Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.

Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.

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[–] 132 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (34 children)

I think that that's kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.

Slate's a pretty stripped-down EV. It's got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)

No cell radio. Doesn't even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that's about it.

Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.

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  • [–] 39 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    The range is shorter than a Tesla but the price is about a third so it's not so bad when you factor that in. I wish Slate success I really like their approach to the automobile, they remind me of Framework computer on wheels.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Yeah I hope they succeed: we really need something like that.

    I understand why they’re building a truck but I really wish they hadn’t. With that low range and the suv/fastback kits being extra cost, it’s not as compelling to me as it should be

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    I know a part of me wonders if a two seat with flat bed pickup was significantly cheaper than a four seat car with trunk.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    I know what you mean but it’s hard to believe.

    However it’s easier to believe

    1. A huge part of the us want a truck, even if they’d be better served by other vehicle types
    2. When the goal is being modular, you can turn a truck into an suv, but not vice versa
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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago

    Yeah I want an EV version the Bronco boom of the 70s. We got the Blazer and Scout too.

    Or the Matra Rancho if you’re from France.

    Hopefully a hot hatch revival can follow once the public gets a taste for simple cheaper EVs.

    Probably the auto market has to fully collapse first though. And China is going to pick up tie pieces.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Give me AC, A heat pump, 300 miles of range. And two basic speakers. If it doesn't make the 1998 beater i got when i was 19 look fully loaded it aint basic enough. I need to not die from the elements and for it to go from A to B while blasting low quality buttrock.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 weeks ago (12 children)

    It's got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.

    I believe that is a mistake, carplay and android auto are designed to work well when driving, my phone automatically removes all text message notifications and makes me not even notice getting texted to prevent me from getting distracted.

    I would like a stripped down car that still has Carplay/Android Auto.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 weeks ago (7 children)

    This would be solved by putting space in the dash for people to install their own head units.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    Didn't look like it every time I checked

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  • [–] 5 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    There's a huge space in the dash, it's basically a large glove box. A radio or screen can be hidden behind the door or built into it, whatever you prefer.

    Choice and DIY is a big part of Slate's thing. I don't need or want a screen and would not like a car with a big space for one. I'll add it later if I change my mind.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    Am I the only person who uses my phone as the head unit?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.

    I'm not sure how that will be road legal in the USA because after the passage of a law in 2018 all vehicles under 10,000 lbs require a backup camera.

    "Today’s final rule requires all vehicles under 10,000 pounds, including buses and trucks, manufactured on or after May 1, 2018, to come equipped with rear visibility technology that expands the field of view to enable the driver of a motor vehicle to detect areas behind the vehicle to reduce death and injury resulting from backover incidents. The field of view must include a 10-foot by 20-foot zone directly behind the vehicle. The system must also meet other requirements including image size, linger time, response time, durability, and deactivation."

    source

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    they can put the backup camera display integrated into the rear view mirror, many models of cars had this before the built in tablet computer became ubiquitous.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    This is stupid design. When I'm going backward it's always better to have more view angles: rear mirror, side mirrors, backing camera, all of them have different view angle and their use. Blocking mirror with camera display is like losing an eye.

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  • [–] 71 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    Why are there no normal electric cars instead of gimicks on wheels? is probably the first question.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    your statement goes well outside just cars too. all house appliances to start.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    I haven't bought appliances in a while. I get the feeling the high end stuff has mandatory tech crap on it, but the low end stuff is still mercifully free of it; I feel like it would be easier to by a fridge that does not spy on you than a car.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    I have bought appliances in the last three years. It's pretty easy to get "dumb" appliances, but it's hard to find dumb, high quality appliances, and you pay a premium for them. I heard Speed Queen is the best when it comes to washers and dryers. I have a dumb LG fridge that doesn't try to connect to the interweb or anything. My washer-dryer is LG and has an option to connect to the internet I will never allow.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago

    Speed Queen is the shit. I pulled mine out from under the collapsed roof of an abandoned laundromat in a ghost town in the early 2000s and they're still running fine. Genuinely have no idea how old they are, definitely older than me. 100% electromechanical, schematics printed on access panels, no proprietary components. One of the things that really proves to me just how intentional planned obsolescence is, someone put a lot of effort into building and simplifying the best machine they could to wash clothes before someone else figured out that wasn't the best way to make money

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  • [–] 35 points 4 weeks ago (6 children)

    Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn't raise all the same objections

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.

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  • [–] 29 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago* (1 child)

    yes, but a lot of that overcomplication is for safety at least.

    you're much more likely to survive a big car crash in a car from today, then are you are from a car 60 years ago.

    Also less likely to lose traction on wet roads and skid off than you were half a century ago.

    that isnt meant to say everythings sunshine and roses, like all that equipment that enables spyware bullshit they gather on you and sell to insurance companies and marketers.

    the problem is the cars have stopped being a product, and have become a medium to turn you into the product. Which is becoming a problem across many industries and the items they wish you to own.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 weeks ago

    Better crumple zones and airbags are most of the advances in safety compared to 60 years ago. Traction control and anti-lock brakes are pretty rad too. Automatic braking and lane assist account for some though I think they're a net detriment, training drivers to be less attentive (this is somewhat supported by the rise in pedestrian deaths).

    All the spyware and extra shit is pure downside. Mandatory internal face tracking is fucking maddening and I shan't be cooperating with such overreach. Nothing newer than like 2014, maybe an import from a different market without them.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 weeks ago*

    I think it's a salient point: It's not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the "rolling data center" model.

    As to "why" from your post title...well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 weeks ago

    no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I'm all for BEVs!

    It's just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the "smart" shit

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  • [–] 31 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    you're starting too far down the line

    most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks

    the real question is why can't we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type

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  • [–] 24 points 4 weeks ago (6 children)

    There aren't no nonsense gas powered cars anymore. Everything is computer controlled.

