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[–] 116 points 1 year ago (8 children)

A genderino sounds more like something you'd find in particle physics than biology anyway

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Physicists are freaky, like who was out there going and asking quarks what is their power dynamic in sex?

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  • [–] 92 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    I'm a career physicist, and I honestly have no idea what a state of matter is anymore.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    I would wager you have more of an idea of what a state of matter is than biologists do of what a species is. Humans like to put things into neat boxes but nature is under no deal obligation to cooperate.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'd actually argue the opposite. With states of matter, we're attempting to delineate how reality groups together sets of related properties that vary between conditions in similar ways for different substances.
    Looking for the edges that nature drew.

    With species though, we drew the lines. We drew them with a mind towards ensuring it's objectively measurable but it's still not a natural delineation. Taxonomists (biologists are actually a different field) mostly run into uncertainty with debating which categorization property takes precedence, and what observations of species have actually been made.
    So while they debate which system to use, the particulars of the systems are pretty concrete.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    States of matter and species are both cases where we drew the lines based on what we thought was obvious. Then we ran into cases that were not so obvious anymore and challenged how we define these lines.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Simple, "solid state" means "no moving parts", like a vacuum tube, for example.

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  • [–] 175 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    When Newton worked out the laws of motion, he figured they had to be correct because they were so simple and elegant.

    He had no idea that relativity was going to come in and fuck his shit up.

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  • [–] 72 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Which is also simple and elegant

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And then string theory. Which . . .

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mean relativity is elegant enough in its own right; it's just Newton's laws plus the constancy of the speed of light and the equivalence principle. These two additions are enough to make everything an order of magnitude more fucked up, but that's math's fault, not relativity.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    relativity only applies at large scales and quantum at small scales.

    for everything else, esp earth bound, classic mechanics is works just fine.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    "applies" isn't the word I would use. It's not like nature has a line that once you pass some threshold of mass, acceleration or distance it needs to flip the relativity switch.

    Probably say "becomes noticable".

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The point is that he just assumed there was nothing more to know. And he was wrong (tho I'm not gonna knock the dude who invented calculus too hard).

    The comic is trying to point out that bigotry is generally born out of a lack of curiosity.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    And i'd fundamentally disagree. plenty of curious people use their curiosity to perpetuate and develop new forms of bigotry.

    history of science is loaded with people using new concepts to perpetuate and reinforce racism, sexism, etc. and that is still very much done today.

    it's a naive to assume curiosity is a cure for ignorance. some of the most curious and smart people I know are also the most racist/sexist and pridefully ignorant. some of the dumbest/least curious people I know the least bigoted.

    if anything, i'd say the biggest correlation is about whether or not the person believes in a sense of a social pecking order/competition. those who deeply believe in it are furiously trying to crab bucket their way up it by pushing others below them. those who don't... just don't care about people's perceived status no matter it's basis.

    knowledge is a cure for nothing. it's just knowledge. and knowledge changes over time.

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  • [–] 96 points 1 year ago (19 children)

    i think that if more people were exposed to advanced math there would be a reactionary trend of people going around and asking mathematicians “what is a number?”

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    sort of like the reactionary trend of pulling your kids out of school because Common Core has changed how math is taught so critical thinking and conceptual understanding is incorporated, rather than teaching math by rote memorization?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'm shocked that the US only adopted this in 2009. I'm pretty sure my mum, who went to primary school in the 70s, recognized number lines when I was taught to use them on 2005ish. I'm having a hard time imagining how else you'd explain it.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago*

    look, we work very hard on being reactionary here in the U.S., we're a world leader in reactionary politics, and not teaching math well is crucial to keeping a vibrant slave worker population, otherwise they might start, you know, thinking for themselves

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    First you make them memorize single digit subtraction X - Y where X >= Y. Then you extend that to small double digit numbers.
    Then you teach "borrowing". 351-213. Subtract the 1s column. Can't take 3 from 1, so borrow 10 from the 5 in the 10s column, making 11 in the 1s column and 4 in the 10s.

    Definitely more clear, right?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    So, I understand that the number line is a way to conceptualize relational distances between numbers, but in that example I'm struggling to see the relation between 57 where the line ends and 111, the answer. If you have insight, do you mind elaborating?

