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[–] 100 points 4 months ago (34 children)

Is there any actual proof of valve taking actions to limit competition or are they just popular because they have a good business model?

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago (18 children)

    They don't limit competition, but it's a more open question whether they are engaging in a form of price fixing.

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  • [+] 44 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with you that anything using Steam's services should be subject to their terms. I don't think a lot of people are arguing to the contrary about that. I have heard others accuse, though I don't know with how much basis, that they apply the same control to games not using their infra.

    The only example ever floated of them doing this with out steam keys or them being the distribution source was a single email from steam support to a developer. That has been proven over and over to have been a miscommunication and not actually an enforced policy.

    If this is true, I definitely agree that they have done nothing wrong. Problem is with the many conflicting stories online and lack of solid info.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 4 months ago

    If this is true, I definitely agree that they have done nothing wrong. Problem is with the many conflicting stories online and lack of solid info.

    Which will hopefully come to light through discovery or a case.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    Seems to me the only fixing they're doing is fixing the prices lower than other clients.

    Rather than what you usually hear with price fixing, where prices go up. Like Amazon with Levi jeans.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago* (13 children)

    Well, no, it's the opposite. The accusation goes that Steam strong-arms people into keeping prices on Steam the lowest (or tied for lowest) available if they're selling the same game on another storefront. For example, Ubisoft cannot sell a game on their own platform for cheaper than they will also sell it on Steam. This is not good for consumers.

    Again, allegedly.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Of all the accusations against Steam, I'm most amenable to that one. I think devs should be able to sell on their personal storefronts for cheaper, if they're going to the effort of setting up a storefront at all.

    Selling on GOG or Epic for less does feel some type of way too, but I can't say I'd block devs from doing that either.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I think that only applies to selling Steam keys on other platforms. They're free to price the games however they want, but they can't sell keys cheaper somewhere else.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    That's basically the crux of the accusations. Valve says it's only for steam keys, other devs say they've been told not to sell their game for less elsewhere, even if they don't include a steam key. I guess we'll see as the case continues.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 4 months ago

    If it were only about Steam keys, I think I would agree with Steam. Selling Steam keys elsewhere is still making full use of Steam to fulfill distribution of their game.

    It'd probably just lead to Steam not allowing devs to get free keys of their games. You lock into Steam and, if you want a Steam version of the game, you have to buy one.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    That is what everyone takes wrong about the case. Two points I want to mention

    • allegedly, they force other storefronts to match the price on steam or their storefront regardless of what type of key it is (Valve claims it is only for Steam keys)

    • Nobody stops Ubisoft or EGS or whatever to sell their games on their storefront. OR even 3rd party publishers can avoid selling on Steam (look up EGS and Borderlands 4/Metro Exodus case). Literally nobody says they should sell on Steam.

    What annoys me that everyone took "they force them even with own keys to match the price" as a factual truth just because of EGS, Ubi and some other company claimed so. The case is not closed yet. There is no verdict. Nothing is ruled out. And somehow tons of people are angry at Valve?!

    Who do we trust more out of the box? Valve or EGS/Ubi? Sharpen your pitchforks only after the fact are known, people...

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    But wouldn't that be malicious from the dev side? "Hey, don't bother with Steam because it's more expensive. Come buy it here instead". Just don't sell on Steam if it's an issue, but we all know they want to piggyback on the exposure/trust associated with Steam.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 4 months ago

    I'm seeing it as "pay the Steam price for Steam integrations like achievements, if you care about that" and "pay the cheaper price for just the game." People could "abuse" it for free marketing but I don't think most people would do that.

    And you just gotta eat those costs; sorta like how there will be some level of public aid fraud, but that doesn't mean you cancel food stamps.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    How is competition that benefits consumers in the form of lower prices “malicious”?

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    It's not going to result in lower prices for consumers. It's going to result in higher prices on Steam.

    It's also going to fragment the game market on PC. That may or may not be a good thing depending on who you ask, but personally, I like not having to hunt around for the best store to purchase my game in. I go to Steam and I know I'm not getting completely shafted. This is essentially going to allow scummy corps like Ubisoft and EA to implement a "Steam tax" because I don't want to use their shitty, bloated, spyware riddled miserable excuse for a storefront.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The thing is that this is in Steam's TOS when it comes to steam keys. You can sell steam keys but not at a lower price than on Steam. Which is extremely fair -- selling a steam key still means you're using Steam's infrastructure, you don't have to manage the downloads & updates. It does not apply in a situation where you manage your own store with its own infrastructure

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    But that's the crux. The accusation is that Steam has an unwritten policy that applies to non steam key sales, and uses their near monopoly to enforce it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Yes here: https://www.wolfire.com/blog/2021/05/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action/

    They have the proof in the claim, but I don’t know if it’s public yet.

