post
Except there was no online play
That was a feature, not a limitation.
Updates, too. Games had to actually be in their final state before they could be sold.
Not that they were a lot of the times...
Yea, people wanna act like games of the past didn't have game breaking glitches and, since no updates, were stuck with working around them.
Missing No. anyone? PS2 Soul Calibur 3 glitch that wiped your entire Chronicles campaign (and sometimes even the ENTIRE PLAYER FILE) because of how the memory card wrote the data?
There are pros and cons, obviously. Getting a game that was extremely well tested and nearly bug free on day 1 was great. But, not all games were that well tested, and many had gameplay-breaking bugs that you just had to live with because there was no way to update them.
Games were far better when they didnt update every fucking day. I hate it so much.
Oh, and I actually OWNED the disc or cart I bought (before online activation shit)
Thats why i play a lot more ps2 Dreamcast and Xbox now. Fuck (most) modern games.
Eh, it really depends on the game. Obviously no game should be dependent on the internet to be playayble, but I do actually like playing against (or with) other people. Mario Kart with NPCs gets boring after a while, and unfortunately bringing friends over to my house to play games wasn't really an option, so online it was. Splatoon is another one that has always been a delight, and while I love story mode obviously the AI can't fight like a human.
I don't really play shooters and stuff though.
Also consoles had modem peripherals since at least the Famicom days, some of which did allow multiplayer. Namely, there was the Family Computer Network System, however apparently it was an information service with some downloadable content, rather than a multiplayer service.
Wikipedia says that both Satellaview for SNES and 64DD for N64 had online gaming, but idk how exactly it worked.
Regarding the last paragraph, developers have adapted, and now include more complex/obscure secrets meant to be shared by people and solved together. Though of course if players just look things up before even trying then you can't stop them, but that's their own fault.
The modern scourge are dataminers, who will immediately jump to digging through game files and spoil puzzles in the communities trying to solve them. Not all of them will do that, but it only takes one to ruin the fun.
Also Tunic is an absolute banger of a game, would recommend, just don't spoil yourself!
Reading the manual on the way home to get the back story and basic idea of how to play so when you actually started, you didn't have to sit through a 20 minute cutscene and another 30 min tutorial showing you how to jump. Just straight into the action.
Many years ago, you read an instruction book without knowing it was going to be your last.
Treasure every moment.
I miss that games were completely finished and polished, put on a disk, and never touched again.
I miss that you used to truly own them. They really were entirely yours.
"Completely finished and polished", except in the cases they weren't, like the mountains of shovelware in every gen π
Never touched again was only true up to PS2 era and only for consoles, PC had update patches since the 90s
The thing about updates is that they weren't needed that much. Games didn't release half broken at 3FPS because "we'll just fix it later, maybe"
Same as they don't often do today.
Most games are in early access in the state you mention. But that's the thing, it's most often clearly labeled and you are free to wait until actual release.
That's just plain better imo.
Not talking about EA games, I mean games released in a terrible state like Cities Skylines 2 or Cyberpunk
Game design is better today than it's ever been. For most of us I think it's just nostalgia for our childhoods and for living in simpler times that makes us think otherwise.
I mean have you ever gone back and played a classic game that you didn't grow up with? It's rough. I've plumbed the depths of the NES virtual console and found that all the best games just happen to be the ones I've already played. That's probably not a coincidence.
Even when the game is genuinely great, there's still a mountain of bullshit and bad game design to get through, which is just unnecessary today.
With that said, everyone in this comment section needs to check out UFO 50. It's a collection of 50 "retro" games by a group of indie games designers, and it's absolutely brilliant.
It's a loving recreation of playing games how they used to be played, except it's cleverly laced with subtle, modern design features that make the retro goodness so much better. It's like combing through old ROMs trying to find a diamond in the rough, except there's more diamond than rough.
Speaking of Easter eggs, UFO 50 also has a hidden meta-narrative buried deep in the collection, detailing the dark history of the fictional company that made them.
Iβve actually begun a quest to go back and finish all the games I didnβt play / didnβt finish from the past. NES, SNES, N64, and PSX. To my surprise, Iβm actually enjoying some of these games much more than I did as a kid.
The gameplay is quite simple but itβs really well executed. There are a lot of games that just try to do one or two interesting things and then explore how far they can go with that. Nowadays, games seem to take more of a βkitchen sinkβ approach which tends toward some features being much better developed than others, and first-order-optimal strategies abound.
Sure, there are also plenty of retro-inspired games (like UFO 50), but I view those as a return to the design principles of old, rather than a refutation of them.