    Edit: actually... Aren't the numbers they wrote in on the line WRONG? Why did they go down by 20 to 107, then by 10 to 57 arbitrarily? If you do 10 instead, then increment by 1 to 111... You get the answer. Did the person solve it wrong and put the right answer to get people outraged?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think they were trying to demonstrate the second type of dot should be increments of 10 - the missed step in the original answer - and both messed it up (started with an increment of 20 as you pointed out) and extended it way beyond what was required for the problem at hand.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I believe that's what happens anytime they say that we probably shouldn't focus on memorizing a multiplication table, or try to teach anything in a way that puts more focus on understanding how numbers work than on symbolic memorization.
    And that's like... Elementary school.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    The whole new math everyone was complaining about is trying to do this. Granted teachers are human and flawed so sometimes it has not been implemented well, but it is aimed in the right direction.

    I am absolutely going to start responding to questions / statements about gender with this concept though.

    "There are only two genders"

    "Yeah, and there are only 3 states of matter! These woke scientists with their DEI alphabet soup of mattet B-E Condensates, and QSL, and DEGERATE MATTER! Its sick I tell you"

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I was going to make a comment about surreal numbers not being numbers. But I did a bit of fact checking and it looks like all of the values I was objecting to are not considered surreal numbers, but rather pseudo numbers.

    I find this outrageous. Why can't ↑ be a number? What even is a number that would exclude it and leave in all of your so-called numbers?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Where in those axioms does it say that ↑ = {0|∗} = {0 | {0|0} } is not a number? No where, that's where!

    The actual reason that ↑ is simply that it is too ill behaved. The stuff I thought were the "numbers" of combinatorical game are actually just called Conway games. Conway numbers are defined very almost identically to Conway games, but with an added constraint that makes them a much better behaved subset of Conway games.

    I suppose you could call this an axiom of combinatorical game theory; but at that point you are essentially just calling every definition an axiom.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    There is a slight difference though in that complex numbers are a part of math but gender isn't really a part of biology.

    Also the mathematicians wouldn't decline to give an answer.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago*

    Also the mathematicians wouldn’t decline to give an answer.

    Are you sure? I only minored in math, but even I would struggle to provide an answer to this. It would have to be something incredibly vague, like "a number is a mathematical object that has certain consistent properties relevant to the field of study." Because otherwise you get situations like "is infinity a number?" and you can't answer categorically, because usually it's not, but then you look at the transfinite numbers where you can indeed have omega-plus-one as a number. And someone asks if you can have an infinite number of digits to the left of the decimal place, and you say "well, not in the reals, but there are the P-adic numbers..." and folks ask if you can have an infinitely small number and you say "well, in the reals you can only have an arbitrarily small number, but in game theory there are the surreal numbers, where..."

    So yeah, I'm not sure "what is a number" is even a math question. It's more a philosophy question, or sometimes a cognitive science question (like Lakoff and Nuñez's "Where Mathematics Comes From").

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    have you taught?

    anytime you give people a new metaphorical hammer, they want to go around banging everything they can with it. then they get bored and forget about it.

    pop psych is a great example. people love to go around diagnosing everyone with whatever new schema of diagnosis is popular and trendy. trans is very trendy right now and it's become on point for kids to identify as trans or some other non binary sexual identity. whether or not it sticks in the future, not sure. there is a counter-movement as well towards reinforce trad gender binaries in the dating sphere for sure. i've noticed as i age that a lot more people start caring a lot more about trad gender role stuff than they did in my 20s.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago

    If certain people could almost understand they would be very upset

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  • [–] 113 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    though the meme is cool, gender isn't particularly a biology (or 'advance biology') thing. biology deals with sexes, their expressions and functionalities. gender is more of a personal and social concept but often related to sex characteristics (cis).

    and yes, advanced biology tells sex determination isn't as easy as XX or XY or even looking at genitals like a creep.

    and oh, for giggles consider fungi :)

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  • [–] 75 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Adding to this: XX and XY works for mammals, but not for other vertebrates (fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians). Birds and reptiles have Z and W chromosomes, and unlike in mammals where females are homozygotes, males in these groups are homozygotes. Some reptiles have temperature dependent sex determination, where ambient temperature above some value will produce males or females (depends on species). Some reptiles are composed entirely of females.

