Is it really necessary to send humans to those places just to get the knock-on benefits? Couldn't we do those things directly, without going there?

It seems to me that, today, those who have the money to spend on these endeavors would only do so if there were perceived short-term benefits to themselves. That means they plan to exploit the resources, or increase their own power somehow.

I know the good engineers that make this happen are doing it for the challenge and in the pursuit of knowledge, and I know that's why we poors support it, but that doesn't "pay the bills." What is the motivation behind the money? Why are they really doing this?

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[–] 36 points 1 month ago (5 children)

So I can't speak to the actual motivation for the moon, but can for one reason for at-least-temporary human habitation there. Solar system exploration (and, inevitably resource extraction.

When you launch rockets from Earth, a vast majority of the fuel you start with is burnt off just getting to orbit, out of the deepest part of our gravity well. If you want to go anywhere else in our solar system, you're severely limited to what's left. The moon's gravity is low enough that it could work as a refuelling station. Provided we find enough water there and set up solar hydrolysis stations there and build the infrastructure to get it up to orbiting ships. All that will take people to set up, and possibly to manage long term.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Couldn't we just have an orbiting refueling station though? Seems to me like it would be even more efficient.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago*

    The perfect solution would be an orbital station with a space elevator. An 36'000 km elevator is kinda difficult to build and maintain safely though. Without cheaply carrying resources up there, its utility is limited (sure can slowly put things up there, but it's very inefficient).

    What Moon has going on is Helium-3, which can be an amazing energy source by itself.

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  • [+] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago

    The moon, uniquely, has no atmosphere and no magnetic field, meaning the solar wind may have deposited large quantities of Helium-3 in the lunar dust over millions or billions of years. Helium-3 is possibly a viable fuel for fusion energy production at an industrial scale. Current reactors fust Hydrogen-2 with Hydrogen-3. Hydrogen-2 is abundant but Hydrogen-3 is exceedingly rare. If I remember correctly, there are only on the order of 10 kilograms of it currently available on Earth. Helium-3 is possibly a good substitute for Hydrogen-3 in fusion reactions.

    Fusion reactions already produce net positive energy in laboratory settings, although it will be some time before this scientific net positive can be turned into an engineering net positive, and even more time still until it becomes an economic net positive.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    is there any evidence for water on the moon?

    Yes. We know there's water there and how much accessible water is there.

    And it's plenty for some exploratory uses, but not enough to make an economy extracting fuel from there. So yeah, that entire thing is bullshit, while the idea of using the water there in a way that doesn't go away may or may not be.

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    [–] 113 points 1 month ago (28 children)

    In the case of musk and his billionaire friends, they just want to escape the consequences of their actions and become above the law. Basically they want to be a king, with no laws restraining them.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I just wished they got the fuck on with it and left earth already, so we can turn off their radio coms and start fixing things

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  • [–] 81 points 1 month ago* (22 children)

    It's also a good distraction, doubt they actually think people will live on the moon or Mars

    Someone else pointed out that you could set off every nuke that has ever existed and the earth would still be more hospitable than mars

    To repeat myself a little, it's all a distraction from making things better here, like the bezoes quote about getting 10,000 Einsteins in the future by expanding in the solar system, and it's like dude, you might have 100 Einsteins pissing in bottles in your warehouse right now but they can't afford school or groceries or rent

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I read that as getting 10,000 Epsteins by expanding in the solar system ...

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago

    Or in the words of Stephen Jay Gould,

    "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops."

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The Moon and Mars are not a distraction. It's been a Nasa goal for a long time to go to Mars. Politics has stopped us from doing it for a very long time. We're lucky we got to put probes around it and rovers on the ground.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    getting 10,000 Einsteins in the future by expanding in the solar system

    This is incredibly random but I’ve been wondering lately what might happen if we colonized a place where comparatively speaking time moves much faster than on Earth.

    In theory you could bring back years of advancement in a shorter timespan, but this is obviously just a pipe dream.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

    Interstellar is just a movie, mate. There is no such planet, time passes at the same rate everywhere - ie the caesium standard.