    I agree that steam should enforce STEAM CODE sales to be the same price, but this is just a download of the game. I hope steam just fucked yo here and misunderstood; otherwise, it’s completely anticompetitive and is illegal based on the contract the developer signed from valve.

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, but all the valve fanboys will argue anyone who mentions the multiple price fixing lawsuits (which are not related to using steam key sellers, but they'll endlessly post that TOS clause anyway) against Valve into oblivion.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    A pending lawsuit is a merely a claim, not a proven fact or hard evidence. Swamping an entity with lawsuits doesn't mean the defendent is guilty, because you can sue for anything.

    We've already seen this happen with Monsanto, Disney, Nintendo, etc. where they go after smaller entities by smothering them in lawsuits to drain their coffers. It doesn't matter if some lawsuits get thrown out or whether they're valid, they just need to squash the competition.

    And Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, Sony, Epic, Ubisoft, EA, etc. all have financial reason to see Valve fall. Linux adoption is a threat to Microsoft and Apple, the PC market is a threat to console manufacturers, and having a pro-consumer store as the dominant player in the market limits what anti-consumer practices other storefronts can do.

    Don't just blindly trust claims and speculation, especially when there's a lot of finilancial incentive to lie. Wait for lawsuits to actually get resolved.

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  • [+] -6 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    I know from experience valve coerces developers into participating in their sale events, basically saying there game won't get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.

    Which considering they already take a massive 30% cut of developers earnings, is very scummy. Lots of indie Devs that already struggle to make money and already sell their games for super cheap are basically forced to cut their profits even further just to get some visibility on the platform.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    basically saying there game won't get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.

    I'm very skeptical of that. The Factorio devs famously refuse to ever put the game on sale, and has even increased the price over time to account for inflation. Yet they're one of the most popular games on Steam

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (8 children)

    Yeah they are the notable exception. 99% of I die devs aren't that lucky.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Got any proof to back up your claims?

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    What kind of proof do you want?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    You're the one making the claim. The onus lies on you. Either be quiet or pony up.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Yes, burden of proof lies with me, but what proof do you actually want??

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    You're the one making claims figure it out.

    But by this point it's pretty obvious that you have no proof. You're just trying make it look like you're waiting on me because you can't admit you're full of shit.

    Like I said, pony up or shut up

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    It's a pretty simple question and you refusing to answer it just proves you're not here to argue in good faith and just don't want to back yourself into a corner that forces you to accept any particular evidence I would give you. As by refusing to state what evidence you would accept you leave yourself the option of arbitrarily refusing anything I present to you.

    Which is exactly why I ask. I've been on the internet a long time and this is the best method for dealing with bad faith trolls.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Lol.

    Again, that's not how proving claims work. You made the claim, so pony up. If your evidence is so irrefutable, then share it.

    You're literally running the playbook of Gaslight, Obstruct, Project. You should quit "trying" to make indie games and run for political office for the MAGAts.

    This isn't the first time I've seen you posting on here, and you paint yourself as a wannabe indie dev that's totally incompetent so you start bitching and moaning about everyone else instead of actually learning how to make a decent game, all to avoid admitting that you suck at it. Grow up, you are not entitled to have the entire world bow down and tell you you're a special boy like your mother.

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  • [–] 35 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    When the 30% fee gets lowered prices won’t come down. The market has already shown that consumers are willing to pay for the games at the current price level. Publishers will just pocket the increased revenue, instead of passing it on to the consumer.

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  • [+] -9 points 4 months ago* (8 children)

    It means more money going to indie devs instead of Gabe's greedy pocket.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    30% is what everyone charge right?

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Literally no. Lol. But even if it was that doesn't change the point, everyone doing it doesn't mean it's a fair price

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    There's a cost to maintaining infrastructure, and EGS is laying off employees because their 12% cut isn't sustainable.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Stop defending billionaires, the infrastructure costs are a small fraction of the fees they charge

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Seeing as Epic is losing money with a 12% cut, and Steam actually goes down to 20% if you sell enough units, your case doesn't seem particularly good.

    Also, Valve is funneling a ton of money into Linux gaming, especially into open source software. That's infrastructure. And some of it is infrastructure that won't go away if Valve goes bankrupt or enshittifies.

    Also, you're backing up someone who's unironically parroting propaganda from a billionaire monopolist (Tim Sweeney). Get over yourself.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    The comparison to Epic (with a massively lower sales volume) is a bad one, because Valve’s sales volume is so much higher. Once you have a store up and running, the marginal cost of additional units sold in software is extremely low, so most sales are close to 30% of pure profit for Valve.