That's fair. There were good things about being able to design games at that scale. One of the reasons UFO 50 works so well is because the number of games means that each game could be its own discrete thing. They could include small, arcade-style games like Ninpek and Magic Garden, that focus on a core concept instead of trying to add value.
But I also think the refutation in UFO 50 is more like a silent correction.
Barbuta starts with an immediate moment of unfairness as a joke, and then it provides a game that's much more fair than the games it's inspired by. It simulates the jank but doesn't expect you to put up with it for the whole game.
Ninpek is another example. Can you imagine getting through that game with just three lives? That's how it would have been designed in the 1980s, and that's the game they present to you at first. But as you get better at playing the game, it reveals that you're actually going to get a lot more lives than that. In a brilliant bit of sleight of hand, those two things happen at the same time, making it feel like you're just mastering a difficult game.
Porgy is the same way, but more directly. It kicks your ass in the first thirty seconds, then immediately backs off the difficulty. That first impression makes it feel like it's more punishing than it actually is.
Most of the collection is like this to some extent, and I think that's for the best.
There definitely are seriously janky and just plain bad games for all systems in the past. The difference is that there is a much higher proportion of good games from that era due to the smaller number of games overall.
There were 675 games released for the NES in North America during its lifespan. If you take the top 100 games youβd find that most are good games worth revisiting and many are great games considered widely to be classics.
On the other hand, well over 10,000 games are released on Steam every year since 2021. How many of those have you even heard of, let alone could you say are worth playing?
Sure, itβs not fair at all to blame the developers of great games coming out today for all of the slop and endless clones they have nothing to do with. But discovery is a huge problem now and itβs only getting worse!
For context, the NES library was actively curated by Nintendo, that's what their "seal of quality" was about. There were a few bootlegs, but unless you had a niche for that bootleg (see that Bible game) I suspect the complexity and cost of developing for the NES heavily discouraged bootlegs.
I think we gain more than we lose by the lower barrier to game development and publishing, quality indie games can get much more traction (unfortunately many do get buried in the slop) and games with niche marginalized audiences are more able to exist and find that audience now. YouTubers have been a big source of finding indie games for me, and sometimes recommendations from people on social media. I guess I have the opposite problem - I've got so much stuff on my wishlist and owned game backlog that I want to play that I'd probably have to spend the next decade of my life just playing games to get through them all.
None of what Iβm saying should be taken as an argument that game developers should give up or something like that. The situation is much better now than it was. Heck, a lot of NES game developers had to design their sprites on graph paper and input them into the gameβs ROM file by hand, by typing in the raw numbers in hexadecimal! Clearly we now have a lot better ways of doing graphics than that!
I just want to push back against the general notion that βold games are outdated/obsolete/etcβ or that new games are always better than old games by virtue of having more features, flashier graphics, better sound etc. Thereβs tradeoffs with everything and I think the kitchen sink approach to game design isnβt obviously correct.
We went through the same historical trends with painting, music, and movies. Now if you look at more recent trends in classical music, thereβs a lot of focus on minimalism, compared to the opulence of the baroque and classical periods.
see that Bible game
I had this game growing up, and it was actually pretty good.
The bad games aren't pushing out the good games. More games means more good games.
Even if we're judging proportionally, you can't count games that no one is playing. If I give my toddler a harmonica, does that make music worse? Only if I force you to listen to it.
That top 100 list kind of proves my point, because a lot of those games are excruciating to play nowadays. I loved Final Fantasy 1 when that was the only RPG I owned, but it would be unplayable by today's standards. Because today's standards are much, much higher.
In terms of games that are worth revisiting because of their historical or artistic significance? There are plenty in that list. But in terms of games that would be good by today's standards? I don't think 1/3 of it makes the cut.
I disagree. Iβd much rather play FF1 than play the latest FF game. Modern Final Fantasy games are way too easy for my taste. Theyβre more like movies with a load of very soft mechanics, with all the sharp edges sanded off.
Thatβs really common across the board. I know a lot of people love modern Soulslike games but I much prefer the fast, crunchy combat of a game like Zelda II over the smooth, floaty, anticipation-based controls of Dark Souls.
Thereβs a lot of other comparisons like this. The original Metroid is very rough, lonely, and lacks an automap which makes it easy to get lost. Later games in the series surround you with helpers that eliminate all sense of isolation and bombard you with hints and automaps that make it impossible to lose your way.