    Time dilation is a thing, but as far as I'm aware it's not possible to travel someplace, pass any greater amount of time, and then return as though less time had passed - that's time travel. It's theoretically impossible, at least with current technology and understanding of relativity. Great movie though.

    Edit: downvote if you don't understand that time dilation isn't magic, and you can't travel back through time.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    As far as we know, traveling through time backwards is impossible.

    Traveling through time forwards is very much possible though - in fact we are doing exactly that right now!

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I explicitly said 'return back as though less time had passed' - i.e. backwards time travel - was theoretically impossible.

    I never claimed travel forward though time was not.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    It's not about returning back in time - it's just one place would travel forward slower than another place.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    You're telling me what I was talking about? Returning back in time is exactly the comment I was responding to.

    This is incredibly random but I’ve been wondering lately what might happen if we colonized a place where comparatively speaking time moves much faster than on Earth.

    In theory you could bring back years of advancement in a shorter timespan, but this is obviously just a pipe dream.

    This goal is impossible for the reasons I explained.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You need to work on reading comprehension.

    The concept being brought up is that we could compress years or centuries of research into a small time frame and 'bring it back' to our world, not go back in time. Obviously nonsense, but not actually physically impossible.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Yep how do you bring back the advancement chief?

    Travel? Cool, by the time it arrives, the exact same amount of time will have passed locally as remote. The 100 years of advancement will arrive after your local advancement + travel time. So it will already be out of date. Useless.

    You'd have to use faster than light travel, or communication - eg by quantum entanglement over a distance ten million orders of magnitude greater than we've ever witnessed it. Woah, did someone say that this is fundamentally impossible with our current understanding and technology? Yes, they did. Reading is fun.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I didn’t get the idea from the movie, I’m talking about how time passes differently depending on the pull of gravity; and that’s why I kind of alluded to this being theoretical at best. I don’t actually think it’s feasible to find an enormous planet just to have time pass more quickly.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    The problem is that your return to Earth would slowly move you back down the dilation losing the gains.

    You can take two routes to a restaurant. One is very short but curvy and has a slow speed limit. The other is a really long straight shot with high speed. You can think of your scenario as such a case where even though the straight path is longer, it takes the same "time" to get to the restaurant.

    You would be taking the faster, longer route while Earth takes the windy slow route but as you arrived back you would still be in sync.

    Edit to add: Spacetime is a single thing which is why the above behavior the case.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yep, and as I said, the return trip with all the rapidly evolved super-geniuses would be the impossible part of the plan.

    You can't travel someplace else - experience say 100 years, and then travel back to your place of departure and have had only 20 years passed. That's fundamentally impossible.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (24 children)

    NASA spending has historically created more in return than is spent. It's somewhat expensive (essentially a rounding error next to military spending though), but the science done gives a good return on investment. This isn't just like on moon rocks or whatever, but developing technology that the missions need. Things like thermally reflective lightweight fabric, or a ton of other things. The science done on the Moon is worth a lot on its own, but it's also not the only thing we're getting out of it.

    However, what are billionaires getting out of it? Hopefully it's just the opportunity to profit from the contracts and not something more nefarious. We all know it is though eventually.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    That's just funding research with extra steps.

    Science on the aggregate gives excellent return on investment. Unfortunately politicians want an extravagant excuse for funding it, but it would be much more efficient not to do the gimmicks, just do the science and not allow public sentiment to dictate what's viable.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    it would be much more efficient not to do the gimmicks, just do the science and not allow public sentiment to dictate what's viable.

    Probably, but sometimes having to meet real world challenges leads you down pathways that wouldn't otherwise have been considered.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    Sure. Let those goals be useful and reachable, not some narcissist's fantasy about colonizing a dead planet.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    Musk aside, colonizing Mars is absolutely achievable, and could be very useful. Having one point where humans exist is limiting, and creates a potential for one point of failure. Spreading out gives us many more opportunities for doing interesting things, and it also prevents Earth being wiped out (probably by us, but potentially something else) meaning the end of humanity.