    The entire Apple App Store costs $100 million a year to run, with revenue recently hitting $1.4 trillion, an infrastructure to revenue ratio of a fraction of a percent. That makes their 30% vig even more unconscionable than Valve’s obscene rake.

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It's not the gamers, it's a commission and there is a lot of misinformation on their website (it can be viewed in English). https://gameclaim.consumercompetitionclaims.com/

    Also tweakers.net a Dutch tech enthusiast website had a good post about it, most of the commenters do not agree with this as well https://tweakers.net/nieuws/249010/steam-laat-klanten-te-veel-betalen-voor-games-volgens-nederlandse-massaclaim.html (Dutch only so you'll have to use a translator if you want to read it)

    People keep forgetting that in the olden days, the left over cut for the publisher was about 40% of the game value, the rest went to warehouse, shipping, and the retailer all got something. The rough estimate left over cut for the developer was 10~15%.

    Now a days as a developer you can sell directly to the customer through Steam, and you don't need a publisher or a network if you only sell on Steam. So that 10~15% cut went to 70% (till x amount of revenue and then it gets lower).

    Next to Steam not being a monopoly and Valve providing all the other companies the blueprint for a success in the PC market, none of the competitors follows it, or compare to the customer service of Steam. And it seems that none of those other billion dollar competitors (Microsoft, Amazon and Epic) wants to invest in a solid platform to stand up to Steam.

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  • [–] 23 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    I don't want to be a steam shill, but does the prevention of selling games cheaper (if this is true or effectively enforced) even do any good? I have over a thousand games on Steam, but I doubt I bought 10% of the games from them. Heck, the latest game I remember buying at release was Oblivion Remaster, and I got it from GMG because it was 17% cheaper on release day then on steam. This happens constantly.
    If we are to objectively look at the problem, why would lifting this rule automatically mean games would be cheaper elsewhere? One of the biggest slogans in favor of Brexit was something along the lines: "of EU membership costing 350m pounds per week, we could spend it on the NHS instead".
    We are paying $70 for games because of Steam, we could be buying them for $55! That **could **there is holding the whole thing up. And its not even real. Its a word on paper. Effectively today; cheaper games than on steam are available, where steam gets a 0% cut and it stuck with the bill of hosting and delivering the game for free. This is the reality. Consumers arent the ones crying here.

    If there is a fight worth fighting, it is the one to be able to transfer digital ownership of game licenses. This is a fight we can take to everyone including Steam. This would be an actual win for consumers. Not bickering about something that in the end wont effect any consumer anywhere. The above is a fight between publishers and distributors...

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I’m curious who’s bankrolling them for this one.

    They are not the same as Noyb who actually are very transparent and actually « believe » in something : these dudes are closer to insurance claims chasers from what I read about them.

    Also I love their Q&A that states that they don’t get money from this

    No. The Consumenten Competition Claims Foundation is a non-profit foundation.

    Someone is absolutely paying them for the action it’s literally 5 questions above and is Winward NL. And they go back to my ambulance chaser parallel since it’s just a company doing litigation finance.

    There’s nothing showing links from those guys to broader financial interests but that would not be out of the possibilities.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    A different FAQ item mentions Winward NL Limited is in the Cayman Islands, which is a really nice place if you would want to hide such links. But yeah, could also be a bunch of individuals just looking for some extra yachts (bonus irony if they buy them from Gaben's yacht company).

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago

    Indeed.

    From their page (https://www.winward.uk/about) they are funded by Rocade Capital. Rocade Capital itself links to EJF Capital and Barings.

    It all could be unethical gambling based on the last Epics shenanigans... Maybe the chances to get a jugement favouring them is now statistically higher than against them.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Why not go for a bigger company first?

    Apple does the same thing with ebooks. When I put my book up for sale with Apple, the terms stated that I could not list it for a lower price at another store. So no, that is not a new form of price fixing.

    Also interested to hear what other digital goods stores charge less than 30%, aside from Epic who definitely wouldn’t maintain that if they had the monopoly position.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Stichting Consumenten Competition Claims

    “Stichting Consumenten … “ shit what’s the Dutch word for claims? Ah fuck it, let’s just switch to English in the middle.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Do these people think that packaging costs plus retail markup were under 30% of a game's cost when we bought physical PC games?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    This sounds more like lobbying than consumer right.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (31 children)

    I love valve as much as any other gamer but I’m with Dutchies on this one. Valve has monopolistic policies

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (30 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    https://www.wolfire.com/blog/2021/05/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action/

    This dev was trying to sell his own game on his own site. A single player game. No steam keys. Just a download. And got threatened by valve to stop or be removed from steam. Illegal since that’s NOT in the contract he signed.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    That's their claim. They provide no proof.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I'm skeptical this wasn't about selling Steam keys on an external site for less than the price on Steam. Plenty of places sell DRM free versions of games at whatever price they want but steam keys can't be discounted on external sites. That price parity is only for steam keys though at least per policy.

    https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys?hl=en-US#%3A%7E%3Atext=You+should+use+Steam+Keys%2Cpurchase+or+download+on+Steam.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (24 children)

    Maybe if you read the goddamn article you'd know of one?

