as a video game character speaking Shakespearean style would in English. Generally, in English fiction (especially TV shows), characters are brutally mocked for speaking in that style unless they are literally reading, rehearsing, or performing Shakespeare.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    It’s not about liking/not liking poetry, it’s about credibility and verisimilitude. When a character says something, is it credible for the character to have said that? A guy walking around in the Harry Potter wizarding world speaking Shakespearean English is not credible, he’s a laughingstock.

    I don’t know much about Hollow Knight but from what I can see it is not set in a fantasy Classical Chinese setting. Having characters in the game speak in the Classical Chinese style is not credible. It does not fit the setting, regardless of the broader similarities between Hollow Knight’s setting and Wuxia novels. It’s culturally tone deaf.

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  • [+] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    HK games are not set in China, but they are both firmly set in a medieval fantasy world

    ??!

    I guess we have completely different ideas of the word medieval. This to me looks like a completely separate, unique fantasy world with no resemblance whatsoever to a historical medieval setting of the sort that games like D&D are based on.

    It’s fine if they have created this wonderful unique setting of their own, but then it leaves me with the question of how the language aspects of medieval society ended up there despite all the other differences. I mean these characters don’t even resemble humans!

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I’ve got no dog in this race, but they’re bugs my dude. Even then, it’s quite clear later on this isn’t meant to be a modern setting, it’s definitely medieval. This is like screen grabbing the first shot of Robin Hood and saying it’s in a forest so it must not take place in medieval times.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Yes, it seems we do have different ideas of the word medieval. To me, medieval is not an abstract idea, it’s a specific period in European history. To be medieval a setting has to bear significant resemblance to that period.

    This is not medieval. It’s very ornate but it bears no resemblance whatsoever to medieval art or architecture. If anything, it’s closer to Victorian than medieval. Everything I’ve seen in HK screenshots tells me it’s a fantasy pastiche of elements. It has no affinity with any particular period in human culture. Rather, it’s a cut-and-paste construction. (I hate the word appropriation because it implies theft. I do not want to imply that).

    Like if a fantasy game is set on Mars with a bunch of green skinned Martians as characters then it’s not medieval even if the characters use Anglo-Saxon instead of English. It’s a pastiche of science fiction, fantasy, and medieval elements and it suffers from the same issue that a lot of bad Star Trek episodes had (see: planet of hats), which is verisimilitude:

    Why did this society, which otherwise seems completely alien, just happen to evolve a conspicuous element that’s uncannily similar to an element in human history?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    They speak in a classical style in the games, you have not played them. Theres no need for several paragraphs on this subject from someone that has not played the games. There are plenty of chinese speakers that have, give them a chance to speak.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    I have played plenty of other games where characters speak in a classical style. Unless it’s being done to mark the characters as old fashioned (or the world is literally set in medieval times) then it comes off as extremely pretentious.

    Edit: I know Hollow Knight is sacred in the indie game community. I’m just saying this is something that annoys many people (including me) who prefer verisimilitude and authenticity.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Thats the thing, that IS the atmosphere the game goes for, you do not know about what you are talking about.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    The game is deliberately pretentious? Okay. Then the negative reviews are justified.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    I mean even in english the text is cryptic af. Maybe they’re upset it’s intentionally hard to understand

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    You know how bad things are when I searched for some examples and the first result is a localization mod.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    I thought stream updated policies so that this time of foreign review bombing wouldn't be as apparent? (Reviews in your specific region counting)

    Edit: they did. Still is very positive for everyone else

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I actually don't know if it's Steam or Enhanced Steam but there's a way to filter reviews by language. It's really neat to see something like overwhelmingly positive in one country, and mixed/negative in another country.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    This is one reason I've effectively stopped caring about steam review bombs. People review bomb over the stupidest shit and never change their review if the tiny issue is fixed

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  • [–] 86 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Buying a game because it claims it is available in your language and then getting served an awful, nonsensical translation is absolutely not a stupid reason to leave a bad review.

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  • [+] -17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    This will be fixed in a week or two, but 80% of the reviews will not change. That's just what review bombers do. Many buy the game to jump on the band wagon and refund the game. Review still counts.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yeah, that's a consequence of putting out a flawed product. Who cares?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    In this one case, it kinda sucks for the devs since they presumably had no way of knowing they were releasing a flawed product. It was probably the translator that fucked them over.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Didn't steam just change the reviews to be aggregated per language? So Chinese or Russian review bombs won't effect the rating that you see any longer.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    A game having a bad translation in your language is a valid concern, and not "stupid shit".

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  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago

    Why can't they speak freedom language? 🇺🇲🍔💣🇺🇲 we're here to fuck up democracy and act like the center of the world, and we're out of democracy 🇺🇲

    Would be fun if Lemmy had a feature to block people / instances by country, now that I think of it

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  • Did they use ai or something?

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  • [+] -8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    A good translation of a game with only like 50 pages of text. They could bust out a passable translation within a week. How long would a great one take? Like two, three weeks to write?

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    As a translator, I wanna say that translation isn't a simple conversion of words when it comes to story. It takes longer than that to translate a good story of 50 pages because you have to make sure you understand the story and even the unwritten parts of it to convey the right nuance and tone.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    My father used to translate books and managed about a page per hour with an editor to offer notes. I stand by 2-3 weeks to manually translate 50 pages of dialogue and exposition to a great, shippable quality. It’s more difficult when the subject matter is this disjointed, but I don’t imagine it would slow someone down by more than 4x. Particularly if there are notes on tone and premise available.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago*

    Maybe you were just talking about the story and perhaps you're right. A whole team might be able to handle it with perfect editor's notes and zero questions, zero changes.

    But I would like to also add that Hollow Knight's story is very cryptic and the lines by all the characters are very disjointed. It's also a fantasy so there are a lot of made up names, terminologies, ideas, and play on words that simply may not exist in the target language.

    I don't know what genre or language pairs your father used to translate, but English to Chinese, I imagine, is quite difficult.

    I read an article about the Japanese localization of the game and the translator did a lot of back and forth with the devs (not just an editor), to discuss the world and tone. It wasn't just a matter of "we want it this way by this day," and boom, it's done.

    Furthermore, you have to consider all the extra UI stuff they have to translate when it comes to video games.

    So, while I respect your opinion, I too stand by mine that 2 - 3 weeks seems too short especially if we include the UI stuff as well as review/QA.

    It could be that your father was just better than me at translating lol.

    Edit: I'm also wondering if the PPC needs to review the content (not the quality) before it is approved for sale in China.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago*

    Well, you do need to hire someone, get them set up with access to the text database and then you need to implement the updated lines in-game and test and then bug fix anything that breaks anything, presumably. And then make the patch, submit it and have it go live, although for China presumably that'd be Steam-specific and have no actual first party approval process?

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  • 1 comment in c/technology@piefed.social view that post
    [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    The game is so well polished it's surprising they screwed up a translation. Should be a relatively quick and easy fix, though. Especially with the mountains of cash Team Cherry has now, I bet they can hire a team of interpreters to do it in like a day or two if they wanted.

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