    I think you're letting your hatred of billionaires make you hate everything they're associated with, which isn't correct or good. Make an actual argument for it being bad, not just saying billionaires support it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (8 children)

    There are about a hundred things that are more readily achiveable and useful than going to Mars or even the Moon. We have a climate crisis here on Earth, we're facing severe challenges in agriculture, and almost a billion people live in abject poverty.

    On that last point: what do you think unlocks more scientific potential - funneling trillions into research for a colony on the Moon, or making sure hundreds of millions of children get food, water, medicine and an education? My bet is on the latter, by a loooooooong fucking margin. You've got your Mozarts and Einsteins wasting away in squalor, and that's just a bad use of our potential. Morality doesn't even have to enter the equation.

    I'm not hung up on the disgusting billionaires. They're not the only narcissists around.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    There are about a hundred things that are more readily achiveable and useful than going to Mars or even the Moon.

    Luckily we're doing billions of other things. We aren't doing Luna/Mars missions and nothing else.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    That's a false dichotomy. We could very easily as a species support a space colony AND provide for the welfare of everybody if we collectively wanted to. One does not preclude the other, nor make it any more difficult to accomplish.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Start. By. Feeding. Children.

    Then you can have as many space colonies as you want.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    You seem to think I'm in charge of the world budget or something.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Of course not. But it's people like you on the aggregate that prop up con men, and it does directly compete with effective measures to fix our own planet.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    But it's people like you on the aggregate that prop up con men,

    Fuck off. You and Elon both. You're just making assumptions about me now.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Right, you don't prop up con men, just their ideas.

    There is no merit to going to Mars other than to distract people from real issues. I have no doubt that at some point, if humanity survives the upcoming centuries, we will put a research outpost on Mars. I do however very much doubt that we'd build a large, thriving colony there even millennia in the future, for the same reason that we don't go building cities on the bottom of the ocean, in the middle of the desert or at the peak of mountains. There's just no reason to do so.

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  • There is no merit to going to Mars

    That's your personal very subjective opinion, which many other comments in here have already addressed, so I'm not going to bother.

    in the middle of the desert or at the peak of mountains.

    Looks at Las Vegas, La Paz, and so many others.

    Lol.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    not some narcissist's fantasy about colonizing a dead planet.

    Fuck Elon. Humanity's dream of colonising space existed long before he was even conceived.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (7 children)

    I don't think we need to gatekeep funding research. You shouldn't have to do it with no goal in mind for it to be good. The fact of the matter is its funding research and making people excited to fund research. That's a huge win.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    I didn't say we can't have goals. I just don't think that going to Mars is a good goal, and I think that the argument that we need a stupid goal to achieve good science is, well, stupid.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Why do you think it's not a good goal?

    Do you think research into the origins of the universe is good (regardless of space technology)? What about the origins of life? what about the origins of Earth, life on Earth, and Humanity?

    Do you think it's good to increase our understanding and capability of supporting life on other planets?

    Do you think it'd be a good idea to spread Humanity to multiple places (everyone living in one city or spread out, or everyone on one planet or spread out, are the same circumstances but a different scale)?

    Do you think it's a good idea to increase our capabilities to deal with potential asteroid threats?

    If you answered yes to any of these, Mars is a fine goal, or Luna. This isn't even mentioning stuff like farming technologies without soil that would be needed on Mars/Luna but also very useful on Earth. Also things like electricity generation (solar, wind, nuclear, and others we may not even consider yet) that need to be thought about in different ways that will inevitably lead to advancements.

    Constraint is the mother of creativity, or however that saying goes. Creating problems to solve can frequently create solutions that just looking blindly without constraints would never find. Going to another body is a great way to impose these restraints.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    The Moon and Mars are not interchangeable. They're vastly different. The Moon is in Earth's orbit. That's why we went to the Moon in 1959 and haven't even tried to go to Mars in 2026.

