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Cultural impact (quokk.au)
submitted 5 months ago by to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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Cultural impact

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[–] 103 points 5 months ago (39 children)

The pacing of releases was whack.

Too long between 1 and 2, not long enough between 2 and 3.

I also heard that 2 and 3 were basically the same movie, and that they weren't even that good.

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  • [–] 113 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    I mean, 1 didn’t make me crave sequels, even if they were soon available.

    It was a fun action movie, sure. A visual spectacle. But not a world I felt invested in.

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  • [–] 36 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I felt like it was a world where a loooot of effort was put into certain aspects and then other parts of the world were neglected. Seemed like a waste of potential. For example some of the visual effects are kinda good even today, not just cause of the fidelity but also cause it seems like one cohesive piece. Talking about cohesion, the first and second halfs of this movie are two different movies, both with the storytelling and the visual effects and i like the first half muuuch more. Feels like if the movie focused on the Na'vi more it wouldve been better. An actually interesting story about slowly fitting more and more into a different culture got turned into some generic about natives fighting back, which you can do but then use one of the thousand examples irl, dont waste such a good oppurtunity to make something special. This is why i think so few fancy, high-budget movies tell good stories, without visual effects and huge sets you actually have to tell a story worth hearing to make your movie special. This of course doesnt mean visually captivating movies cant be narratively engaging, im just saying its rare.

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  • [–] 33 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    That’s overcomplicating it.

    Maybe that’s the issue.

    The characters just… weren’t charismatic/engaging. I can’t name a single one. The world was intricate, and exotic, and gorgeous, and… kind of superficial?

    I think the other Avatar is a perfect contrast.

    Iroh. Zuko. Toph. Azula. Korra, Tenzin, Zaheer. To me, these character are instantly memorable because they were so distinct in purpose and culture, even extending to minor characters like Suki or Su.

    And take bending. It’s a concept as simple as a rock, but they embed it in everything, from mundane chores to personalities and cycles to martial arts scenes. They never need to explain anything about it in words or narration.

    Hence it’s be cool if the James Cameron Avatar characters where sharp, so distinct you could cut yourself on them. If their nature synergy, dependence on unobtanium or whatever was really woven into mundane life and such, to make it feel like an important system. There’s nothing wrong with another “natives fighting back” story, but I didn’t feel anything pull me into the struggle.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Yeah, I think movies could really be used to great effect in sci fi and fantasy where setting is a major character, but it's rarely done. I understand why, it's a more artsy thing to do, but one that demands large budgets. However I do think it's something Avatar should have leaned more into and it's something I really liked in the Dune movies.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    The end action sequence was just the end action sequences from the first 2 films stacked on top of each other.

    The thing is, it was still visually gorgeous, and I loved watching it in the theatre. Avatar is eye candy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Oh - and I do think the idea of trees with shared root systems forming a planet-wide distributed consciousness is actually pretty awesome sci-fi.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Pretty sure the Exodites from Warhammer 40k have something similar going on, problem is Exodite lore is fucken barren. GW give me space murder elves, Athel Loren in space with dinosaurs is all I want, let me feed Abadon to the trees GW.

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  • [–] 25 points 5 months ago (15 children)
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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago* (12 children)

    As someone who hasn't watched FernGully (but should), I'm increasingly skeptical of these types of "plagiarism" comparisons between movies. Lindsay Ellis recently broke down the "Aladdin was stolen" narrative and compellingly showed "it's complicated", and more obviously, YMS five years ago fucking eviscerated the then-popular argument that The Lion King was a ripoff of Kimba the White Lion.

    (Edit: I'd say this especially goes for someone like James Cameron who clearly takes immense pride in his work and setting himself apart. That's circumstantial, of course, but it seems totally out-of-character.)

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Was Kimba also based on Hamlet or something? As far as I'm concerned that plotline is in the public domain. Or is it just using lions to tell the story that was supposedly stolen?

    Also, how could Aladdin be "stolen" when it obviously takes direct inspiration from several stories in 1001 Arabian Nights? Are people claiming that it was stolen from some other story that was inspired by the same book?

