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[–] 276 points 1 week ago (3 children)

He has to go and the Proton workers have to form a union.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Or we just need to drop Proton. Why is the first reaction to reform a company?

    If anything, the workers should band together to form a new, more flat organization (esp., coop)

    Edit: just want to add, that "made in Switzerland" does not make a company a fair or good company.

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  • [–] 221 points 1 week ago (37 children)

    In one exchange, an employee in the company’s security Slack channel urged Proton to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August. “Stop thinking always of how to be slower, and focus more on how to be faster.” Yen added, “stop lovingly handcrafting all our code and use AI more.”

    Yikes, this Yen guy seems really charming

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  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago

    stop lovingly handcrafting all our code

    I guess they’re headquartered in Switzerland, but have American values. It’s a shame, because having privacy engineered like a Swiss watch makes a lot of sense.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    Remember, this is the same guy who, last year, posted an explicitly pro-Republican Tweet on the official Proton account, and then backtracked and tried to say they were apolitical. In his excuses, he used the extremely right-wing coded phrase "triggered" in a way that perfectly matched the way right-wingers use the term, and when called out for that he claimed he was "unaware that triggered is offensive" because "I don't live in the US so I really don't have ready a list of words people are not allowed to use". Some very right-winger-complains-about-cancel-culture–coded language right there, and an excuse that falls apart the moment you realise that it would require being in tune with right-wing language enough to have used "triggered" accurately in the first place, that his complaints simply don't work.

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  • [+] -93 points 1 week ago (34 children)

    His words are aggressively out of touch, but I will say that I agree somewhat. I tried going back to handcrafting code for a bit and it really does feel slow. Like, "absolutely no way to compete in the current market" slow.

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  • [–] 92 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    Slow has nothing to do with pen testing or not. Pen testing is how you validate that the code is secure, AI or no. This is showing a shocking lack of care about security for a company pretending to offer a secure product.

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  • [+] -38 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Without the entire slack exchange, it's not clear whether Andy Yen was responding exclusively to the call for pentesting, or towards broader comments about AI code.

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  • [–] 57 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Look I'll be honest, a CEO telling his workers their (valid) opinions are bullshit and looser thinking is absolutely unacceptable, even putting the context of security (or lack thereof) aside. If you refuse to listen to your engineers as a leadership, you have failed miserably.

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  • [–] 65 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Speed is not a good quantifier for industry success. Speed to market might get you some initial customers, but speed alone won't keep them. If your product is junky, slow, and insecure you are going to lose those customers you had, and potentially open yourself up to lawsuits in the process.

    The things that matter more to long term success and sustainability are all the things AI is not.

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  • [+] -19 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    I never said speed was all that mattered. But from my experience, and my other friends in the industry, it is possible to achieve speed while maintaining quality. security, and maintainability. Because these are all things that the AI can look for too. Just look at how many vulnerabilities AI is finding nowadays. Just like any other product manager, you can bring up concerns, ask the AI to look into them, and validate the AI's claims. Just like you would manage a team of engineers. Which is of course still faster than writing everything yourself.

    If all you ask the AI to do is produce lines of code, that's all it will do. But AI workflows can be far more complex than that.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    The quote is talking about how the CEO is scoffing at an engineer asking for a few days for pentesting. None of that has to do with using or not using AI for coding. Doesn't matter who wrote the code, the management of a privacy first company looking to cut corners on testing for buggy code is a no no for their customers.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Without the whole slack context, the pentesting comment might have been part of a whole chain of comments trying to discredit AI, and the CEO is trying to push for AI. I wouldn't jump to saying the CEO is against pentesting in general until I had more information

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    What part of insulting people that wants to take it slow makes sense as a response to a chain of comments discrediting AI? You're twisting your whole body trying to invent hypotheticals that doesn't even make sense.

    Why are you making yourself look foolish to defend a company you have no financial or personal connection to? Unless you actually do.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago

    Recall that I already mentioned that his comments seemed aggressively out of touch. Insulting your engineers is a bad look.