    All interesting research can be done on Earth, the Moon or space telescopes. Mars is not interesting except for taking samples, and robots can do that.

    Mars does not help with developing farming technologies without soil. You're thinking of low-gravity environments I take it?

    You're describing Mars being a barren wasteland as a good challenge to try to solve. Fuck that. Start by solving the challenges we have on Earth. Show me you can fix a broken arm before insisting that you're going to do brain surgery. Hence why you should terraform the Sahara before talking about building a civilization on a dusty hellscape that is a six month journey away from everything we need to live.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    The Moon and Mars are not interchangeable. They're vastly different. The Moon is in Earth's orbit. That's why we went to the Moon in 1959 and haven't even tried to go to Mars in 2026.

    All interesting research can be done on Earth, the Moon or space telescopes. Mars is not interesting except for taking samples, and robots can do that.

    Obviously Luna and Mars aren't interchangeable! They're very different. However, you both agree they're different, but also think there's nothing that can't be done exclusively there? What?

    Mars does not help with developing farming technologies without soil. You're thinking of low-gravity environments I take it?

    No. I mean growing food without soil. There is no soil on Mars. We either need to make it (which is useful to learn how), or we need to do without, such as with aquaponics and aeroponics. These all would still help life on Earth too (they already do).

    You're describing Mars being a barren wasteland as a good challenge to try to solve. Fuck that. Start by solving the challenges we have on Earth. Show me you can fix a broken arm before insisting that you're going to do brain surgery. Hence why you should terraform the Sahara before talking about building a civilization on a dusty hellscape that is a six month journey away from everything we need to live.

    Why can't we do both? I hate the idea we have to only do one thing. That's not how this works. Developing technology to live on Luna and Mars would help us tackle the issues on Earth. It also doesn't exclude focusing on Earth. We are currently terraforming the Sahara. Since we are working on that, do you agree we are now fine to work on other things?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    You are severely underestimating the effort that it takes to send people to Mars, unless you want them to expire there quickly. So yes, sending people to Mars really does compete with other efforts. Therefore we have to weigh the utility of such an undertaking against its benefits. It is true that sometimes "crazy" projects like this does reveal findings that you weren't actively looking for. But that is the best argument for this crazy idea - that maybe it will turn up something unexpectedly cool! And I don't see why we would divert a significant amount of resources to something like that when we have so many other fields that desperately need attention, where we know that we will find good and useful stuff without endangering the lives of people.

    You mentioned soil research as one avenue for why going to Mars might help. Why do we need Mars to practice growing food without soil? What is it about Mars that provides a significant advantage for that type of research? None, you say? Then I say, let's do it on Earth or in orbit.

    I am also confused as why you keep referring to Earth's moon as "Luna". In my experience that's mostly practiced when we're comparing solar systems to each other, and in that context the Earth would be named "Tellus". Although I think it's rare to call them anything except "Earth" and "the Moon" in practice, at least it was when I did my physics degree.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    I'm done with this conversation, but I'll address this:

    I am also confused as why you keep referring to Earth's moon as "Luna"...

    Luna is the name of Earth's moon. Have you heard of the term lunatic? That term came from people worshiping Earth's moon, Luna. I don't know why some people don't know its name. The Moon is not a name. Moon is a description. Luna is the name.

    Earth is named Earth. It's not "The Planet" which would be the equivalent name as The Moon. Earth is a name. Terra, Tellus, Gaia are all also names for it. Mars is the name of the fourth planet from the sun. The sun is named Sol, which is why solar system means our star system. There are other star systems, but only one solar system. You can't compare solar systems to each other because there aren't any other solar systems. There's only the one.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    There is enough material wealth in the asteroid belt to create a sustainable post-scarcity civilization. We could move out, and turn this little blue-green planet into a fucking nature preserve.

    Settlements on multiple worlds within the solar system offer protection against risks that might otherwise end with the extinction of Homo Sapiens.

    For the ultra rich - moving off world to escape the collapse of the biosphere is ridiculous.

