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[–] 117 points 5 months ago* (15 children)

1 = 壹 2 = 貳 3 = 參 4 = 肆 5 = 伍

These exist as well.

They're used in places where numbers should NOT be forged(i.e. bank documents...)

This is how they got their numeric meanings btw.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Does 0 have a shorthand character as well?

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    It's pretty complicated as-is so no.

    Edit: clearly misunderstood the question. see below.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    This reply makes no sense lol

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago*

    Sorry, I misunderstood what shorthand meant. I thought the question was whether there's a complex variant, like 一 → 臺 for 零.

    I'm an ESL speaker, so please forgive me.

    零 is the only character, as far as I know. 一, 二, ... are not shorthands; they're the original characters, while 臺 and other more complex forms are used only in certain situations where necessary.

    Hope this is what the questions was about.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I don't get 4. At least the kanji 4 looks very different

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeaaaah, I don't know Chinese, but I've never seen a kanji of four horizontal lines, just 四 for 4

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    I guess the image is a lie and the Kanji are chosen by the reading and not because they contain the number kanji. It's just that due to phonetic radicals, containing the number may give it the same reading.

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  • [–] 67 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Sure, when you mean "zero" it may look a bit excessive. But it's quite adequate if you want to express "Void, the Dark Realm of Nothingness and End of All Things".

    ps: Glory to ZA̡͊͠͝LGΌ.

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  • [–] 60 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    Yeah líng 零 is pretty annoying as a learner of the language.

    The top character is yŭ 雨 which means rain. Confusingly, this is the semantic component - the part that contains the meaning of the character. Explained below.

    The bottom character líng 令 means order/command as a noun and verb. This doesn't add meaning, it is the phonetic component: basically a pronunciation cue.

    It originally meant "light rain"/"falling in drops, like rain", actually. It began being used to mean "fragments" or "leftover part", then as "remainder" in the mathematical sense. Then, eventually, to mean 0. Another form of this líng is 霝 which means raindrops. It has 3 kŏu 口 ("mouth") characters on the bottom to visually represent drops.

    So, like a lot of Chinese characters, it really only makes sense when you understand the etymology - and even then it's kind of a stretch

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The fact that such intricate characters can even be displayed in such tiny fonts is nothing short of obscene lol, I wonder if chinese phones all have that Assistive / Readability Mode where the text is enlarged and high contrast by default, because I can't imagine reading texts like that haha

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    As someone who's learned Japanese a bunch: once you're very familiar with the symbols, you don't look at every little line to determine what character it is, just the general shape. The characters are built by combining a discrete and smaller set of "drawings" (called radicals). So the space of possible characters is limited to those combinations. On top of that, not every legal combination actually exists. You won't suddenly run into 鬱, but with a different radical in the bottom left, unless you're playing a trivia game of "spot the mistake" (which can even be difficult for native speakers, just in the same way it can be difficult for native English speakers to spell some words they'd have no trouble reading.)

    I would wager some misplaced lines wouldn't hurt readabiliity much in the same way we, in English aren't usually struggling to read a sentence even if some of the letters are swapped/missing or a "the" is duplicated, etc. I'm sure you've seen examples of that before in English (or your own native language if it isn't English).

    Of course in some instances, even a tiny difference can change the meaning of a sentence entirely. This is also true both in English and logographic languages. Luckily our brains do a lot of subconscious work here too and figure out where special attention is and isn't needed by using context and knowledge about the writing system.

    (Small caveat: of course, especially in languages, there are always exceptions to every rule. And also the brain can be tricked, intentionally or not, in a variety of ways.)

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    In OPs post, I see a stick figure guy pooping. Jack shit. Zero

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  • [–] 53 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    The concept of zero is scary, so it's a wizard shooting lightning from all orifices. Makes sense.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Under the arms and from the butt are the orifices?

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    No one has mentioned special 2, 两! It’s only for counting certain things.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I mean... in English we also use different words, such as "pair" and "dozen", for some specific numbers.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    But those are just words for "a group of a special size"

    Some eastern languages have totally different counting words depending on WHAT you're counting. One set of number-words for flat things, another set for long things, another set for printed/bound things, another set for things with handles...

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Huh. I learnt that 两 is for counting everything. Er is only used if you spell out a number. Like you can't say "erge ren", must be "liangge ren". Maybe you're confusing it with another liang character, the measure for cars?

    Sorry, I might be wrong, my Chinese isn't the best.

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  • [–] 189 points 5 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] 42 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    ~~strikethrough~~ --> strikethrough

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Wasn't working on my client which is why I did it the way I did ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (11 children)

    well atleast this post + Comments taught me some Chinese.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    And now an English lesson:

    The past tense of teach is taught. Teached is not a word.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    It's not an officially recognized word, but you understood what they were saying, so it still functions the same as the "correct" word.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Sure it is. I understood what you just said, therefore you successfully used the language. That is how English (and languages in general) works.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Now look ahead two steps and see how absurd that works out in practice. It's not even a hypothetical, we've seen this time and time again throughout history. The internet doesn't need dialect chains.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I understand my 3yo as well but that doesn't mean they should continue to speak that way just because they can technically be understood.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, but your 3yo isn't a stranger on the internet that you're condescending to, so the situation is a bit different, no?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Not entirely, because if I never corrected them they would be a stranger on the internet to SOMEONE talking that way eventually.

    Ultimately the ability to understand something doesn't make it correct and I get tired of the "language evolves" and "you understood it, right?" arguments because even if true we can also understand "me want job" and "John hungry" but it doesn't mean you shouldn't both attempt to speak correctly and continue to learn.

