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Dutch gamers file €220 million claim against Valve, operator of game platform Steam (nltimes.nl)
submitted 4 months ago by to c/games@lemmy.world
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[–] 100 points 4 months ago (34 children)

Is there any actual proof of valve taking actions to limit competition or are they just popular because they have a good business model?

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago (18 children)

    They don't limit competition, but it's a more open question whether they are engaging in a form of price fixing.

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  • [+] 44 points 4 months ago (2 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with you that anything using Steam's services should be subject to their terms. I don't think a lot of people are arguing to the contrary about that. I have heard others accuse, though I don't know with how much basis, that they apply the same control to games not using their infra.

    The only example ever floated of them doing this with out steam keys or them being the distribution source was a single email from steam support to a developer. That has been proven over and over to have been a miscommunication and not actually an enforced policy.

    If this is true, I definitely agree that they have done nothing wrong. Problem is with the many conflicting stories online and lack of solid info.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 4 months ago

    If this is true, I definitely agree that they have done nothing wrong. Problem is with the many conflicting stories online and lack of solid info.

    Which will hopefully come to light through discovery or a case.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    Seems to me the only fixing they're doing is fixing the prices lower than other clients.

    Rather than what you usually hear with price fixing, where prices go up. Like Amazon with Levi jeans.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago* (13 children)

    Well, no, it's the opposite. The accusation goes that Steam strong-arms people into keeping prices on Steam the lowest (or tied for lowest) available if they're selling the same game on another storefront. For example, Ubisoft cannot sell a game on their own platform for cheaper than they will also sell it on Steam. This is not good for consumers.

    Again, allegedly.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Of all the accusations against Steam, I'm most amenable to that one. I think devs should be able to sell on their personal storefronts for cheaper, if they're going to the effort of setting up a storefront at all.

    Selling on GOG or Epic for less does feel some type of way too, but I can't say I'd block devs from doing that either.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I think that only applies to selling Steam keys on other platforms. They're free to price the games however they want, but they can't sell keys cheaper somewhere else.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    That's basically the crux of the accusations. Valve says it's only for steam keys, other devs say they've been told not to sell their game for less elsewhere, even if they don't include a steam key. I guess we'll see as the case continues.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 4 months ago

    If it were only about Steam keys, I think I would agree with Steam. Selling Steam keys elsewhere is still making full use of Steam to fulfill distribution of their game.

    It'd probably just lead to Steam not allowing devs to get free keys of their games. You lock into Steam and, if you want a Steam version of the game, you have to buy one.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    That is what everyone takes wrong about the case. Two points I want to mention

    • allegedly, they force other storefronts to match the price on steam or their storefront regardless of what type of key it is (Valve claims it is only for Steam keys)

    • Nobody stops Ubisoft or EGS or whatever to sell their games on their storefront. OR even 3rd party publishers can avoid selling on Steam (look up EGS and Borderlands 4/Metro Exodus case). Literally nobody says they should sell on Steam.

    What annoys me that everyone took "they force them even with own keys to match the price" as a factual truth just because of EGS, Ubi and some other company claimed so. The case is not closed yet. There is no verdict. Nothing is ruled out. And somehow tons of people are angry at Valve?!

    Who do we trust more out of the box? Valve or EGS/Ubi? Sharpen your pitchforks only after the fact are known, people...

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    But wouldn't that be malicious from the dev side? "Hey, don't bother with Steam because it's more expensive. Come buy it here instead". Just don't sell on Steam if it's an issue, but we all know they want to piggyback on the exposure/trust associated with Steam.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 4 months ago

    I'm seeing it as "pay the Steam price for Steam integrations like achievements, if you care about that" and "pay the cheaper price for just the game." People could "abuse" it for free marketing but I don't think most people would do that.

    And you just gotta eat those costs; sorta like how there will be some level of public aid fraud, but that doesn't mean you cancel food stamps.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    How is competition that benefits consumers in the form of lower prices “malicious”?

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    It's not going to result in lower prices for consumers. It's going to result in higher prices on Steam.

