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[–] 161 points 11 months ago (2 children)
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    [–] 200 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (74 children)

    I think that's specific to mammals. Just off the top of my head...

    Invertebrates? No. All out

    Fish? No. Also a Hammerhead would've really sold this comic lol.

    Birds? No. Though, even on the side they do often have a tilt toward frontal in a lot of predatory birds. It could be argued...

    Reptiles? No.

    Amphibians? No. There's no even trying to place rules on that optical chaos.

    Mammals? Yeah, pretty much. Can't think of an outlier but I'm sure there's plenty of obvious ones.

    Edit' Ah, there we go. Of course marine mammals are an exception. But back in land, as too are llamas. Makes you wonder...what are the llamas plotting?

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  • [–] 54 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    whales and dolphins are mammals, and they have eyes on the side. Don't think anything preys on them (at least for the full-grown ones, pretty sure baby whales are preyed on)

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  • [–] 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Sperm whales are apex(orcas will target calves but they stay the hell away from bulls) but they don't hunt their monstrous cephalopod prey(which in any sane ecosystem would be apex themselves) with eyes.

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  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago* (34 children)

    A non-predator mammal with front facing eyes: llamas.

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  • [–] 17 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    Are llamas' eyes not side-facing? That's what it looks like in photos to me

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  • [–] 27 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago* (4 children)

    Llamas are dangerous, so if you see one where people are swimming, you shout: Look out, there are llamas!

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    This joke only works in Spanish.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    "Cuidado, hay llamas!" ... I don't get it.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    I know. But I can't find the humor in imagining a pool with fire. Also, in spanish we would say "on" instead of "in" to apply the secons meaning. Or at leas to me that's how it would really mean that there's fire at the pool: "la pileta esta en llamas" vs. "hay llamas en la pileta".

    Anyway... I am just an overthinker..

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    pretty sure they face forwards. That's what Minecraft ones look like, anyway, and a quick search of real ones look like they have forward-facing eyes

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (15 children)

    Pandas as well. Non-predator but clearly front facing eyes.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Pandas are descendants of omnivores with a predator streak, them rat fucking their diet to near koala levels of bad doesn't really factor in yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    Idk if "descendants of omnivores" counts because then you could exclude a number of critters like pigs for being "descendants of herbivores" and then 'why do pigs have more stereoscopic vision than a t-rex '

    The obvious caveat is that pandas at the minimum don't have selective pressure for side eyes or they have something pressuring stereoscopic vision even more similar to how aquatic animals have less selective pressure for forward facing eyes.

    I would imagine the way pandas eat bamboo stalks is more visual than most herbivores and that alone could help them retain steroscopic vision.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)

    I was trying to imply that pandas did it recently enough for such pressures to not have kicked in yet. Probably should've specified that a bit better.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Google tells me that pandas started eating bamboo 6-8 million years ago and stopped eating meat 3 million years ago.

    That's not exactly recent.

    For reference, the first Homo appeared 2.8 million years ago and the first Homo Sapiens 300 000 years ago.

    The last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees lived 5-10 million years ago.

    So if evolution can evolve humans in that time frame, you'd expect that it could also adapt an omnivour to a herbivour.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Huh I legit thought they were a more recent species, like last glacial maximum. Is this one of those things like with the three toe sloth and two toe sloth where they are on opposite sides of their evolutionary tree but look generally similar? Are pandas kinda like sun bears where they are more or less doing their own thing while black, brown, and polar bears stay grouped weirdly close to each other in behavior.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    That's the speculation on gut length in pandas based on statistical methods but panda teeth are already well adapted to eat bamboo so selection has been working on them for some time or at least there is no opposing selection at work in panda teeth preventing them from changing. Strangly the large canines are used to cut the bamboo which might be what created their niche in the first place, but their teeth are otherwise very different from other bear teeth.

    Its been a while since I dove into this but from what I remember the speculation with gut length has to do with metabolic tradeoff. If pandas don't get that tradeoff with the food they eat then they'll probably keep their current gut length. Or they might make a different tradeoff (slower peristalsis, more gut surface area)

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    But Pandas are bears and haven't changed much. They eat plants and their guts have not even evolved to do so yet. They are a wonder.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    They stopped eating meat 3 million years ago. That's longer ago than the appearance of the first animal of the genus Homo.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago*

    Sure but their digestive system is still that of a carnivore. And they are still classified as carnivora. And where do you get 3 million years I could find a couple thousand years.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, but Pandas aren't herbivores, they're vegetarians. They're too slow and clumsy to actually hunt prey, so the only thing they can catch is bamboo (which is the fastest growing plant, so I guess that's something...sort of...). Anyway, the point is, Pandas as a species are from a family of predators, and they would absolutely eat meat if you gave it to them.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Pandas stopped eating meat about 3 million years ago. That's before the first being of the genus Homo appeared. Not Homo Sapiens (that was 300 000 years ago), but Homo Habilis (2.5mio years ago).