    I'm learning a second language and I would prefer to be corrected and speak naturally in it as much as possible rather than the bar simply being understood.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    I wasn't condescending to anyone. I presume, based on the incorrect tense form of a very common English word, and the fact that they appreciated learning a bit of Chinese, they might appreciate some polite correction. Not everything has to carry a negative tone

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    Japanese enters the chat:

    Left: numeral; middle: regular writing; final: certain formal and non-forgery usecases.

    または in point 7 means either variant is OK

    The last line says one can use the modern yen sign as well (though some would argue that it's bad manners in at least some situations, but I have no dog in that fight).

    万 = 10k. Several countries use both 1k and 10k units (Japan traditionally was on the 10k side but had a lot of influence so now we see both a lot. A used car price might be 130万円 or something ( = 1,300,000 yen)

    数字	通常の漢字	金額で使う旧字体(大字)  
    0	零	零  
    1	一	壱  
    2	二	弐  
    3	三	参  
    4	四	肆  
    5	五	伍  
    6	六	陸  
    7	七	柒(または 漆)  
    8	八	捌  
    9	九	玖  
    10	十	拾  
    100	百	佰  
    1k	千	仟  
    万	万	萬  
    円	円	圓(もしくは「円」のまま)  
    

    Chart from here that looks better: https://saiseich.com/business/kanji_kingaku/

    We have a way of writing numbers in certain situations. Think of it like checks in the US where we write things in a certain way so that the numbers can't be easily changed to increase the value or something.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago

    You don't divide by 0 in Chinese because he'll jump off the page and kick your ass.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago

    "Three, Two, One... NOTHING"

    scratches head in Mandarin

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago

    Lmao, I just picked up learning Kanji again after like 3 years (never had time in grad school)

    It is rough. But fierce repetition helps a lot. I can see the characters for "read a book" whenever I close my eyelids now hahaha

    Once something turns into muscle memory you don't forget.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I see a little person jumping up and spinning in midair to make an egg shape like a zero

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    零 isn't too bad as far as chinese characters are concerned. you should see the character for depression. or the biang biang noodles character, although that one is kind of a meme

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    I'm partial to the Japanese-invented 𱁬

    Here's in image in case it doesn't show up

    Though it's pretty simple once you see it's just 2 kanji repeated 3 times. There's also a good one that is 4 龍 in a 2 by 2 grid, meaning "verbose" (haha)

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    Fun fact, for a long time in history minus (-1) did not exist

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    In the history of mathematics, -1 was understood waaaay before 0.

    For the Greeks, doing 1-1 would be invalid, something close to dividing by zero for us.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Dividing by zero is well understood and sometimes even well defined.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    We know the limit of it and on a Riemann sphere it is defined as infinity.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    We know the limit of a/x as x --> 0 if a ≠ 0.

    The limit is different if a = 0.

    The limit of the division function under certain conditions is not the same as division - division has a discontinuity at 0 which is expressing the same thing.

    Defining division by zero only works if you don't care to preserve the field axioms, which is often inconvenient and so not done. The Riemann sphere is not a field, and fairly niche in the context of mere division, so I stand by my accusation of this being misleading.

    The policy of not defining division by zero to preserve the cancellation law is the most sensible default.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I saw a video years ago where somebody was talking (with a translator) to a tribe, I forget where. He asked how do they count. They would point with one hand to the other hand. Once they've got to five they start pointing to other parts of the arm moving upwards. He then asked what if you need to count higher. They looked confused, why would they need to count higher.

    For them they could exist without needing to count beyond teens.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    I'm not sure how accurate that is, calenders are pretty important for being able to survive, and surely they need to figure "do we have enough food to last the rest of this season".

    Maybe they have different math for that or there was an issue with translation.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    These dudes lived in the tropics and lived off the fat of the land. They didn't need to worry about seasons in the way more northern/southern hemisphere people do.

    Totally agree though. Maths, astrology, water sources, farming. All very important to sustain a civilisation.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Mathematics for much of human history was discrete - it had to be connected to something tangible which you can see, touch or feel. Negative numbers first arose in China, subsequently the use numerical operations on negative numbers and the conceptualization and use of zero arose in India. Spiritual concepts within dharmic philosophies such as Buddhism helped lead to these ideas.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    Binary calculations must be a nightmare for some

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Lil fella with smelly armpits and the buttsquirts?

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    write all of the numbers on top of each other then scribble on them. does that look anything like zero? i don't know kanji, i'm just understanding my own bad handwriting and trying to understand how they'd get there

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Interesting pop science read though I would contend that the Babylonians did not invent zero, they used it as a placeholder in their base 60 number system. They did not use it in numerical operations or ended numbers with it.

    I would argue the Hindus/Buddhists or India at a time contributed a lot more than "worshipping" it, whatever that means in this context. The currently ubiquitous decimal place value system, which was developed there, was based on the foundation of zero being a unique entity upon which numerical operations could be performed - much more than a placeholder.

    Broadly, Western thought in the age of antiquity saw the idea of zero as representative of void or nothingness which was not seen in a positive light philosophically so it was to be avoided. Eastern thought came to see zero as potential ie. an empty canvas, or detachment that could lead to liberation. This more positive framing, which was rooted in Eastern spirituality, opened the door to further exploration and development of the concept.

    When we think about the transmission of the number system we use today (including zero) from east to west we can draw a fairly straight line from Aryabhata, Brahmagupta, Al-Khwarizmi, Piero della Francesca, to Leonardo Da Vinci and onward.

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