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (4 children)
    • The accusation for Aladdin is complicated and is based on The Thief and the Cobbler.
    • On the other hand, your instincts are entirely right about The Lion King, and when I say "YMS eviscerated it", I mean that it's the most comically ridiculous yet superficially believable accusation of plagiarism you could possibly come up with. This is genuinely worth 147 minutes of your time, and it's one of the funniest videos I've ever watched. One of the comments summarizes it best: "Damn, can't believe kimba invented Africa, and real life just ripped them off like that."
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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago*

    And now people are accusing the upcoming Disney movie Hexed of being a ripoff of Owl House because apparently Owl House invented the idea of a hero being transported to a magical world.

    I understand Owl House fans are mad that Disney canceled the show prematurely and made the ending rushed. I agree that Disney shouldn't have done that. But I'm not going to fault Disney for making another story where a character is transported to a magical world. Heck, Disney did it decades ago with Alice in Wonderland and with Peter Pan. They also did it with the Chronicles of Narnia and there are many more examples, both Disney and non-Disney

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I see. From wikipedia:

    In 1973, a promotional booklet was released with a public announcement by Williams about the status of his project:

    Nasrudin was found to be too verbal and not suitable for animation, therefore Nasrudin as a character and the Nasrudin stories were dropped as a project. However, the many years work spent on painstaking research into the beauty of Oriental art has been retained. Loosely based on elements in the Arabian Nights stories, an entirely new and original film is now the main project of the Williams Studio. Therefore any publicity references to the old character of Nasrudin are now obsolete.

    So it seems the Thief and the Cobbler was based in part on the Arabian Nights, and the original plot was also from Arab folklore.

    So in other words, Aladdin is merely based on the same work of classic literature, which I believe is public domain. So allegations of plagiarism are foolish, unless all references to Arab folklore are now off the table too.

    One of the comments summarizes it best: "Damn, can't believe kimba invented Africa, and real life just ripped them off like that."

    That's pretty funny. I might watch the video another day. From your comment I gather enough to conclude that the main premise of the accusation is "Shakespeare told by animals," and I concur that that's laughable.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    From your comment I gather enough to conclude that the main premise of the accusation is "Shakespeare told by animals," and I concur that that's laughable.

    It's somehow baser than you suspect for the accusations against The Lion King – but more complex for Aladdin. I'd highly recommend Lindsay Ellis' video for a history lesson exploring the nuances. I'll at least spoil that Kimba has nothing to do with Shakespeare and that whatever level of tepid, token generosity you're willing to grant the plagiarism accusations, it's dumber than that.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    So the plot wasn't even similar, and people were just upset that the characters were lions? That is indeed even more laughable.

    Some people must really get off on hating on the Lion King because I've also heard it called racist for the following reasons:

    1. The characters have African-sounding names. (Um, what, would it be somehow less racist to name them "Steve" and "Nancy"?)

    2. They didn't employ black voice actors in enough main roles. (Mufasa was voiced by a black man).

    3. The hyenas were allegedly depictions of racist tropes. (As a kid watching the Lion King, I never made this supposed connection that the hyenas were ostensibly caricatures of black people; they were just hyenas. The critics who apparently perceived that connection are racist for doing so).

    I've also heard people criticize it for ostensibly promoting monarchy (it's a fucking story, and it's based on a plot by shakespeare about a monarchy. I don't think the intent was to make a political statement about the advantages of monarchy)

    Anyway, I read the backstory behind The Thief and The Cobbler and it sounds like all the nuance has less to do with Aladdin and more to do with Nasrudin. It's not Aladdin's fault it took the producers 40 years to put out a subpar film. And it's not like Miramax owned the rights to Arabian Nights or even the "Arabian aesthetic." It might be complex, but none of that complexity is Aladdin's problem.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    The Aladdin bit is that there was another project in the Disney pipeline by a famed director that also had a lot of Arabian aesthetics, and I think a lot of the people upset are bitter that the other one just didn't turn out very well.