    If evolution can take us from something that's barely an ape to humans in that time frame, you'd expect that it can fix an omnivour's digestive system to work with plants.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    My old biology teacher used to say, "evolution only works as well as it needs to." Rabbits digestive systems are so inefficient they have to eat their own shit just to get enough nutrients. Hyena clitoris are so large they sometimes suffocate their offspring during birth. You're mouth is full of vestigial molars that will likely require surgery in your lifetime. None of those things matter, as long as your genes are successfully being passed down effectively

    Panda's have a digestive system that's not well suited to their diet, and they've adapted to that mostly through behavioral changes. Since they don't have kind of stomachs that efficiently digest plant matter (like a cow's four-chamber stomach), they're constantly hunting for different types of bamboo to get the nutrients they need. They eat young bamboo shoots of one species in the spring, then migrate to higher elevations to get the shoots of another. Both shoots lack calcium, so they migrate again in late summer to get more mature plants calcium-rich leaves.

    One weird physical adaptation they've developed is in their pregnancies. They mate in the springtime, but fetuses require lots of calcium to develop, so females embryos basically get, "paused," neither developing or dying, until later in the season when they have more calcium in their diet.

    Anyway, I guess my point is that evolution did fix the pandas digestive system to work with plants. It's just that, like most of evolution's fixes, it's a solution that's barely held together by duct tape and hope, and it could fall apart at any minute.

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  • [–] -4 points 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Humans are predatory animals.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    By far. We didn't get to be #1 by fucking around, and we didn't get to be #1 without all that dominating evolution lingering around. We're so good at it, we're predators to ourselves because there's no prey left to dominate. Every other species dies farmed or as a hobby.

    But I can say, that if I were die be prey to something, I'd rather it be to a human. Everything else starts eating you before you're even dead lol.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Birds? No. Though, even on the side they do often have a tilt toward frontal in a lot of predatory birds. It could be argued...

    Birds of prey absolutely have their eyes positioned on the front of their heads. It's most obvious in owls, since they have the largest eyes and wider faces, but all of them have front-facing eyes for binocular vision.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Most primates eat fruit or leaves, but have forward facing eyes because they need depth perception for climbing/jumping, not for hunting.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (3 children)

    Squirrels have eyes on the sides of their heads and they're pretty fucking good at climbing and jumping. Next theory ...

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    If a squirrel falls they're probably not going to squish as hard as a monkey. Lots of scavengers also have forward facing eyes (ex racoons) and pandas notably have forward facing eyes and are herbivorous.

    I think the climbing and jumping theory is better than the predator theory on account that it explains why large aquatic animals aren't selected for close frontal eyes.

    Plus many predators (cats notably) do climb and jump. Humans and monkeys also have werd postures that might lead to them falling over easier.

    In reality its probably never just one pressure that leads to these kind of evolutions.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    You don't need a unified theory of why animals have binocular vision.

    The biggest threat to a primate isn't always felines, it's often other primates. Judging distance to your target is a very beneficial trait for survival if you need to fight them. Which means if you need to survive other primates, it is beneficial to be able to judge distance to other primates. Even if you're not a predator.

    Gorillas might be herbivores. But they are excellent at fighting eachother. And a dead gorilla can't reproduce.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Bats also have forward facing eyes I think (correct me on this please!), but most of them aren't carnivorous. They eat fruits and bugs and stuff.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    They eat fruits and bugs and stuff.

    Well, if they hunt bugs, they are predators, no?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Predators yes, carnivores no. Things that eat bugs are insectivores.

    Honestly though, almost no mammals are purely carnivorous, herbivorous, or insectivorous. The majority of species will opportunistically eat what is available.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (5 children)

    Invertebrates? No. All out

    I invite you to meet the awesome jumping spider, whose eyes are very especially needed set up to be forward-facing for depth perception for their jumps, and who hunt other spiders, as well as the wolf spider, who are also a hunting (as opposed to web) spider.

    In fact, you can use the chart of spider eye layouts to pretty much identify whether you're looking at a spider who builds webs and waits or a spider who hunts:

     a drawing of different spider faces to their names

    Anyone with two big forward-facing eyes is probably looking around for their next meal; the rest are building a web, trapdoor, or taking some other approach.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    Had a bunch of wolf spiders in the last shop i worked at as a welder. They have eye shine like cats and alligators. It was always easy to tell the wolf spiders from black widows even behind a dusty welding machine because you can see the little wolf spider eyes looking back at you.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Also crabs. I mean, their eyes are often on stalks and more mobile than mammalian eyes, and they're compound, so they have a very wide field of view, but they're still often basically in front, and they do apparently provide depth cues for hunting thanks to this.

    https://www.jneurosci.org/content/38/31/6933

    It also occurred to me to look up about dragonflies, and it seems they mostly hunt dorsally (which is a pretty viable option if you're flying). BUT I found this article about Damselflies, which notes that they rely on binocular overlap and line up their prey in front of them. Which is pretty cool.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219316641

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago*

    Convergent evolution has more to do with environment and trophic structure than it has to do with lineage. Any animal that can produce a complex eye can have similar evolutionary pressure given similar environments unless there's some other stronger pressure.