    However, I'm saying that he isn't necessarily against pentesting, which is what some comments seem to be thinking. I would want to read the whole context to see if that's what he really believes.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    My job is not to be fast. This expectation of development speed is bosses not understanding why they hire specialists.

    I code, make sure it works, is secure and maintainable. That's how I own my work.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (5 children)

    as mentioned in another comment, it's possible to make it secure and maintainable if you manage AI properly. Managing AI is like a product manager managing a team. It's up to you to push for security and maintainability, but AI can absolutely look for vulnerabilities and holes and code smells if you ask for it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (4 children)

    Yet somehow speed seems all that matters to c-suits.

    Coming back to my point: slower ≠ worse.
    Can AI speed things up? Oh, yes. Is it really better? It depends, but I'm leaning to no.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    I don't think Andy Yen was saying that slower = worse, or that faster is all that matters. My read of the conversation is that engineers were pushing against AI saying that it makes code less secure and maintainable, and Andy was pushing back saying that's not necessarily the case, that it's possible to use AI to speed things up while maintaining quality.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    In one exchange, an employee in the company’s security Slack channel urged Proton to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August. “Stop thinking always of how to be slower, and focus more on how to be faster.” Yen added, “stop lovingly handcrafting all our code and use AI more.”

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    There was a Lemmy post about a Proton employee providing more context for Andy's statements: https://no.lastname.nz/post/4106893

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Good thing he apologised, yet it still looks that the c-suit still mostly concerned with speed. Apologizing for shitty behaviour is still worse than not being shitty in the first place.

    FYI, I don't think this situation is cause enough to ditch Proton, but I still stand by my original comment.

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  • [–] 42 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    It only feels slow when everyone is forced to use AI, none of these companies have proven to operate at a profit yet

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  • [+] -37 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Huh? The frontier model companies aren't operating at a profit but all the major enterprise tech companies (Google, Microsoft, Salesforce, Amazon, etc) are using huge amounts of AI in the SDLC and beyond and certainly are operating at a profit...

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  • [–] 15 points 1 week ago

    I’m not sure what you are trying to say, what difference does it make if the users of a product are profitable when the creator of said product isn’t, the users of AI make their money on a diversified portfolio of products, the AI companies are making no profits right now as the subscription prices they are charging are at a loss to gain market share, if they don’t find a sustainable profit margin over time they will have to shut down or increase the cost of the subscription so only a limited number of companies and individuals will be able to afford it. Either way the gushing AI inference taps will stop leaking so freely at some point.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Every single one of those companies reported negative free cash flow this quarter, and some have been running in the negative for a lot longer. The only tech company at that scale NOT losing money hand over fist is Apple, and they're the only one not investing heavily in AI... but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago

    Microsoft and Salesforce both have very positive free cash flow... but in any case that isn't profit. All 4 of the companies I listed are still very profitable (Alphabet/google being the one "exception" where they are still wildly profitable but down from q3 2024 vs q3 2026). But even in the Alphabet and Amazon cases, they have negative free cash flow because they are investing like crazy in AI. This doesnt mean they aren't profitable it means they are using their historic performance to make a big bet on the future. This is fundamentally very different from the frontier lab companies who have never been profitable and are staying afloat mostly from cash injection from big tech (Anthropic is an interesting one that may have just turned the corner).

    It's fine to have moral, labor, or environmental objections to "AI" (which is a very stupid name for some specific applications of machine learning) but I would expect Lemmy to have a higher level of discourse around this stuff that is actually rooted in reality.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    You might be able to ship a codebase quicker but once it hits a certain level of complexity, you'll have a codebase that no single human being on your team really understands. You'll now be forever tied to an ever increasing AI subscription cost

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  • [–] -1 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    which may still be worth it to secure a strong position in the market. You have to look at what competition Proton is facing (Google Workspace)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    But this is exactly why this is so fucking stupid. Most people didn't switch to proton because their suite is better than google performance or feature wise. The google apps work just fine. You switch exactly because google is an unethical shit company, that harvests your data on top.. If proton adopts the same values why the fuck would I stay with them..