    Some fish will straight up change sexes depending on age and male-female ratio in a social group.

    In other groups it's not even different chromosomes but simply copy number of specific genes.

    Plants can do all sorts of whacky things like produce seeds and pollen in the same individual.

    Fungi are an entirely different cluster fuck because they have mating types which are not simple binaries.

    Eukaryotic sex determination isn't a binary and it isn't even a nicely categorizable spectrum. It's a grab-bag of whatever doesn't perma-fuck your genome.

    Source: me, I'm a biologist. Though admittedly I work on animals so my understanding of fungi and plant stuff is fuzzy at best.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    https://xkcd.com/435/

    I would say gender is probably centered about around psychology, ranges mostly from sociology to biology, with a just little bit going into chemistry

    maybe like

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    I don't entirely agree, because gender identity is known to be at least partially biological, e.g. there are correlations between transgender, skin elasticity, and hyper-flexibility.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    just FYI, "transgenderism" is a word to avoid (at least if you don't want to be perceived as transphobic)

    and yes, gender identity seems to be biological, and genetic.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    my bad, updated to "transgender," I read online that's the preferred noun form (though it looks more adjectival to me)

    gender identity is clearly not primarily genetic, as twin studies suggest otherwise.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    I think in clinical and scientific contexts the term "gender dysphoria" is used, but the trans community would probably prefer trans be used as an adjective and not a noun, someone is transgender, but not "a transgender", if that makes sense.

    also, the twin studies show gender identity is genetic and heritable:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence

    The significant percentage of identical twin pairs in which both twins are trans and the virtual absence of dizygotic twins (raised in the same family at the same time) in which both were trans would provide evidence that transgender identity is significantly influenced by genetics if both sets were raised in different families.

    In 2018 a review of family and twin studies found that there was "significant and consistent evidence" for gender identity being genetically heritable.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    gender dysphoria is not what I'm talking about, since not all transgender people have dysphoria.

    To be clear -- "transgender" the noun is not referring to a person ("that person is a transgender"* -- proscribed) but rather as a substitute for "transgenderism"* (proscribed). Personally, using "transgender" seems linguistically strange to me and it just reminds me of Trump saying "transgender for everybody" but if it's what people prefer then who am I to judge.

    Anyway -- yes, I agree that it seems very probable that there are strong genetic components to transgender, but it's also clearly not purely genetic, given there are identical twins where one is cis and the other not.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    gender dysphoria is not what I'm talking about, since not all transgender people have dysphoria

    right, I get that, but most research has not treated being trans outside the context of gender dysphoria, so when talking about studies or the clinical and scientific context usually non-binary and non-dysphoric trans folks are left out of the picture.

    It is good to be expansive in our concept of being trans for social justice reasons, and to not gatekeep for harm reduction reasons, but since scientists and clinicians are gatekeepers, what we can say about their findings are limited to the criteria they use. It is usually more accurate to say "a study found X or Y about people with gender dysphoria", even though it's not uncommon for that to be presented as "a study found X or Y about trans people" in more mainstream contexts.

    To be clear -- "transgender" the noun is not referring to a person ("that person is a transgender"* -- proscribed) but rather as a substitute for "transgenderism"* (proscribed).

    I have never seen this usage, and like you I'm skeptical that is right. I could see "being transgender" as a substitute for "transgenderism", but not just "transgender".

    but it's also clearly not purely genetic, given there are identical twins where one is cis and the other not.

    The presence of identical twins where one is cis and one is trans is not proof that gender identity is not genetic - there are many reasons people do not transition or acknowledge their gender identity, such as the strong social pressure to not be trans. There can also be epigenetic differences so while identical twins may share a genome, how it is expressed differs based on a variety of conditions that alter epigenetics, such as stress or illness.

    We see the same with sexual orientation by the way.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Granted, it's not proof, but I find it very hard to believe that all cases of identical twins with apparently differing gender identities is explained by one of the twins simply electing not to transition while the other does. This is particularly hard to believe given that the twins grow up in similar environments, so if one is in a transition-hostile environment the other likely is as well. I think we should believe people when they insist they are not transgender, especially if they are part of a study where their identical twin is comfortable being open about it. If this were a rare occurrence, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but it is not rare at all.

