Good to know, but sad that it has to be said.

top 98 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 56 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Ok sure, but how much of the game will actually be generated by dolphins?

This will probably be just another example of HUMAN appropriation when plenty of dolphin developers are struggling to even find work in this industry. Maybe when dolphins are literally the subject matter of the game we could consider inclusivity in its development?

#dolphin_life #Phins_In_Gaming #NotMyEcco

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    In the original game I’m sure you had to be a dolphin to beat the first level

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    You know, I recall playing this at a friend's house decades ago and being totally, utterly, stuck on the first level for like... many hours.

    So yeah, you may be right about that.

    Was there like, a maze in that level? I think I remember a maze that ultimately led to a smaller area of open water, where you were just like "well fuckin' now what?"

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Oh come on, I see right through your posturing to be allowed to open an all-dolphin game dev sweat shop. Stop it, it's a waste of money because the whales always interfere and get the dolphins to unionize after the dolphins earn their programming degrees and then they go out and write emulators (because obviously we just close the shop). One of these days they'll get in contract with the penguins and might start pumping out Linux distros!

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 84 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    I knew that "No AI used" is going to become a huge selling point for many products. And I think this is just the start.

  • source
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    That's excellent. And as these mega corps watch consumers favor those products. Maybe, just maybe they'll fucking implode. That's just a fantasy I know.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I made a post about thia exact thing a couple of weeks ago! I will give my money to people not using ai bullshit, and if theyre liars, they wont see a cent from me again. People need to stand up and have some damn principles about this.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    The reality is software engineers will use AI or will find themselves out of work as they won't have the skills to get hired.

    Customers may never know if AI is used as a tool in game creation but it will always be part of any software and development studio.

    Using AI for music or design assets is totally different from using it for the code base and blanket statements don't improve the situation

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I could see a refusal to use codegen as a potential liability, but that's not "skills". The biggest thing about codegen is you have to review it and just lower your expectations that the code comes from a technique dumber than the dumbest human intern you have ever seen and approach it with supremely thorough skepticism. It's exhausting how dumb it can be and how you have to be paranoid for every single piece of output. But it's not a "skill"

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    While we don't do game development, my company has investigated using gen ai for code and we found that it doesn't reliably assist us in anything other than boilerplate code. I personally found that it hallucinates APIs on the regular which made it a massive waste for me as I basically had to go back and rewrite most of the code myself. Using gen ai for code reminded me of every time I've worked at a company that outsourced code; we rarely ever got what we asked for and by the time we got something usable it still wouldn't be up to our standards, which generally resulted in scrapping what was delivered and having to rewrite the whole thing internally.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Using AI for code requires a high level of specificity, software houses that are getting the most out of it are not using it so much inline or vibe coding because as you say that leads to hallucinations or having to repeat yourself.

    The common approach now is to use multiple agents with different responsibilities, the human effectively becomes a team leader and uses one chatbot to orchestrate a plan being very specific about the outcomes and the requirements and breaking the plan down into phases,

    Another agent will be used to write the code, they will have set rules files to keep them on guard rails, they will check their work as they go and deliver a pull request at the end of it for the human to check and approve

    The next agent will be there to write tests and check the work of the second agent.

    It's a lot more work than writing a single prompt and expecting a good outcome or close approximation, but it is getting better results now.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    I'm so fucking pumped for new Ecco games. I loved the original on Genesis and it's about damn time we get some fresh stuff in the series.

    Even better with this statement

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I hope they make an effort with the soundtrack. For me that was a big highlight on all games (specially Sega CD).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Genesis music is of its own genre. So good

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 52 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    What if I use DLSS to upscale and add frames?

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    Maybe the new Ecco game will be optimized well enough to not need or include DLSS and frame generation. 🤷‍♂️

    If they use that stuff and it's still a 2D platformer, holy fucking shit. 🤣

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I need 800fps. One of my Steam games was 800+ fps on its HUD even though it was on a 60fps monitor. My GPU was going at 100%.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 35 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    AI is quite bad at pixel art in fact.

    It understands things must look roughly made by squares, but it doesn't understand what pixels are and their fixed grid.

  • source
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    even if it is exclusively trained on pixel art?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yep. It will create something that at a glance looks like pixel art, then you zoom in and find anti-aliased rectangular pixels made out of three different shades of the main color, a weird line, and no clear grid.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    If you use a pixel art export node in ComfyUI that won't be a problem. There's a whole guide about it here:

    https://inzaniak.github.io/blog/articles/the-pixel-art-comfyui-workflow-guide.html

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    A whole song and dance to post-process a broken pixel art image into a fixed grid. I'd rather just have talent or pay a human being that will make art in the first place, thanks.

    Also, the example shown would be a terrible image to use as an asset, by the way. It's a clear example of not pixel art, rather, 2D art forced to be interpolated in a "pixel like" fashion (aka what happens if you do a few nearest neighbor passes and then a fixed grid downsampling)

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Note that there's more than one model to do pixel art and there's pixel art LoRAs that do a decent job. There's loads of flexibility when generating this kind of thing.