    You should watch the Lindsay Ellis video, it's pretty good.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    TIL that the Arabian aesthetic can only be one person's intellectual property /s

    And yeah, I just read about The Thief and the Cobbler. The reason it didn't turn out well was because it was in production for 40 years, changed plots/themes/characters multiple times, was started and finished by different producers, and there was a falling out early on with the owners of the original story it was supposed to be based on.

    So that had nothing to do with Aladdin incidentally also borrowing themes and tropes from 1001 Arabian Nights.

    You can't just take 40 years to do a shitty job at something and then blame someone else for taking less time to do a better job at something only vaguely similar...

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    I don't remember the director himself instigating this feud.

    I mean, I'm sure it reached him. Maybe he felt bitter, maybe he got over it. I think the plagiarism thing was pushed moreso by fans and Disney haters, though.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    As someone who had FernGully on VHS, there are marked similarities, though it's not exactly 1-to-1. The main conflict is resource extraction, although instead of a gung-ho colonel we get Tim Curry as literal pollution. The protagonist gets transformed to fit in with the locals, but it's an accident by one of the locals instead of deliberate choice. Instead of a cranky Sigourney Weaver, we get a spastic Robin Williams as a bat.

    Overall, Avatar is closer to FernGully than to a lot of other going-native movies. Environmental conservation is the driving theme of both films.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    My understanding is that it was an unexpected success and it was used as a technology demonstration for Alita. However Alita was much less successful.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    2 and 3 are the same movie. I came for the bombastic spectacle, I watched it in 4D with moving seats, steam machines and a wind tunnel and I had a good time. I knew the story would be forgettable trash and with the right expectations I had a good time.

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    • [–] 42 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    When I saw it in the theater back when it came out, it was with my extended family and I knew nothing about it. I assumed it was an Avatar: The Last Airbender movie (which I also knew almost nothing about other than the name). It was a ways into the movie before I realized that I was watching the movie and not some sort of extended preview of another one.

    The movie was fine. Great visuals, mediocre plot. It doesn't deserve to have had much of a cultural impact.

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  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Does it have a cultural impact? The franchise seems to have very few hardcore fans and hardly any casual fans. I was at a comic con this weekend and i have seen a guy dressed as a navi. That was the only cosplay i have ever seen. There is also a guy that has his car airbrushed with avatar stuff ever since the first movie came out. Other than that i don't think i have ever even seen an avatar tshirt

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Never seemed to be marketed that way.

    I like the films - then again, I'm a sucker for big cinema and IMAX 3D, so from an eye-candy perspective, it's glorious. Is the story anything earth-shaking? Of course not. It's escapist fluff.. but oh.. how it looks.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I feel like saying "James Cameron made a film about nothing" is unfair. I don't think it's about nothing. It's about colonialization. It's about inter-species racism, but in like a corporate kind of way.

    And yet, it really feels like a film about nothing. I wonder why that is.

    Is it just that it has nothing interesting to say about how colonialization works? It's been a long time since I've seen the film, but I do sort of remember it coming to really obvious conclusions.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I think it fell into a ton of tropes is all. Eh, it was a product of it's time - as all films are - and I found it similar to Dances With Wolves. Banged up protaginist, left broken by his service goes to the frontier and finds a new life..

    There it is..

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Didnt Disney build an entire theme park section based on the franchise?

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    They built an area in the Animal Kingdom part of Disney World that is more or less just a bit of fake jungle and rocks that looked like it could be on the planet the movie takes place on. Like the A Bug's Life section that they had years ago. I don't even know if it had a ride.

    The park itself (Disney Animal Kingdom) is just basically a zoo. And not even a good one.

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    • [–] 29 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    One word: Papyrus

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    [–] 25 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    The other Avatar, on the other hand…

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    • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    i once got 3rd place in an avatar trivia competition on a modded minecraft server

    i still have not received my prize

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    • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    I was entertained, it was pretty, it pushed for better facial animations. Other than that it's no real major impact.