    The foundation claims that Valve holds a dominant position in the market, estimated at around 85%, and is breaching competition law through so-called Most-Favoured Nation clauses. According to the complaint, these terms prevent developers from selling games more cheaply on rival platforms like the Epic Games Store than on Steam. This, they argue, keeps prices across the PC gaming market artificially elevated.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (16 children)

    But if you go on isthereanydeal.com you will see a whole bunch of online stores that offer sales on games. They offer Steam codes too but are not limited to Steam, they cover many other platforms (including Epic).

    (Those btw are all legit sites showing only sales endorsed by the game publishers themselves, they all sell new game codes. ITAD has a standing policy to only source from that kind of sales, strictly no key resale sites.)

    So if you can get Steam games cheaper than are currently listed on Steam, and many games are also available on GOG which is DRM free... not entirely sure what this lawsuit is about.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Could you share an example of a deal that is less than on Steam? I couldn't find one.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    It can import your Steam wishlist and give you tons of examples. 😊

    Here's some: Civ 5, Disco Elysium, Yakuza 6, Borderlands GOTY, Outer Wilds, Doom Eternal.

    You can also make filters that limit the suggestions to a certain sale percentage (eg. 50%+ off), or to a max price (eg. $10).

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    I looked at the examples you gave and in all of them, Steam has the lowest price . I added an example of Doom Eternal

    None

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    Civ 5 is 30€ on Steam and 2-3€ on other Stores.

    Outer Wilds is 23€ on Steam and 16€ elsewhere.

    There may be regional differences for either of us.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Literally all of them are Steam keys. Do you think that if you buy a Steam key from another site it's somehow not Steam that profits?

    I think you might start to understand what this lawsuit is about haha.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Limited time sales is not what's being talked about. Those are allowed.

    It's the regular pricing. A game listed on steam needs to make up for their 30% cut. Some other sites take a smaller cut. But multiple game companies have found that trying to list their games on non-steam key selling websites, for less money (because they don't have to make up for as big a cut) are getting threatened to have their games removed from Steam for doing so. This is well outside any clause in Steam TOS, and would be illegal even if it was covered.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    But multiple game companies have found that trying to list their games on non-steam key selling websites, for less money (because they don’t have to make up for as big a cut) are getting threatened to have their games removed from Steam for doing so.

    Has any of these claims been proven yet?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    They're still working their way through the courts.

    One of them is over two years old, though, so it's not just a clout chaser blowing hot air based on absolutely nothing.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    One of them is over two years old

    Which only proves my point. They allegedly do, and we yet to discover if they actually do it or Epic, Ubisoft and whatever another publisher are lying. 2 years to prove if Valve was abusing the system and still nothing out there to confirm this suspicion.

    I suspect that is really tough to prove and that is why eventually case will be dropped due to lack of evidence.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    A court case with zero evidence doesn't last 2 years...

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Court case with undeniable and sufficient evidence also doesnt last long. There is more to the story than "they do it/they dont do it"

    But claiming they do before it has been proven is dumb.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Defending a company with multiple unrelated entities suing them over the same thing, including non competitors, before they've been proven to NOT be doing that thing is very stupid.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    with multiple unrelated entities suing them

    How do we know they're really unrelated? A lot of the lawsuits are in the US, where bribery lobbying is very prevalent, and the lawsuits brought forth by private entities could be backed by Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Epic, etc. under the table. Hell, any publisher/developer involved in the ESA is by definition not "unrelated".

    Until these lawsuits are fully resolved, nothing has been proven. All we have are claims and speculation at the moment.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    I though that Steam required content parity e.g. you cannot create a cheaper bundle for your own storefront and not sell that exact bundle on Steam. But they have no issue with you generating keys on their platform and either sell those off for cheaper yourself (Humble bundle) or give them away.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Their TOS require non sale price parity with other stores that sell steam keys.

    Nothing else. They'll still threaten to delist your game for seeking it cheaper on sites outside that scenario, hence the multitude of lawsuits.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    They won't. They're here to blindly defend a multi billion dollar company despite it actively costing them more money.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    You right here. Blindly defending them.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    You know perfectly well what I meant. Do you have proof that prices on Steam were actually artificially inflated?

    Also, claiming I'm blindly defending them? I'm asking for hard evidence and telling people to not blindly believe claims and speculation until proven in court. How is waiting for verified evidence "blind"?

    Pure hypocrisy on your end

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