    Also, you can just tell it to generate a thousand over like 10 minutes and pick the best one and use that as a base to improve upon. AI is just a single tool in the workflow.

    I also want to point out that not everyone can just pay someone. Don't be paternalistic: If people want to use AI in their workflow for any reason that's their concern. To angrily throw your hands in the air and say, "I'm not touching it because AI!" is like giving free money to the big publishers.

    You're setting a completely unnecessary high bar, "you must be this rich to ride."

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago

    OMG NEW ECCO GAME

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I actually put just a single ai generated pixel in all my games

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago

    Not a single pixel. The code, however...

  • source
  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Not a single pixel. So they will not generate a single pixel, but multiple pixels?

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    A new Ecco game?? Yess. Love the genesis versions

  • source
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Annunziata has been talking about a new game for decades. I'm sceptical he'll produce a single pixel tout court.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [+] 4 points 10 months ago* (10 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    It's about saving the planet, I think

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

    The developer – whose credits also include Chakan: The Forever Man, Kolibri, Mr. Bones and Three Dirty Dwarves – has previously been quite vocal about his support of tech such as Web3, AI and LLMs (Large Language Models) in video games.

    His LinkedIn profile states that one of his "near-term" goals is to "create an AI system to generate ergodic game content." His current company, PLAYCHEMY, lists "gamification of AI models, Stable Diffusion, LLM, and NeRF" as some of its primary areas of interest.

    Save the planet with ECCO, to kill it everywhere else? It's just marketing (it's working though). Wait for the reviews instead.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (6 children)

    Listening to marketeers do their thing. Have we not learned our lesson yet. They'll say whatever it is to sell their game.

    Let them make it. Let them release it. Find out if it's something you want to buy. Buy it. "It's about saving the planet" why would anyone volunteer to carry water for them?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (5 children)

    I mean I didn't buy into hype even when I got the gameboy pocket camera, never have and also never pre-ordered anything. except once, I realise I pre-ordered wow to get it at launch day

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    "It's about saving the planet" - KeenFlame.

    It isn't about saving the planet. They never said it was about saving the planet, they don't think GenAI is destroying the planet (see excerpt) The saving the planet thing came all from you.

    It's about marketing, and it's working, here you are saying ecco the dolphin is saving the planet. Unless you were telling me the plot of ecco, and yeah I suppose, but that's a bit out of context. Haven't bought into the hype? What more hype is there than saving the planet.

    What's the most over hyped game you know? Where were people saying it was saving the planet? Great graphics, incredible gameplay, get to watch an acorn grow into a tree in real time... But saving the planet?!

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

    I think you just don't get the joke..?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    Probably not. Mind explaining it?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    The game (I only knew about the Super Nintendo one) is, but AI is bad for the environment. But it only works if someone kneejerks about the AI part and then you say something like "I meant, the game..". .. idk ok I was going to wing it. You'll have to forgive me, I'm a dad..

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago*

    You'll have to forgive me too. I fell into a bit of a poe's law.

    I'm not "AI bad" and "AI bad" has been acting real crazy lately, so it didn't seem out of character for an "AI bad" person to say ecco the dolphin, by virtue of having no AI, is saving the planet. The game still took power and resources to develop. Not only isn't it saving the planet, regardless of AI, it's harming it.

    I am however "Corporation bad", so I was doubly overly sensitive. 1st someone was saying some perceived AI bad silliness. 2nd they were also saying that the corporation harming the planet, was saving the planet. You got your knee jerk though.

    Unless you were telling me the plot of ecco, and yeah I suppose, but that’s a bit out of context.

    Sorry to preempt your punch line. Joke wasn't missed, just unappreciated. My bad. I don't wanna rehash a GenAI debate though, see here for my latest one.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Thank goodness I was worried the French fever dream of ECCO would be ruined

  • source
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Ok, that was always allowed!

  • source
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    I somehow read "not a single pixel will not be AI generated" at first. My brain just defaulted to that. I was confused by the replies for a minute straight.

  • source
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    Ye i just saw a vid on ecco. Wishlisting fs

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Not a single one. In fact it will be nothing less than all of the one's

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    It's the same kind of sadness that I feel knowing that a ton of YouTubers who would rather not show their face now have to just so that people know that they're not a fucking clanker. Especially if they're new at it and don't have a backlog or community to prove that they've been around longer than the AI slop.

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I remember getting irrationally pissed off at the genesis version when i was little lol. Great game though.

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I wonder if the name Ecco has to do with John C. Lilly.

  • source
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago
    [+] -11 points 10 months ago (22 children)

    I guess I'm an outlier, I judge games on if they are fun to play.

  • source
  • hideshow 22 child comments
  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Unfortunately you are not, that's what most people do. We should all be including ethics in our purchases.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [+] -8 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    I do include ethics in my decisions. My ethics simply aren't dictated by copyright juggernauts.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    So all the individual artists who had their work scraped are juggernauts?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    No. DeviantArt, Universal, Disney, Shutterstock, Instagram and friends are the juggernauts. Artists already gave it all away.

