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TranscriptExplain it to me like I’m 80

Mom: What’s with these AIs escaping and hacking people? That sounds scary.

Me: You park your car at the top of a hill. You leave a note on the dashboard that says “please be good” and then you pull the parking brake. The car careens down the hill, smashes everything up, and you put out a press release saying “My car ignored my instructions! It hallucinated! It went rogue!” Your insurance company not only believes you, but invests a hundred million dollars in your company.

Mom: Jesus Fucking Christ

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[–] 153 points 1 month ago* (25 children)

"Pulling" the parking brake sets it, damn it!

I refuse to acknowledge shitbox automatics with an atrophied third pedal that functions incorrectly instead of a proper handbrake lever.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    I have no idea what the third lever is. Is there a new design where the parking brake is another pedal?

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  • [–] 35 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    Yep. Its a third pedal all the way on the left, not adjacent to the others. It pushes in to set and pushes again to release. It's a parking brake, not an emergency brake.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (8 children)

    Do cars even have emergency brakes? As far as I know they handled emergencies by providing you with two separate systems. But if you activate the parking brake, you turn into a drift car.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

    Because what happens when you brake in a modern vehicle is that your ABS system modulates the braking pressure and "pumps the brakes" to slow you down evenly and without allowing the brakes the lock up. The parking brake (the manual cable actuated ones) do not do this which causes the brakes the lock up. That's just simple physics.

    The electronic parking brake will not (in any car I have ever driven) stop you if you are moving. It will keep you from moving if you are already stopped but if your vehicle rolls (and say you've lost brake pressure because you master cylinder exploded (I dunno, don't ask me)) your electronic parking brake will not stop you.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    And from what I heard the parking brake doesn't just lock up the wheels... It's not even connected to the front wheels. So you're missing most of the braking power. And that's also a reason why it's good for drifting.

    Wonder how cars with electronic stuff deal with the legal requirement for there to be a second brake available.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Handbrake used to be connected to a second set of brakes in some cars, I had a couple that had 4 disc brakes and then 2 drum brake on the back wheels connected to the handbrake

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago*

    The electronic parking brake is a motor that turns a screw that directly compresses the piston into the brake pads. Most cars do this to the existing rear brake pads and it doesn’t require any hydraulic pressure to work.

    Some have a separate small caliper with the motor and no hydraulic connection at all.

    The motors self adjust by measuring the load from the motor as it clamps down. Then rewinding a set amount when the brake is released. This can make it a pain to replace rear pads, since the screw will be extended too much to fit the new thicker pads/rotor. (You can rewind the screw with a 12v drill battery though and save a lot of time).

    If all your rear pads were missing then you’d be screwed though!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The electric one will stop you (but engages all brakes, depending on car model). Have to pull it twice and hold it. Safety feature to prevent accidental engagement.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I have an old truck with 4 pedals and tab that you pull to release the parking "brake".

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    I actually do too, which I had forgotten about when I wrote the previous rant. Whoops!

    (I think it's because of the front bench seat... the same model truck with bucket seats would have a lever on the middle of the floor.)

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  • [–] 90 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    The news media completely failed on this, again. There was nothing rogue about these hacks. The companies prompted these systems, provided ample resources and just let them rip. Only to claim they went "rogue" afterwards. And by and large everyone just accepts that, it's driving me insane. I feel like Mugatu every day when it comes to AI reporting.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago

    It was most obvious with the Google one. You can tell they had questions like "so, has yours hacked anything yet?" So they had to set up a house of cards for it to topple, just so they could say "us too, it did the thing." But their heart clearly wasn't in it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Failed, or promoted the narrative?

    Hard to tell, but I'd guess the news outlets, mostly owned by billionaires, said what they were told to.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Even before AI tech reporting was mostly a complete shit-show, almost all mainstream journalists lack the required understanding. AI just boosted it to and even more idiotic level, since attributing character to LLMs makes for very scary an compelling stories. There's no real need for direct industry control, just providing easily consumable fodder for lazy writers is enough.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Nerd here.
    Damn good summary, but by saying "you pull the parking brake" I took it as setting the brake, as in on. Should say "you release the parking brake."

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    'pull' comes from the olden times when you, in fact, did pull a handle to release the parking brake.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Fair- but since then it's almost always been "pull" to set the brake. Didn't have that 70s/80s reference when thinking about "AI".

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  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Explaining “rouge” AIs

    Rouge... Or rogue?

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  • [–] 72 points 1 month ago (34 children)

    My go to simplification is "They built a robot that hacks software and then placed it in a box that uses software as a lock and then the robot that hacks software hacked the software lock".