    Easier to "settle" the deserts of Utah of the Australian Outback than Mars - plenty of O2 and no worries about ambient radiation, but a very similar environment...

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  • [–] 68 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    The moon is a great starting point to explore the rest of the solar system, doubly so if we found water on it.

    I’ll quote JFK (probably more Ted Sorensen) on this one « we don’t do this things because they are easy but because they are hard […] »

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  • [–] 30 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    And to provide a material reason to explore the solar system, if we can mine the asteroid belt, resource scarcity will be a thing of the past. A single 1-mile diameter asteroid can contain $20 trillion in metals.

    This is why the billionaires are staging their own space race. Whoever can mine the asteroid belt first owns the world. It’s also why privatizing space exploration is such a terrible idea and why we must have a global socialist revolution before anyone reaches the belt.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    Another reason privatization would be a disaster: there's very little difference between hauling an asteroid back to Earth's orbit and hauling one to collide with the planet. The latter is actually much easier due to not needing to slow down at the end.

    I wonder how many decades or centuries it'll take before the first megalomaniac demands a ransom to not drop a giant rock on Earth or another colony.

    Once intrasolar travel becomes common, kinetic kill vehicles will be an omnipresent threat. Asteroid mining operations will need to have the kind of strict licensing and mandated observation that nuclear weapon decommissioning sites have today.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Hopefully if were at the point of being able to haul massive asteroids back to earth, we also have the technology to intercept it and move it, or destroy it, and we have that capability ready on demand.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Hopefully, but we're not a very forward-thinking species. More likely we'd only give haulers just enough fuel to make gravity-assisted trips (which are only possible when orbits match up optimally) because it's cheaper that way, making on-demand interception unlikely.

    Destruction doesn't always work either. If it's struck close to Earth most of the fragments will still hit, and even if they're too small to survive reentry they will still dump tons of heat energy into the atmosphere.

    Physics is a harsh mistress.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I wonder how much heat energy fragments would actually dump and if it would be statistically significant. Somebody do the math!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    I couldn't find any hard values, but Wikipedia does have a chart displaying the energy asteroids of various sizes would release if they exploded before hitting the ground, as well as the total kinetic energy they'd have upon hitting atmosphere. All that energy would still have to go somewhere even if it's fragmented.

    I also found that a single 50 meter fragment is enough to destroy an entire city and surrounding metropolitan area, so even if the heat isn't an issue you'd still have to somehow ensure zero large fragments survive interception.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Oh no I don't think we would. Once an asteroid is earth bound and past its apoapsis there is very little you can do (even with near infinite propulsion) to make it not collide with the earth.

    Destroying it turns one big problem into a billion small problems with the same velocity and trajectory, which is also a no win scenario.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago*

    That’s a huge reason I believe, hope, that we will never do that. A more efficient and less catastrophic approach is to do some level of refining out at the source and only send back together refined, pure minerals.

    …. Although I realize the irony of advocating for sending, say a rod of pure tungsten, back to earth

    And more realistically, I have a hard time believing that will ever be cheaper to bring to earth than to mine locally. While there maybe a handful of elements worth it, more realistically you are mining for use in space

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    doesnt seem like it was thier goal, its mostly space tourism.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    Space tourism is something that can happen now for the ultra-rich, and would be an interesting medium term goal to make that reachable by more people. If we pursued that, we could see yearly progress

    Asteroid mining is still far in the future, and we need to take our first baby steps of getting established in space

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    I mean, space tourism is much easier than astroid mining but much of the tech needed for space tourism will also be needed for astroid mining. It's literally a technological leap requiring resources at the scale of the entirety of humanity just to make space tourism viable, so they go with the loffty but achievable goal before the goal that's currently complete sci-fi

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    The idealistic answer: Science! Lots of things to learn by establishing humanity's first extraterrestrial presence on our closest celestial neighbor.