    It's also going to fragment the game market on PC. That may or may not be a good thing depending on who you ask, but personally, I like not having to hunt around for the best store to purchase my game in. I go to Steam and I know I'm not getting completely shafted. This is essentially going to allow scummy corps like Ubisoft and EA to implement a "Steam tax" because I don't want to use their shitty, bloated, spyware riddled miserable excuse for a storefront.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The thing is that this is in Steam's TOS when it comes to steam keys. You can sell steam keys but not at a lower price than on Steam. Which is extremely fair -- selling a steam key still means you're using Steam's infrastructure, you don't have to manage the downloads & updates. It does not apply in a situation where you manage your own store with its own infrastructure

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    But that's the crux. The accusation is that Steam has an unwritten policy that applies to non steam key sales, and uses their near monopoly to enforce it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Yes here: https://www.wolfire.com/blog/2021/05/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action/

    They have the proof in the claim, but I don’t know if it’s public yet.

    I agree that steam should enforce STEAM CODE sales to be the same price, but this is just a download of the game. I hope steam just fucked yo here and misunderstood; otherwise, it’s completely anticompetitive and is illegal based on the contract the developer signed from valve.

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, but all the valve fanboys will argue anyone who mentions the multiple price fixing lawsuits (which are not related to using steam key sellers, but they'll endlessly post that TOS clause anyway) against Valve into oblivion.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    A pending lawsuit is a merely a claim, not a proven fact or hard evidence. Swamping an entity with lawsuits doesn't mean the defendent is guilty, because you can sue for anything.

    We've already seen this happen with Monsanto, Disney, Nintendo, etc. where they go after smaller entities by smothering them in lawsuits to drain their coffers. It doesn't matter if some lawsuits get thrown out or whether they're valid, they just need to squash the competition.

    And Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, Sony, Epic, Ubisoft, EA, etc. all have financial reason to see Valve fall. Linux adoption is a threat to Microsoft and Apple, the PC market is a threat to console manufacturers, and having a pro-consumer store as the dominant player in the market limits what anti-consumer practices other storefronts can do.

    Don't just blindly trust claims and speculation, especially when there's a lot of finilancial incentive to lie. Wait for lawsuits to actually get resolved.

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  • [+] -6 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    I know from experience valve coerces developers into participating in their sale events, basically saying there game won't get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.

    Which considering they already take a massive 30% cut of developers earnings, is very scummy. Lots of indie Devs that already struggle to make money and already sell their games for super cheap are basically forced to cut their profits even further just to get some visibility on the platform.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    basically saying there game won't get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.

    I'm very skeptical of that. The Factorio devs famously refuse to ever put the game on sale, and has even increased the price over time to account for inflation. Yet they're one of the most popular games on Steam

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (8 children)

    Yeah they are the notable exception. 99% of I die devs aren't that lucky.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Got any proof to back up your claims?

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    What kind of proof do you want?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    You're the one making the claim. The onus lies on you. Either be quiet or pony up.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Yes, burden of proof lies with me, but what proof do you actually want??

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    You're the one making claims figure it out.

    But by this point it's pretty obvious that you have no proof. You're just trying make it look like you're waiting on me because you can't admit you're full of shit.

    Like I said, pony up or shut up

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    It's a pretty simple question and you refusing to answer it just proves you're not here to argue in good faith and just don't want to back yourself into a corner that forces you to accept any particular evidence I would give you. As by refusing to state what evidence you would accept you leave yourself the option of arbitrarily refusing anything I present to you.

    Which is exactly why I ask. I've been on the internet a long time and this is the best method for dealing with bad faith trolls.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Lol.

    Again, that's not how proving claims work. You made the claim, so pony up. If your evidence is so irrefutable, then share it.

    You're literally running the playbook of Gaslight, Obstruct, Project. You should quit "trying" to make indie games and run for political office for the MAGAts.

    This isn't the first time I've seen you posting on here, and you paint yourself as a wannabe indie dev that's totally incompetent so you start bitching and moaning about everyone else instead of actually learning how to make a decent game, all to avoid admitting that you suck at it. Grow up, you are not entitled to have the entire world bow down and tell you you're a special boy like your mother.

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