Lots of modern players would call these systems βobjectively betterβ and I wonβt contradict their preference, I only deny the objectivity of it. As I see it, many of these improvements are actually tradeoffs. Many modern players, for example, hate getting lost. Well I like getting lost and a lot of modern games simply wonβt let me! I like getting stuck in games and having to do serious problem solving to figure it out. Many modern gamers get impatient and give up on games like that. They might even call it excruciating, as you do.
Anyway, none of this is intended to convince you to be a retro gamer like me. You love what you love and hate what you hate. I just hope itβs a little bit clearer why folks like me have all this nostalgia, as depicted in the comic.
I agree with your critiques of modern games, especially the part about floaty anticipation-based gameplay.
But I gotta disagree about Final Fantasy 1 being harder. It's not hard; it's just tedious. There's no beating it without grinding, and the grind is the same thing, over and over, with no variance. If tedium is your thing, great, but the biggest barrier to beating Final Fantasy 1 is boredom, and I don't think that's good game design in any decade.
So just to be clear, I'm not talking about difficulty in a fair game. Bubble Bobble is possibly my favorite NES game of all time, because even though it's stupid hard, the controls are so tight that every death is your own fault.
I also have nostalgia for these old games. I'd just never try to argue that they were better from a design standpoint. The industry has come a long way. Standards are higher, and the artform has grown.
Believe it or not, some people like grinding! Thereβs an element to grinding-based RPGs that you donβt really see anywhere else: the ability to tune the gameβs difficulty level on the fly, through your own gameplay. If youβre stuck on a section of the game, you can decide to grind a lot until itβs trivially easy to pass, or you can grind less and try to push your luck.
FF1 is really nice for this because you canβt just save your game anywhere, you need to stay at an Inn in town or spend a tent/cabin/house to save on the world map. You canβt save your game in dungeons at all. This means your expedition into a dungeon must be completed in one go.
Since grinding is the way you make your party stronger (and hence the dungeon easier), you can decide how much grinding you want to do before taking a shot at the dungeon. If you mess up and the party gets wiped, well thatβs too bad! This really does give the game a push your luck mechanic and allows you to try to conquer the dungeon with a minimal amount of grinding.
Later games in general tend to go out of their way to avoid this at all costs, with the exception of Soulslike games that I mentioned earlier (as well as Roguelikes, which I happen to be a huge fan of), because game developers are often quite afraid of players losing progress (and players have become accustomed to this).
Metroid is also like this. You can spend a lot of time grinding your energy back to full or you can push your luck and try to explore without getting hit. Itβs a challenge that later games in the series heavily mitigated by providing abundant recharging stations.
Final Fantasy XVI was good though... Not even the same genre as FF1, really, so dunno if I'd compare them.
Iβm sure it was, my comment was just stating my preference. Thatβs the main direction this whole thread seems to have taken: me defending the validity of preferences for retro gamers.
It seems a lot of people are puzzled by this and actually just believe that these old games are objectively worse. To me, thatβs really sad, because it represents a failure to communicate and understand one another.
But that's the thing, just because "the newest final fantasy" is bad, doesn't mean that today's games are bad, just final fantasy. Don't compare final fantasy 1 with 14, compare it with idk, octopath traveller or similar.
Don't compare old Metroid with new Metroid, compare it with hollow knight.
Etc etc
Dunno if you've seen this, but you seem like a big fan: https://www.fangamer.com/collections/ufo-50/products/ufo-50-players-guide
I got a copy, it's really cool. Pretty reminiscent of old video game guides, but set in an alternate universe where these games and consoles were real.
I did get it! Also most of the other UFO 50 merch on that site, like the t-shirt and the pins. Great t-shirt. Better fit than the Tunic one I got from there.
I was slightly disappointed that the guide didn't reveal another layer of the meta-narrative like I'd hoped, but it's still a neat object and very well made.
Graphics are better than ever, but design itself has been moving at a glacial pace for decades.
Definitely. Like I think a lot of people forget that the older generation of games, like the 8bit era especially, were arcade ports that were designed to eat quarters and not really modified much when moved to console. That was the main reason it was like, "here's your three lives to get through the next 15 levels and when you're out go fuck yourself start over loool".
I was an 80s kid and have tons of nostalgia for the time and the games even but to put it simply, there were not many games back then that you were getting more than a couple hours out of unless you were getting your shit pushed in constantly due to the artificial difficulty designed to suck up those quarters at the arcade. Even games like the original Legend of Zelda, if you know what to do ahead of time youre only talking a few hours of actual content. For platformers it was far less...Ninja Gaiden, a brutally difficult game...turn on invincibility and you can speed run that shit in like what, 20 minutes?