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  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago (2 children)
  • [+] -28 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

    "skill issue" comments are rarely productive. I have many friends that also work in the industry that feel the same, even if they are against AI. I trust their opinions (and my own of course) over yours.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    cool. trust your -20 down voted comment

    EDIT - and wait, let's clarify. I NEVER SAID "skill issue". my implication wasn't necessarily "it's because you're slow", it was "good things take time". have some patience.

    LLMs erode normal human patience and skills. your skills will thank you for the time you invest.

    EDIT 2 - I also work in the industry. you've probably used something I helped build. I'm telling you, with the experience to back it up, that you're only hurting yourself and helping the ruling class.

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  • [–] 138 points 1 week ago* (5 children)

    Near the start of the meeting, Yen said, “I want to acknowledge myself, personally, that there was a communication failure on my part and there are many things that probably could and should have been communicated differently, and this is something that I’ll have to reflect on and improve over time. So I will do that.”

    “So what does that mean going forward? Going forward, I'm still going to push,” he added.

    Uh. This news makes everything about 0% better.

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  • [–] 57 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Brain dead CEO?! Tune in next week for more obvious news! 💀

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  • [–] 393 points 1 week ago (42 children)

    It will be impossible to trust this company again until Yen and the rest of the C-suite resign.

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  • [–] 66 points 1 week ago (37 children)

    I'm slowly trying to degoogle. Mail is a big concern for me. I have a google business account to handle a few domains. I used a small shared host before and it was crap. Every couple months they'd make some change and all my shit broke. I switched to Google because I knew it would be reliable and largely set and forget. It's been that. I hate Google though. So if not proton, then who?

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  • [–] 77 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    I think Tuta and mailbox.org are generally recommended, but I use Posteo which has been fine

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  • [–] 25 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Tuta is not everyones fave right now, look at my history for details...I havent followed up on everything yet but I thought the same as you.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (2 children)
  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Tuta uses walled garden closed source apps. Posteo does not support custom domains unless you do something like addy.io. Mailbox.org does encryption at rest but your client needs to support pgp to use it. They all have their drawbacks.

    Personally I’ve started to move from proton to mailbox.org with addy.io for custom domains and aliases. Once it’s solid I’m moving addy.io to self hosted

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  • [–] 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    The important part is to not put all of your eggs in one basket. This makes it so you can migrate off of one at a time rather than your entire life at once.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Ye, I'm finding that with Google. You don't realize how tightly locked in you are until you try to leave.

    A counterpoint though, is that putting 12 eggs into different baskets means having to manage 12 baskets. It's a trade off

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Try Fastmail, you will be impressed

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  • [–] 15 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    After using Tuta for a year and not really enjoying the experience I surveyed the landscape and picked Fastmail. I adore it.

    It being in a five eyes country will certainly earn it some strikes against it among the privacy crowd, however.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Email is inherently unsafe. Privacy advocates know this. But we all still need it for managing accounts and such.

    Any provider just reliably "doing email" and not actively harming its users in some way is going to look pretty good to most of us.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Email is something we simply cannot live without. They are primary sources of communication to reach you like account notifications, what accounts you've registered with it and vice versa.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Mailo.com. It's ugly as 2005 websites but it just works. You get IMAP, family accounts. It's just email. Old and reliable french company.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    it may not be "beautiful" by what passes as "modern design" but i think it's great, just the way it is. it's the modern full page "responsive" scroll til you die shit designed for small screens that suck ass.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (2 children)

    First time I've seen Mailo recommended, thanks for sharing. Does it support custom domains? And have you had any issues making accounts using a Mailo address?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    No issues. I only use custom domains for years to be independent and they support it. Also they have nice ways for kids accounts with moderation of what's getting into your kid inbox.