    "transgender"

    One instance where I have seen "transgender" used this way is from the same article where I learned about the link between transgender, skin elasticity, and hyperflexibility:

    it’s at least possible that EDS and transgender are linked

    It's no typo; other articles by this same author use the same grammar. I have also for sure seen this used on other sites, including by trans authors, but in 5 minutes of searching I can't find those instances. "Being transgender" does seem grammatically fitting to me, but it doesn't always make sense to use "being transgender" as a substitute for "transgenderism"*/"transgender." Anyway we more or less agree here and I have little interest in semantics.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    But it easy, we just make it complicated with social bullshit and attention craving. The fact that no one is exactly set to be perfect copies, doesnt mean anything. The fact that outliers exist, doesnt mean anything. You ask the owner of a dog if its a boy or a girl, they will tell you. And you wanna know how they know? They looked between its legs. It really is, that easy.

    The kind of logic being pushed today, is basically saying that you cant class human beings as a bipedal species because 200 per million people are born with no legs. Which is dumb as fuck.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I think things get taken too far in some contexts, but the underlying sensitivity is when you are talking to a person who considers themselves an outlier. Like telling someone with no legs that they don't meet the definition of human and ADA is an abomination that should be repealed. Or telling someone diagnosed with conversion disorder that they can't receive any physical accommodations, and can't have any medical consults to check if their symptoms might have a different cause. I hope we can agree those would be insensitive positions to take.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Why would I say someone with no legs wasnt human? If anything, that would be your stance. No? Im not the one excluding outliers, you all are. And then your using 0.018% of the population to justify it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I am confused. I thought the thread was about gender, and the reference to "social bullshit" and the statement "that outliers exist, doesnt mean anything" were statements in support of excluding transgender people from society. The 0.018% stat (rate of intersex if defined narrowly) is clearly a reference to sex, not gender. So now I am just lost.

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  • Now you know how everyone else feels. It used to be focused on gender. But theres been a pivot to sex. Why? I dont know. It seems like people all of sudden want "trans" be a dirty word, and by people, I dont mean MAGA chuds who hate anything that its them.

    ‘I am biologically female.’ was said by Beth Upton, during a court case into whether or not she received abuse from a Nurse. Followed by: 'the terms biological male and female had no defined and agreed meaning in science' and ‘Biological sex is a nebulous term and it doesn’t really mean anything, because nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex because pretty much every human I’m aware of is at least in part biological and many of them have a sex characteristic.’

    Similar things are popping up all over social media. I dont care what anyone says they are. Trans, non binary, whatever. They can all live their lives as they see fit. Its this push to justify it with outliers thats annoying. And it just takes us right back to the arguments over attack helicopters, which I thought were long behind us.

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  • [–] 61 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Honestly, people would probably object more to advanced math than advanced biology if they were exposed as much to it. Or basic math. Or elementary math...

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  • [+] [S] 47 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    So true and it's a great to remind them of that sort of thing.

    You know, you'd think all of the people who say it's purely down to genetics would be natural allies with, you know, molecular biologists (applied genetics). They'd be all like "it's a Y chromosome or nothing" and the biologists would be all like "yeah chromosomes!" because we fucking love chromosomes but no. In fact, it's noticeably absent when you start to think about it.

    I wonder why that might be?

    The short answer is "because it's infinitely more complicated than that."

    Just because you carry the genetic code for anything at all, it doesn't mean you'll express it. The default setting for our DNA is off. So, if something isn't telling it to transcribe, it won't do it. A whole load of reasons could cause that, even before we get to mutations and partial expression or chimeras etc.

    Anyway, what i mean is yeah, this meme!

    Edit: also, don't beleive the AI. Early fetuses are female, until the Y is activated. You could have an inactivated Y and the fetus could be a woman capable of having children. The default setting is female, not intersex. It could be either but unless a specific event happens, it will always be female. It's a subtle but important difference. This means that all fetuses are female and then turn into a male.

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