And not to toot my own horn but there would be games I paid $50 for that Id have done in an afternoon and then what? Nothing, play again I guess. Which sometimes was worthwhile, other times not so much.
Even later the ethos was still there, just instead of the quarter stealing mechanic, it was the "dont let them finish it in a rental period" mechanic...they wanted people to buy, not rent.
But, I do definitely miss the simplicity. No fuckin achievement chasing bullshit, no fucking unlocks, no dlc...they couldnt as easily release 40% of a game and lock the remaining 60% behind season passes and shit.
And of course having the whole game be dependent on multi-player and an active community for it to worth a shit beyond the first 60 daya. How many full price AAA games out there that lasted a few mere months befoee the server was a ghost town and nothing to do in the single player game.
Cest la vie lol
The biggest pain point of the oldest games is that they came out of the arcade era, so they were specifically designed to lack save features, and be so punishing that you would spend more of your quarters playing them.
I did a playthrough of both Castlevania 1 and Megaman 1. After a while I gave in and started using savestates, and suddenly both games became amazing. Jumping over Dracula's fireballs is a lot more dramatic when you have to do it with pixel precision.
This discussion always makes me think of Super Meat Boy, which is a perfect case study for how punishing difficulty can be incorporated without poisoning the experience for the player. SMB is hard as fuck and demands impossible precision from the player, but there's no punishment for failure. You die, you try again immediately. It makes the two second door animation in Mega Man feel like an eternity.
And when it came out, it felt strangely innovative. Like, it's obvious in hindsight, but just reducing the punishment to 0 turns it from an exercise in frustration into a game that trains the player to perfection without holding their hand.
If I remember correctly, I think one of the Rayman games were one of the first to try a gameplay loop like that. They definitely tend to feel better, but I think it depends on the game too.
Like some of the Souls games can have fairly punishing boss battles, where losing comes with the penalty of a painfully of a relatively long and dangerous trek just to get your ass handed to you again. If they did that for every boss I would hate the games, but that they throw usually just one of those in there makes them just frustrating enough to be extra spicy.
How in the fuck has no one yet said:
No Microtransactions.
No Gacha Games (literally 50% of current year gaming).
No Games As A Subscription Service.
No Games With Perpetual DLC (that are each as expensive as other entire games).
Overall it was better, but you also had more macrotransactions.
Wanted to play as Vega in Street Fighter 2? Buy the whole game again.
What's that - another character pack? Buy it a third time.
Are you talking about platform exclusive content?
I didn't play very many old school fighting games.
As best I can tell, Vega was a boss in SF2, but a playable character in later iterations of the series.
If your complaint is that... games in popular IP /series will do fairly regular releases with not really too much substantially different between each one...
This is a thing that went on 20 years ago, and still goes on today.
Mario Kart 8... 9? 10?
Are we at Call at Duty 24 now, I think?
Hey, are you intetested in Madden... 31?
Pokemon versions... latest silly pair of opposing concepts?
Yeah this is dumb and stupid, but its not a thing that is different between nowadays, and ye olden days.
I think they were referencing that on SNES and Genesis Street Fighter 2 had multiple releases in quick succession that made minor changes to the game and added a couple characters.
Street Fighter II: Champion Edition released in March 1992 on Genesis
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior came out on June 10, 1992 on SNES
Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting came out on July 10, 1993 on SNES
Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers came out on September 14, 1993 for SNES/Genesis
Super Street Fighter II Turbo came out on February 23, 1994
Again these were all more or less the same game, sold at full price, that had minor gameplay changes between versions and added between 0-4 new characters each time.
Look, I have been replaying Prince of Persia Sands of Time these last few days and it's just fucking incredible how streamlined it is.
the pause menu is just resume/options/quit? no inventory management, skill tree, quest tracker, or other bullshit? Remember this is the IP that spawned Assassin's Creed
also.. it still looks great, with relatively detailed interiors and architecture, great animations and soundtrack, characters quipping about and it all manages to run on 256Mb of ram??
Freelancer was a space shooter that ran on a pentium 3 laptop with an ATI RAGE 8MB video card.
It was dope.
32MB of RAM.
That shit was on the PS2.
Sands of Time is straight-up one of the best games of all time, and that's even including the not-great combat which makes up a lot of it, and a few puzzles which just grind the whole thing to a complete stop. Its quality is not completely representative of its era.
What is representative of its era, is that it's a complete bastard to run nowadays. Requires a GPU with hardware transform and lighting, but also a single-core CPU, which means you need a very specific age of computer to run it. Even patched up, there's some things that just don't look right - I've never managed to get it running with the portals to secret areas looking the way they should.