    Except of shit web design that i don't use, all works just fine. IMAP, caldav and so on. I'm super happy.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago

    I did a pretty deep dive for my company recently. We are very data-privacy centric. Here was my Lemmy post on it: https://lemmy.world/post/51963153

    Some of the items there are mentioned here, but after the evaluation, my hunch was correct and we are likely switching to https://runbox.com/

    Good service, pricing, privacy focused but not so much that you need to host your own proxy like with Proton, and runs sustainably.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Here's Lemmy's reply from yesterday triggered by the same concern:

    https://lemmy.world/post/53735981

    Gmail was actually the easiest one to separate from, if you just count the transferring email addresses. It is a pain in the ass because so many services fight like hell to hold onto your google account you sometimes have to jump through hoops to remove it--a security risk in itself.

    The big sticking point for me so far is photos... there are other options, but itś all integrated into my phone in weird ways I don't want to bother with right now.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago

    GMail is not that easy. Because, there are places and services that use e-mail clients that are easy to be sent to and received by GMail. I've experienced this with ProtonMail for a while, where there'll be services and individuals that could not reach me through my Proton e-mail and I've had difficulty reaching out to them.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago

    I moved over to Tuta personally for email. And Tuta is EU-based if that matters to you. If you use other Proton features there are alternatives there as well.

    For Proton Pass and Authenticator, there's Bitwarden (and self-hosted Vaultwarden). Which supports password storage, 2FA codes, and Passkeys across basically all devices. Also supports SSH agent forwarding if you work with that a lot.

    For Proton Drive, Koofr seems to be a good option for cloud storage, also EU-hosted. They also have an additional locally-encrypted Vault for files you want additional security on. Things like 2FA bypass codes you get when you set up your accounts but don't want want hanging around in the open at all.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    mailfence is pretty good so far. very basic but there are nice clients for IMAP these days

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    i can't get mail from some places to mailfence. sending is fine. no errors with the connection. no bounces. senders have looked at their logs, they're fine. mail is sent. it is received. mailfence just loses it somewhere before it makes it to my inbox and they won't help with anything at all. so i gave up with them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Depending what you need and want, I can highly recommend posteo.de and while they are not as polished and use standard DAV, it works absolutely flawless, they are relatively cheap, based in German and have certifications for all kinds of security.

    If you want something like Google Workplace, get a Nextcloud. Still not as polished, but open and if you want to change the provider, you can just do so. I recommend a combination of Nextcloud and Posteo.

    And if you need a custom domain with everything bundled together, I can recommend xaweho.de. though they are not cheap...

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  • [–] 18 points 1 week ago

    You are right. He will try again one day in some shape or form. But it‘s still nice to see a backlash with cancellations can make a difference. Teaches us that we should keep trying to change things for the better or stop changes that make things worse for us.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I'll continue to use ProtonMail myself. But, I can't in good conscience feel in reason to support this company with my money and I'm especially concerned with relying on ProtonVPN so that will be getting uninstalled.

    This is just not how you win people over and I'm tired of this day and age in tech where companies like this, pad their PR up with promises then do a 180 on their attitude towards everyone who uses their products that makes everyone second guess them. It's bad enough we have things like Discord who has spent a couple years, making themselves look good and cozy for the public market that have alienated its userbase.

    Bluesky showing their true colors and then we have this asshole CEO on Proton taking a dump whenever he pleases on the values of why we bothered using Proton in the first place.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 week ago

    iVPN is a good alternative. What concerns me is his disregard for proper security review of AI generated code, because that is one of the stupidest things a company focused on security and privacy can do. Even if one has no issue with his previous remarks about Trump, this new one is legitimately a security issue that affects the product itself.

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  • [–] 98 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    I like to think my plan cancellation last night helped. Now they gotta oust the CEO.

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