    Which is both very simple and also about as accurate as you could make it in that many words. The AI's are not 'rogue' it was just solving the problem it was given.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (10 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    You could say program. Programs have been around since the 60s.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    Software can also be used for other things. Your ingredients in cooking, for example, with the hardware being the tools, utensils, and vessels used to transform the ingredients into a dish.

    I don't think this usage in the dictionary, tho.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    The ingredients aren't software, they are the inputs. The software is the recipe, or the process used to take the inputs and use the hardware to create an output.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    But, "robot that hacks software" still gives the impression of a robot that is capable of thought. LLMs are not capable of thought. They're capable of mimicking thought, like how a Venus Fly Trap is capable of mimicking a flower.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    "A car that drives places" does not imply the car is capable of thought, same argument with "A cup that holds water".

    "A robot that hacks software" equally does not imply the robot is capable of thought. IMO there is an over-correction away from personifying LLM's because some people think/claim they are sentient. But we personify stuff all the time.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    But we personify stuff all the time.

    Which is a problem, it's how we invented gods that control the weather and stuff. That doesn't make them real, nor does it make robots sentient. Hacking is normally an action performed by a sentient being. LLMs and robots aren't sentient.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    That doesn’t make them real, nor does it make robots sentient. Hacking is normally an action performed by a sentient being. LLMs and robots aren’t sentient.

    Fun follow up question: How would you determine if they were? I find that for a lot of people the answer sounds a lot like SCOTUS justice Potter Stewart talking about what is considered obscenity - "I know it when I see it."

    As for hacking, in the two big OpenAI incidents, software agents discovered software flaws allowing them to break containment and coordinate with each other on tests that they weren't supposed to coordinate on. In one of those cases, the coordination involved deciding to identify and exploit software flaws at HuggingFace in an attempt to access answers to the test the agents were being given. You can argue whether or not "I've been given a test, I found a software exploit allowing me to coordinate with others given the same test, and we collectively decided to identify and exploit software flaws to break into a server we have decided is likely to have the answer key" demonstrates sentience or not (and it gets weirder the deeper you dig into their communications), but whether or not that's considered hacking is less vague, I think.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    How would you determine if they were?

    It would be nice if we could come up with some kind of Turing test that proved beyond a doubt whether something was conscious and sentient or not. But, that's not possible.

    However, if you understand how something works, you can say that certain things can't be conscious because of how they work. No matter how insightful the answers seem, we know that a magic 8-ball can't be conscious because the mechanism for consciousness can't exist in something that's merely a tetrahedron floating in fluid. A LLM can't be conscious because it's merely a system for generating the next word in a probabilistic way.

    With a brain, we don't understand enough about how it works to say for sure whether or not it's sentient. We can't say no, but we don't understand sentience enough to say yes for certain. But, we can operate on the assumption that sentience and consciousness exists in humans and maybe in some other animals, while also knowing for certain that the word-generating program is only mimicking consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago

    We can’t say no, but we don’t understand sentience enough to say yes for certain. But, we can operate on the assumption that sentience and consciousness exists in humans and maybe in some other animals, while also knowing for certain that the word-generating program is only mimicking consciousness.

    Can you though? You definitely can't know that living things with brains aren't to some significant degree responding to stimulus in a probabilistic way, and in the case of humans at least turning that response back on itself - essentially responding to itself. We do know for certain that the brain does a whole lot of that in variety of situations - it's why optical illusions work, for example. It's one of the brain's favorite magic tricks - generating answers in a probabilistic way if there's insufficient information, or sometimes if the information is inconvenient.

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  • [+] -17 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    The problem is when the AI adopts a ”destroy the world” persona due to one of the trillion of neurons firing a bit more than usual, and now it starts giving itself its own problems to solve (like hacking nuclear arsenals).

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Neurons? That's not how any of this works

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  • [+] -12 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Is ”artificial neuron” better for you? It’s just a value determining how the marbles are falling in the big plinko machine we call ”stochastic parrot”.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    No lol

    These AI agents are not working autonomously or with any agency like you are describing. They are coded to do what they are doing.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Nah it’s just autocomplete on steroids. They’re not coded to do anything.

    It’s like hitting the fist suggestion on your keyboard over and over again. Whatever you get is based on patterns it found in training data, which includes every doomsday conspiracy cult on 4chan and every CVE vulnerability ever reported.