    Anti lock brakes, collision avoidance, controlling the fuel injections. You have to go back to the models that used carburetors to get what you want. Then the federal goverment requires tons of expensive safety equipment and testing to keep new companies from entering the market.

    But to answer the question, profits. The production line for low price gas cars are already built and optimized with statistical process control. There aren't high profits in the low priced autos. They will only switch when nobody buys their current models.

    Just look at the big three turning their nose up to electric.

    Meanwhile Hyundai is rolling out a super cheap model in china. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hyundais-new-ioniq-v-undercuts-the-cheapest-ev-in-america-by-over-10000/

    FYI: Companies are getting your message and vibe. But so far it's just for farm tractors.

    https://wheelfront.com/this-alberta-startup-sells-no-tech-tractors-for-half-price/

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    There aren't no nonsense gas powered cars anymore. Everything is computer controlled.

    Anti lock brakes, collision avoidance, controlling the fuel injections. You have to go back to the models that used carburetors to get what you want. Then the federal goverment requires tons of expensive safety equipment and testing.

    I don't think OP is referring to any of that. More so the infotainments systems, touch controlled dashboards etc.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Idk, just because a car doesn't have a touchscreen doesn't mean the computers aren't tracking you. Anything with ADAS (advanced driver assistance systems) is going to phone home, and vehicles are required to have a lot of the systems now.

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  • [–] 48 points 4 weeks ago (27 children)

    Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn't require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It's just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn't sell well.

    Regarding the rolling data center, that's actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don't actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn't be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    There's a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don't understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).

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  • [–] 12 points 4 weeks ago

    In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.

    Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Seems hard to justify $25k for Slate (if you add absolutely nothing to it) vs. something from an established automaker for a similar price. For example, I think the Ford Fathom will also ship in 2027 (same year as Slate) for <$30k.

    I love Slate, but there's something (perhaps irrational) in my psychology that blocks me from paying $25k for a vehicle with manual-crank windows. I remember what it's like to reach across the cab to awkwardly roll up a window that a passenger left open. I paid <$1k for those old beater vehicles.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 weeks ago

    Jeff Bezos is one of their prime investors and is selling you a vehicle that requires you to plug your phone into it directly in order to function.

    As cool as the rest of the idea sounds that makes it an instant and permanent non-starter for me.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can't disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR's and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I'm not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    why would such work require an nda?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Because the company that "builds" the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I'm not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I'm sure it doesn't much matter. There's only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    Ah. So it's kind of a secret that they don't do their own work...

    Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I'd like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 weeks ago

    Not the same guy, but I've been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your 'old hatchback' is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that's gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn't bother with something that wasn't body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter's worth of weekends

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago

    Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it's a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn't have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can't handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won't drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (13 children)

    Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it's cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren't spying, hahaha

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  • [–] 16 points 4 weeks ago (10 children)

    I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (6 children)

    That's where I'm at. What's China realistically going to do with that data?? If I'm going to be spied on no matter what I'd rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Sell it to the same people that ford and everyone else are, so it can be used to fuck you over on jobs, insurance, etc etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Ok but how is that different than the American companies doing that exact same thing?? At least if China gets my data I'll get a reasonably priced EV out of it instead of paying 4-5 times the price for a similar product.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago* (1 child)

    I fucking love how people scream about how vile and evil a thing is, until china does it, then its either "plz leib poor china alone" or its "yes its evil, but i dont care because its cheaper.. but don't worry, as soon as it bites me in the ass i'll come back to cry about it, and will expect sympathy and coddling and not i told you so's"

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago

    I fucking love how people misinterpret comments to fit their own made-up narratives in their head.

    My data is going to be sold no matter if I buy American or Chinese. It is a bad thing either way. In one scenario im paying $15k for the EV. In the other scenario im paying $30k.

    Stop shadow boxing comments to feel good about yourself.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Sure, there's absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they're all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago

    Oh yeah if I buy American there's no way my data would get sold. American companies are known for their solid moral compass and they put customer satisfaction over profits. And there's never been a data breach from an American company ever!! :D

    And i want to be a good American consumer and pay an American car company 4x to 5x the price of the cheap and affordable Chinese EV. Since I got all this money from tariff rebate and doge checks I can afford to buy an American EV.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

    Then you're an idiot.

    because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.

    You're too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.

    and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you're driving past.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago

    I really doubt needing to find an American buyer is a barrier. Plenty of Chinese companies have become very good at finding American consumers. TikTok and Temu, for examples. (Or Alibaba, as a huge B2B example.)

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago

    For the laughs, look up Ford Fusion Energi [sic]. It's a PHEV retrofit, so it has a plug, very short EV range (12 miles? - that is if you can make it run in EV mode), but the best part is the trunk - the entirety of it is taken up by the battery, with enough space for maybe a briefcase, not even a bag of groceries.

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  • [–] 119 points 4 weeks ago (11 children)

    OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.

    We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn't limitteed to EVs.

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  • [+] -9 points 4 weeks ago (8 children)

    All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.

    You wish to elaborate on that bold claim a little? Because there's a ton of sensors that are present in combustion engine but not in EVs and they have everything to do with the engine.

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  • [–] 23 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    You must be invulnerable to arrows, with your ability to miss the point.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    You completely missed the point. OP made a claim "EV cars have lots of gimmicks", this comment is saying "so do non EV cars".

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  • [–] -4 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    this comment is saying “so do non EV cars”

    It's not though. Perhaps that is what they mean which is why I asked for clarification but it sure is not what they said.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    The discussion isn't about oxygen sensors or knock sensors. They're talking about all the 'smart' features that send all kinds of information about you to the manufacturers. These systems are present in almost all modern cars.

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