I am quite envious of you being able to replay it, tho. Think I gave up the last time I tried.
Developers didn't really know what would work and what wouldn't, so they fucked around until they found something. No endless clones of the same idea. Extremely weird gameplay, often utter bullshit, sometimes a gem. It was great.
No endless clones of the same idea.
:-/
In the 70s and 80s, video games were so simple and straightforward, usually due to limited computing power, that it was trivial to create clones of games for other systems. Many of the most popular games of the early years of gaming such as Pong, Frogger, Arkanoid, Centepede, etc. were cloned heavily or were clones themselves.
Case in point, six different Tetris knock offs released between 1989 and 1997.
Another notorious instance was The Simpsons: Road Rage, which was a simple reskin of the then-popular Crazy Taxi.
I'll admit to having done a simple reskin myself, for a high school English project, that involved swapping out PacMan for a boat and the ghosts for angry natives. I christened it "Heart of Darkness: The Video Game" and got an easy A for my trouble.
No updates, that's actually a plus in my mind these days, considering how many games they've taken down. You can't take a disk from someone's game collection, but you can certainly remove it when it's been purchased digitally.
I really miss the old days β now we even need to pay to progress in games. Mobile game devs are just craving money
Ahhhh the little sleeves in the crystal cases that you would read excitedly on the way home.
Gog tries to give you as much of this as possible
Including as close as you can get to TRUE OWNERSHIP.
Once it's in your hard drive, and you've backed it up, it will NEVER brick itself on purpose. It never phones home. It never revokes your "license". You can install it on any computer at anytime anywhere, even MULTIPLE computers, and it doesn't ask you shit.
This reminds me so much of that time I got Red Alert from my parents. I was so happy, until I figured out it was the expansion Red Alert: The Aftermath. I had to wait so long before I got the base game I probably read the instruction manual and cover 10 times over. But that was enough to keep me happy till I got the original.
Reminds of asking for Final Fantasy Tactics for Christmas. I didn't realize the game was almost impossible to find until the Greatest Hits reprint.
My parents misunderstood and got me the strategy guide for Final Fantasy VIII. I think I was disappointed at the time, but I still got their money's worth out of that book.
no updates How many old games actually made it to the store still needing updates? I have heard of at least one, maybe two, games which had real game-breaking bugs and could have used an update to fix them.
Often secret codes hidden in the manual
Or the "DRM" of the time, copy protection where the game would either stop and ask you for the Xth word of the Yth paragraph on page Z of the manual. Or the code wheels.
JUSTIN BAILEY ------ ------
In the megaman II manual, the section where it explains how to enter save codes (its like a matrix where you fill in the bubbles), it had an example code, which gave you all the boss items.
Older games were a lot simpler too. No loot boxes, multiple forms of currency - some of which could only be bought with real money, invasive DRM, season passes, content pulled back by selling it to you as DLC, extremely long game times artificially extended by things like mapping gimmicks, giant and almost barren worlds, unoptomized graphics requiring top of the line graphics cards that would still turn your room to a furnace, and massive amounts of bugs and glitches that may or may not be patched out at a later time.
If you really like the nostalgia of old instruction booklets, or buying a game outside your spoken language, try Tunic. Fantastic game
Jak & Daxter: The Precursor Legacy for the PS2 had a roughly 1.5' x 2' fold out poster that had a map of the playable world with small bits of lore. It even had a short message from your uncle telling you good luck on your journey. The other side had an image of Jak & Daxter on the A-grav zoomer. This was way back in 2001.
I remember as a kid pulling it out and reading it so many times that the corner folds started to wear out.
Similarly, Ratchet & Clank also had a poster with all the weapons & gadgets you'd use with small bits of info for each item. The reverse side also had R&C, however I can't remember if Ratchet was just holding the Devastator or if they were on a grind rail.
I miss getting those with the games. It made them so much more special and unique.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of the most amazing things of pre-internet games: No wikis or video tutorials.
Sure there were some magazines if you were lucky and they might offer some hints or maps that could help but that's nothing compared to the full playthroughs you can find hours after a new game releases today. You might think that made the games harder and more frustrating and you'ld be right. You could struggle for weeks to get past a single level.
But that also meant that every victory you had was your own. That was a feeling that is very hard to obtain today without a lot of self discipline.
whoopse I tripped and dropped my https://finji.itch.io/tunic link
the same developers as A Night in the Woods you say?
top 95 comments