    There isn't a scenario where individual artists get a piece of that money. Legislation, if it comes, will protect data aggregators, record companies and Hollywood, with the aim of killing open source.

    Google paid 60$ million for Reddit's data and I still haven't received my dollar. Google would also love it if training a model costs so much only they could afford to build a legal one.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    So it's okay to steal their work for AI and commercial profit because they posted it on the internet?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    I'm saying they stopped owning it the moment they put it on the big websites and signed away their work by clicking the box at the end of the ToS. I don't think it's right, just how it is.

    I see two choices:

    1. Scrapping isn't considered theft and we all get easy access to these new tools.

    2. It's considered theft and the new tools end up behind censored subscription models while shutter stock makes a shit load of money.

    Paying every artists what they are worth is a logistical nightmare because of the amount of data needed. It simply won't happen and isn't a realistic scenario. It sucks but sticking your head in the sand and giving a soft monopoly to google and openai only helps google and openai.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago*

    I understand what you are saying, but it also assumes surrendering to AI. Many of us are planning to avoid, boycott, and fight that slop to our dying breath. AI needs to be unpopular and unprofitable. The technology isn’t going to disappear, but we can make sure it’s not socially acceptable to steal from or replace humans with expensive, inefficient, misanthropic, planet-killing software and hardware. Progress is being made and it’s important to understand that — just like crypto — this is a fight we can win.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I hope your boss won't pay you, because that honestly sounds like a logistical nightmare! They'd need like specialized employees and stuff to pay people! Craaazy!

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago*

    Bruh, stable diffusion was trained on billions of images, with their owners spanning the globe. My work has about 300 employees all living in one city and it still take a few separate teams with multiple people each to handle it.

    You're simply an idiot if you think it isn't a nightmare imo. Think before you speak please.

    Take a napkin and do some math on how much you think each image is worth and what kind of budget a company would need to put out a model. Ignore the logistics completely.

    Google doesn't mind paying that price because they can recoup it with the monopoly it gives them. You guys are basically begging for a handful of companies to have it all, begging for walled gardens. Legit bootlicking.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    There's no shortage of games that are fun to play, you can just select for studios that don't rely on the Grand Plagiarism Tool to get you to give them money

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It's not all plagiarism, though. For instance, Embark Studios uses AI to create in-game voice lines for characters in their games. They made their own models with actors hired specifically to train them.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    That's kinda a different case than what everyone is referring to when they're talking about this

    However, it's an interesting point: do we know those voice actors are being paid the same as if they did the lines all themselves or is this a studio cheaping out on paying actors to do the job?

    There might have been a load of actors who turned the job down before they found someone desperate enough for the money or naive enough to not realise it will likely drive down wages for voice actors if this becomes commonplace.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Same TBF, I don't really care if AI was used as long as it is an enjoyable game and the usage of it doesn't contrast from the game itself.

    Being said, most the time when generative AI is used, it comes out sloppy and unenjoyable so if there is the genAI flag on the store page I will definitely give it a more thorough once over.

    Procedural or structural AI though I don't even bat an eye on. It's whatever at that point we have used tools like that for years anyway and it's never been a problem.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    I think this still matters in a long term.

    Good games tend to be made by big teams. That’s why when you hear about some auteur recruiting his own random team for a game, it ends up being a failed venture usually.

    AI is often an effort to replace large teams with small ones, churning someone’s half-baked thoughts into code and art. The result is rarely human and inventive; and in a lot of ways, it tends to show in the end product.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'm mostly thinking of indie devs and how it can let small teams do more. I think some of these tools are a real boon to the industry, it's quickly becoming trivial to included animated cut scenes for example. I think the human and inventive part can still shine with competent devs.

    I'm not advocating for shovelware here or games that are 90% AI, but a lot of teams that can't afford certain dedicated positions would probably benefit from using it in some parts of their game.

    If it isn't noticable and gives us a better game, I'm more than willing to ignore the copyright companies constant wailing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago

    This is my take at well, but not just for gaming... AI is changing the landscape for all sorts of things. For example, if you wanted a serious, professional grammar, consistency, and similar checks of your novel you had to pay thousands of dollars for a professional editor to go over it.

    Now you can just paste a single chapter at a time into a FREE AI tool and get all that and more.

    Yet here we are: Still seeing grammatical mistakes, copy & paste oversights, and similar in brand new books. It costs nothing! Just use the AI FFS.

    Checking a book with an AI chat bot uses up as much power/water as like 1/100th of streaming a YouTube Short. It's not a big deal.

    The Nebula Awards recently banned books that used AI for grammar checking. My take: "OK, so only books from big publishers are allowed, then?"

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -9 points 10 months ago

    You aren't an outlier. People judge art in a complex way including final product uniqueness and complexity. AI is just one factor. Hardcore anti AI crowd lives mostly in their own echo chamber.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›