    Animals low to the ground or water often have slitted eyes (including goats who spend a of time with their heads down)

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (9 children)

    Besides humans, aren't most apes prey animals?

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    What do you mean by prey animals? Animals that prey on others or are you calling them prey themselves? And just because an animal is a predator doesn't mean there aren't larger predators that will kill and eat them. Ultimately most apes are omnivores who eat fruit and berries, along with leaves and other shit, but will eat meat and have been known to prey on animals, yet it's not their main source of food. They're not apex predators but they aren't actively prey.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    The same holds true for a lot of animals. There aren't many purely "vegan" animals. A horse will snack a mouse too if it gets the opportunity.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Plus evolutionary history shows plenty of examples of animals switching from pure carnivore to pure herbivore to omnivores in between, and back the other direction. All birds are descended from a common carnivorous ancestor, but plenty of birds today subsist mostly on seeds or fruit.

    If there is a lot of available biomass to be eaten, nature will find a way and some animal is going to fill that niche. Many of the folivores (herbivores specializing in digesting leaves) that descended from carnivores have to deal with the low nutrient/calorie density of their foods by just eating a lot of it, and have varying levels of microbial symbiosis for helping with that digestion.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Nature has proven over and over again that it doesn't like neat categories :)

    Evolution happens and it follows whatever works, and it certainly doesn't care about any clever categories and rules we humans come up with.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I am using the same definitions as the meme

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Ah, I guess you are but you put it in a different place in your sentence compared to the comic, which confused me at first as it can be interpreted both ways with how you wrote it. Either way, the rest of my comment should still be relevant.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    I don't think anything is preying upon gorillas, the biggest predators for chimps are chimps and humans, though young ones are taken by birds too

    Humans in the wild are prey to crocodile, big cats, bears, wolves and young ones from an even longer list

    Humans and chimpanzees are definitely predators. Humans who lived through the recent ice age outside the tropics were pure carnivores as no edible plants grow on glaciers; all the big animals and most of the dangerous ones went extinct just after humans got to an area

    Bonobos eat fruit. Not much eats them

    The apes are all pretty good at defending themselves and are their own worst enemy

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    A lot of non mammals other organs to help them perceive. Even aquatic mammals like whales have echolocation. That's probably why the front facing rule doesn't apply universally to all animals.

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  • [–] 45 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    Last time I saw this kind of comment/meme someone pointed out that dragons are usually depicted with eyes on the sides of their head. What hunts them, I wonder

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  • [–] 32 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    That's like how in dnd lore the tarrasque, basically the biggest, scariest monster, is always depicted with big spikes on its back. Animals evolve spikes like that to ward off predators. That means something at least used to hunt tarrasques

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  • [–] 30 points 11 months ago

    Actually they develop in its juvenile state when they are vulnerable to more mundane predators but are then retained for sexual selection in adulthood.

    There is only one tarrasque in existence, resulting in it taking its sexual frustration out on level 20 adventuring parties and parties that keep making fun of the lore- uh, history- of the world they grew up in.

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago

    That's if sight is your primary sense for hunting / evasion, right?

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago* (6 children)

    It's not the question if the eyes on the side or in the front, it's about the capability to be able to focusing on a stereoscopic vision to be able to calculate the distances to the prey or not. Side eyes increase the field of vision, which can be advantageous for fleeing animals, but does not exclude that predators can also use it to strategically locate themselves better in the environment. But it is true that animals with frontal vision are generally predatory.

    Well....

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    There are lots of reasons to have binocular frontal vision. Redundancy, differing info for optic flow, sensitivity, reducing the frontal blind spot, compensating for retinal blind spots, higher frontal resulution, seeing around things, depth perception...

    Most of there are good for predators, but predation isn't the only reason to have them.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    They also have to orient themselves in a truely 3D landscape, unlike terrestrial predators who hunt on basically a 2D plane. Birds of prey (with the exception of owls) also don't have front-facing eyes, probably for similar reasons* (and they're stereoscopic vision also works a bit different I think with very different points of focus).

    *see comments below

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Wrong, all birds of prey have front-facing eyes, not only owls

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    Haha, I'm not a bird person and didn't bother to look it up. Thanks for the correction!

    Although they still don't look fully front-facing like e.g. in cats, right?

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    Well, better as front-faces, the capability to focus on a point in front, since a 3D vision is essential for a predator, to be able to accurately calculate distances. Insects and arthropods often combine side and frontal vision, if they are predators, obtaining a vision in practically 360º, for example dragonflies and also jumping spiders or hunters, these usually have two large eyes in front and 6 smaller side eyes. Chameleons solve this with eyes that can move independently, only focusing on the front before the attack. In small animals a wide field of vision is necessary, even if they are predators, since they themselves appear on the menu of others.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Hm, in small animals my previous point of a 2D vs 3D space is also valid. Large land prey animals "only" have to look from side to side to spot predators. Small animals have to look in all 3 dimensions, like sharks

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