    The realistic answer: Capitalism. Lots of money to be made in mining the moon.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    There really isn't that much money to be made mining the moon, though. Not considering how much it would cost to get a mining operation there.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    The startup costs would be immense, but the cost of getting that material home wouldn't be as much as you might think given the lower gravity on the moon. The moon's gravity is low enough you can basically shove all of that material into a rail gun fired at about the right orbit with earth, have it escape the moon's gravity and get captured by the earths gravity (this sounds dangerous until you remember how much energy is needed to negate the gravity of both the moon and the earth, plus the Earth's atmosphere. Besides, it works in Kerbal space program!) , then you just need enough delta-v on board for menouvers and to deorbit your freighters. Basically imagine throwing shipping crates of ores in the general direction of earth which get caught by the Earth's gravity then orbit and drop down at a designated site, and that's the promise of moon mining!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Mining the moon to send materials to Earth would not be economical in the slightest because the Moon has nothing Earth doesn't. Sure, space launches from the Moon would be way easier and cheaper than from Earth (once you make the massive investment of time and money to build the space launch facilities on the Moon). But if you're talking about shipping materials to Earth from the Moon, either you need to send your freighters back from Earth to the Moon (expensive), or you make the freighters on the Moon and disassemble them on Earth, counting them as part of the haul. All that for iron, silicon, aluminum, magnesium, and titanium, stuff we can get on Earth easily enough.

    The only possible economic argument for Moon mining is for a self-sustaining lunar settlement able to source space launch materials locally instead of getting them from an expensive rocket from Earth. That way, you can use the Moon as a jumping-off point to the rest of the solar system and beyond. That's a great idea for space exploration in the long term for sure. But it's a very long term plan and won't be economically feasible for a century at least.

    One could make the argument that mining Earth is contributing to planetary pollution and generally fucking up our ecosystem. That's true for sure. I'm pretty sure implementing clean mining practices would be more economical than the cost of lunar mining (and that's not even accounting for the pollution caused by the freighters' reentry).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Mining on the moon leads to mining asteroids.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Asteroids are not a great source of minerals. They are far less dense than planets and moons, and most of what they are made of isn't super rare or valuable.

    In the extremely long term, off-earth mining will probably be a good idea. But for the next 100 years or so at least, it'll be way cheaper to mine on Earth.

    Most hojillionaires want to do stuff in space so they can avoid government oversight and regulation.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    Epstein planet

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I'd separate this into two different things - what is good for humanity and what is good for billionaires like Musk.

    For humanity, venturing out into the solar system will advance science, and also help drive technological advancement which does have benefits for society as a whole. The space race in the 20th century did advance technology, and much of the modern technology we take for granted has routes in the space race.

    But also humanity needs to move away from our current capitalistic system and that is very much driven by scarcity. The resource wealth in the solar system is mind bogglingly vast and if we can tap into even a portion of it, it could allow us to change how we as a species live. It would initially be driven by capitalism for sure, but when you have effectively infinite resources for a civilization, that changes everything we do.

    Also for the long term survival of our species we need to be looking outwards. Earth is vulnerable - one asteroid strike and out species could be wiped out. Even if only a small number of people were to head out into the stars, it would help guarantee a long term future and resilience for our species.

    I think one big mistake people make is that what happens on earth is a zero-sum game: i.e. for some to win, it must be at the cost of others. That is wrong and is a result of our terribly broken economic system. But we can both colonize the moon and mars AND fix the problems on Earth. And it may do good for our species to look up to the stars and have a bigger shared goal than just existing on this rock and acquiring wealth.

    In terms of why the moon & mars. The moon is essential as a staging post for future expansion, as it's very expensive resource and energy wise to launch from Earths gravity well, but much cheaper to build at the moon and launce from there without the added step & complexity in design for launching off Earths surface. Mars meanwhile is the most viable candidate at present for a self sustaining colony long term (with a couple of moons of Jupiter and Saturn other options, and possibly venus as a long stretch).