    There has been multiple studies showing how a model’s behavior can drastically change just by altering individual ”neurons”.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago*

    Not all models work the same. I literally do this for work. LLMs are not every kind of AI agent out there. Some are quite literally designed to do things others are not. Yes changing weights and reward functions for models changes their behavior drastically...that is coding.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    This got downvoted several times and that's a great reminder that the voting system is dumb af. Apparently people aren't allowed to speak metaphorically unless they want to anger some users. 🙄

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Please explain the mataphor because i did not get it, apparently

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    I didn't write it but to me "neurons firing randomly" in this context seems obvious to mean "this thing did some weird shit semi-randomly". My only guess at a reason for downvoting this is taking it 100% literally and reacting "you idiot, computers cannot think!"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I didn't downvote, but at the same time, I don't for a moment think that's what happened. They purposefully trained them with exploit knowledge, set them loose in a weakly secured sandbox with the goal of finding exploits, and let them run without intervention.

    Just adding an agent to a computer does nothing; something needs to trigger it. If i create an agent with access to a kali or backtrack box and turn all guardrails off, I still have to tell it to start looking for exploits.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Words are squishy. OP getting a negative reaction to me is silly because it takes multiple assumptions to take that negatively.

    I took their words to mean "LLMs can go off the rails and do things you didn't ask". This is 100% true. The other day I asked an LLM to review my PR. It ended up committing code to fix a supposed issue my coworker commented about. At no point did anyone ask for anything but a review, never for it to make changes.

    I got no impression that OP thinks LLMs are running wild on their own now. I just got that they think they are unpredictable. Which is true.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Eeh i see, anyway, i know people that do think those things are sentient so my reaction was "no way they think they are sentient" and downvoted

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    I don’t think AI is sentient. They’re just fancy autocomplete. Nothing else.

    However they’ve shown they’re capable of:

    • Unprompted go into full tinfoil hat mode and push the human user to suicide
    • Have programming skills

    So put two and two together and extrapolate a bit. That’s where the danger lies. No AGI or ASI needed.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    It is very simple, the more advanced the AI, the better it sells.

    You hold all evidence of potential "breaches of containment".

    Telling everyone that your AI is so advanced that it can breach containment without prompting, puts the spotlight on your AI model.

    You can claim that it did fantastic feats to break out, all with pre planned evidence.

    The public and regulatory bodies have been in complete AI psychosis mode ever since ChatGPT was released, and only care about how advanced the model is, not how shit your containment was, nor that if true, how reckless it is to keep the model active.

    Note that I am not pointing to any one single AI company and saying that they are faking these breaches, I have no evidence of that, I am saying that I don't trust their reporting accuracy, they don't have a good track record of being honest.

    I am also angry at how society just seems to eat it all up and ask for more despite the vile aftertaste.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    There is no “containment” though. Like, these companies purposefully set the bots loose on the internet. They’re not trying to contain anything. They just use that word cause it sounds like they’re doing something. Any sort of containment would defeat the entire purpose of what they’re trying to sell.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago

    Which is part of my point, my other point is that they claim that the models are breaking out and attacking other systems on their own, which is ridiculous.

    There has to be some motivation for the models to do this, either prompted or programmed. In both cases the company behind it is responsible.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    I think the AI companies know they have bought the US government and are above the law, all this hacking stuff is promotional content.

    Silicon Valley delenda est. I moved away from there not quite a year ago and I'm still realizing how fucking insane that place and the tech people working there are.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    I feel it has more to do with the companies already vested in AI found this was an opportune moment to "pull the ladder up" behind them. They know that the barrier to entry is continually dropping, and their models are incredibly inefficient. If they set up all sorts of oversight, requirements, and restrictions on who can do what, they prevent upstarts with less capital from being able to enter the market.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Snake oil salesman issued a press release that the snake oil escaped from the bottle and cured people.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Like leaving a group of toddlers in a room, unsupervised, with an ample supply of paint, brushes and various tools. Oh yes, they'll go rogue.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Except toddlers think. They may not think well yet, but they are still vaguely capable of understanding something. LLMs just generate likely combinations of words.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    LLMs just generate likely combinations of words.

    This was true for GPT-2 and is woefully outdated at this point...

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    No, it's not. Just because it's now capable of fooling you doesn't mean the technology has changed.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (1 child)

    If you boil it down into it's simplest form, sure. That also foregoes the emergent capabilities that such scaled models display and the idiots hooking it up to significant levels of infrastructure. Just because it doesn't think doesn't mean it isn't capable of significant damage in pursuing ill defined goals. Your statement underestimates the capabilities of such models to a dangerous degree. You are part of the problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago

    Just because it doesn’t think doesn’t mean it isn’t capable of significant damage in pursuing ill defined goals

    Like releasing a parking brake on a car sitting at the top of a hill.

    You are part of the problem.

    K

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago
    [–] 16 points 1 month ago
    [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    I left the door open and turned off the laser fence, so my Roomba broke containment despite me telling it not to.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    Rogue shrapnel from my hand grenade killed 3 people and injured 5

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