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    it pushed for better facial animations

    It genuinely pushed for a lot of technical achievements. Knowledge/skills that will be able to improve future films. Sure, the Avatar films may not be good films on their own. But they are being used to develop technologies which will make for better films from other people who actually want to make good films.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    eh. I think cameron's masturbating.

    he's just pushing stuff around and making nifty bits and bobs, but there's none of the genius that was present in terminator, aliens, the abyss, etc., it does advance the tech but in no way meaningfully and the vast majority of the big advancements are too expensive for smaller creators to leverage.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    but there’s none of the genius that was present in terminator, aliens, the abyss

    T2 was just the start, beginning with the morph CGI.

    The big studios want to do away with animatronics, stop-motion animation, miniatures, physical VFX and prosthetics, believing them to cost so much to shareholders, and spend on and scale up CGI but at the expense of enthusiasts wanting suspension of disbelief over realism.

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    • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I never even saw it. From what I heard it's basically Pocahontas in space. The main new thing was that it was the first major 3D movie, so I'm not very surprised it didn't stick.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago*

    I've never seen it, because even as a kid, I knew James Cameron was a hack and it would be some rehashed story with new paint that he'd call the next big thing.

    Turns out it was basically Dances With Wolves with blue aliens.

    Edit: Or so I have been told.

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    • [–] 14 points 5 months ago

    At this point, I think its most lasting cultural impact is everyone's opinion on how little cultural impact it had.

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    [–] 55 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    I really feel like the vast majority of people misunderstand these movies. They are visual feasts, made specifically to be pretty and push tech used for movies further along. I have never seen anything from Cameron or anyone else involved say otherwise. They aren't trying to be story telling masterpieces, they are popcorn flicks that you go to the biggest and best cinema to see and just be wowed by the spectacle. And I really enjoy them for that, seen all three in cinemas, biggest and best screens with 3d in my city. Had a blast every time, it's all about knowing what you're watching and why.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago

    Okay, yes, true, but they also constructed the entire N'avi language, created a fuckton of lore about the planet, and thoroughly fleshed out the lore and design of Earth and its voyage to and from Pandora.

    This wasn't a visual feast made for the viewer, this was a feast made to employ all these skilled artisans in a massive production, and EVERYONE except the writers fucking blew it out of the water.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    But that's the whole point. The highest-grossing movie of all time was a popcorn flick with zero cultural impact. That's exactly what this meme is saying. How are people misunderstanding this?

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    [–] 11 points 5 months ago

    Bad crop? Bro, we're gonna starve

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    [–] 9 points 5 months ago

    I didn't realize Zuckerberg was in it

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    [–] 9 points 5 months ago

    I remember south park making fun of Avatar for being so painfully generic.

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    [–] 9 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    I'm genuinely surprised the sequels are making money. I didn't see any of them in theatres. I didn't think people cared about this franchise. Maybe some are going mainly for the visuals, that's the main reason I go to see the Jurassic movies

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I’m genuinely surprised the sequels are making money

    The second one did well, but the third made half what the second made. I dont expect we'll see a fourth

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I agree. Understanding that the visuals might be highly regarded, I truly don't know of anyone in my network who goes to see these sequels. It makes me wonder if the numbers for viewership are inflated.

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    • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I was thinking about this the other day - I saw the movie and I know what a Navi is, but I can't recall a single memorable quote or name a character. There is no memorable SNL sketch except the one masking fun of the Papyrus font. There is no fandom, there is nothing

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The fauna was beautiful and well-thought out EXCEPT for the Navi because four-armed, collar breathing bipeds would probably won't feel human enough for the target audience

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I don't want to undersell the design or technical achievements of the films. They are truly beautiful and it's clear where the budget went. Other than being pretty to look at and inspiring a Disney Park, what is the cultural impact?

    For contrast, Kevin Smith made a movie for the cost of a car that people still quote 30 years later.

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    • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Ferngully did it better.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Haven't watched Avatar, but I think it at least shows the "real bad guys" instead of a monster that isn't even a proper reference to the CEO of the corp

    Also, oh my god there is a Ferngully 2!? WHY???

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    Ferngully 2!? WHY???

    Just wait for the live action remake! They're coming for your generation's childhood next...

    Signed,

    An old fart

    (NGL, Masters of the Universe looks like it could be pretty dope)

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