    Meanwhile, Musk is a deranged billionaire idiot. He is nothing more than a investor gambler; other people are doing the hard work making things happen while he is a public face of various companies. He really is peripheral to this, even if he does push the topic into the public consciousness. Don't conflate the idea of expanding into the solar system with that idiot. The idea precedes him and will run long beyond his life and any influence he has. He is just a narcissistic loud mouth with money.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    The idea precedes him and will run long beyond his life and any influence he has. He is just a narcissistic loud mouth with money.

    200 years from now the average school history book will have a single photo of a Falcon-9 booster landing on earth and a couple of sentencds doscroving it as the very first demonstration of reusable rocket boosters and that will be all he amounts to in the long run. Space nerds might know his name in the same way that railway nerds know of Robert Stephenson, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, Cornelius Vanderbilt, and other railroad barrons of the 19th century, but railway nerds also remember these railroad barons of the 19th century as the robber barons they were. Honestly, it's not the worst fate that the relentless passage of time can give to a person

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Staging area for interplanetary exploration. It takes a lot of energy to leave the earth, making the rest of the journey to Mars or Jupiter quite difficult. It doesn't take nearly as much energy to launch from the moon though.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    The practical universe ends where the solar wind meets the interstellar medium. Baring scifi plot contrivance extra-luminality, this is it for us.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    70 years ago people said we'd never go to the moon. 100 years ago people said we'd never fly across the Atlantic. 600 years ago people said we'd never circumnavigate the globe. 1,000 years ago we couldn't travel to China. 10,000 years ago we'd never see past that far mountain.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Explore. Who cares? Where's your wanderlust?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    It sort of dies out before the first 1.58^-5^ of a lightyear. But be my guest, consign your offspring's offspring's offspring to the consequences of your wanderlust.

    Moreover, there's a humongous range of possible radiations, temperatures, elemental combinations, gravitys, pressures. The range necessary to keep a human alive is a one dimensional sliver on the pie chart.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    lot of big 'ifs' involved: re: the moon specifically -

    if we can find water, we can make fuel and oxygen, instead of lifting both out of earth's gravity well. this could unlock a gigantic generation of probe exploration for much cheaper launch costs. and perhaps even human habitation, and later, human travel to mars etc.

    mars - I don't see any good reasons to rush humans to mars, it would be a stunt at best. the distances involved and the amount of resources they'd have to schlep are daunting with current technologies.

    so maybe a reason to start robotic exploration of the moon, specifically lunar lava tubes for potential habitation and shaded craters where water ice might be recoverable.

    none of it should take our priority off of stopping climate collapse tho. let's keep the only space ship we've got habitable first.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I don't see any good reasons to rush humans to mars..

    More to the point, no human has yet left the safety of earth's magnetic field. The moon is well inside it and that is why the astronauts could go there, and come back and not end up riddled with cancer.

    Mars has no magnetic field so going there and coming back will be a trip that likely incurs a shortened lifespan.

    Will need to sort the diseases that come of solar radiation exposure first.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago*

    yeah the cosmic radiation on the trip is gonna be.... rough.

    can be ameliorated with shielding, and if you're going to mars you're gonna wanna cart along a shitton of water (can be used for fuel or oxygen or drinking) so that may work out....

    decreasing the transit time is critical, so constant thrust engines like NERVA can cut the risk down by making the trip faster...

    but the why remains most for me: why do we feel putting humans on mars is worth it? the risks are manifold:

    contaminating mars with more earth stuff, and now with human gut biome (astronauts will poop, and they ain't bringing it all home)

    one nasty solar flare and you run the risk of ending the mission right there - shielding be damned, a nasty one could cook all kinds of important tech.

    the cost is astronomical (badum-tss) and the return - ? fuzzy at the very best. we're NEVER going to terraform mars in the next couple hundred years, and terrestrial life would need all the perchlorates scrubbed from everything, all for what - maybe a week running around taking pictures and digging around in soils already sampled by rovers that are still running? and your point it's got no magnetosphere so you'd live in a lava tube? pfft... why? we can live in lava tubes on the moon lol.

    I just don't see any why that justifies it.

    Moon has utility, mars is a waste of time and resources imho.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    Ask investors for more money

    Next question

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