Go car lobby go. Mad Max Fury Road on Ontario streets. As Dougie says, we're going in full throttle! There's no slowing this fucker down. Everything from broken down jalopies, impossible to read worn out license plates, overly tinted windows, fake out of jurisdiction plates, and optional stop signs. Stay off the sidewalk ya stupid pedestrians. "What did the driver look like that ran you down? " "I don't know, he needed his tints."
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Ah yes, the "safety studies" where they pick a 200 m stretch of road and then conclude that because speed has reduced in that area because of the camera, that it means safety now.
Ignoring what happens when vehicles are outside of the capture range... Also ignoring the heavy increase in collisions at those intersections.
Where did you see that they increase collisions?
I've been following traffic science for decades. Look into it, there's a heavy increase in collisions where cameras are present. And furthermore, credible analysis shows that to decrease speeding and increase safety (particularly at intersections) the main improvements are found by synchronizing lights and extending yellow times. But instead what happens is those underlying issues are ignored so the tax can be gathered and "cherry" jobs can be created for former policy-makers as happened in Winnipeg. It's not about safety. It has a safety component, but as with most things, when you scratch and look below the surface, it's a much more complex issue.
I personally feel, and you're free to disagree, that the installation of a camera is an admission that real safety measures are being actively ignored. Shrink the number of lanes? Narrow them? Traffic-calming measures? More roundabouts and fewer timed lights? Nah, just slap a camera there.
Can you link some studies to start with? I am curious because I haven't heard of any increase of collisions in my area and the speed has definitely dropped
Not parent commenter but just to add to the discussion, a higher number of minor crashes like low speed rear ending is still preferable over a small amount of life altering/ending crashes, and this is yet another way in which slower speeds makes a huge difference
As someone who has studied traffic engineering in school and works in road design, I'd be very curious what studies these were.
Look into it, there’s a heavy increase in collisions where cameras are present.
Only place I've seen this data was as an example in school of what not to do - several states had low yellow times (1-2s shorter than Ontario's), and added red light cameras at large, wide intersections that took longer to cross than the yellow timer, meaning if you entered on a green you could theoretically get hit with a red light violation. But those studies were late 90s, early 00s.
Every piece of data I've seen shows either a reduction in speed (even post camera removal), or minimal change after removal.
Note that studies need to reflect current state cameras in Ontario - only allowed to be used in school zones, and need to have signage present indicating their use. They're not used specifically at intersections.
Additionally, the fees for traffic cameras go back to road redesign budget, which is used (on the projects I've worked on) to provide traffic calming measures like narrower lanes, AT facilities, etc. Cameras should be a stop gap measure, and are vastly preferable to an increase in the polices budget to have increased traffic enforcement presence.
I just want to add that "Look into it" is never a good argument; either you know of a study that shows this, in which case just link it (you're the one with the burden of proof here), or don't comment about imaginary data.
While I do agree with your sentiment that street safety is a more complex issue that the small subset of enforcement that cameras provide, you seems to making perfect the enemy of the good.
"the installation of a camera is an admission that real safety measures are being actively ignored."
While this statement may hold true for many different examples, security cameras in a store or in a public space do provide a level of "security", similar to how a officer or a on-duty security guard may provide a level of "security" when on premise. But, crime prevention starts at the social level of a society with access to education, healthcare, housing, and meaningful fulfilling work.
North America has IMO some of the worst roadway classifications, or lack thereof. We have residential and city streets designed like throughways with six lanes of traffic. At the same time we have roads designed like streets with multiple driveways and points of conflict between pedestrians, cyclists, and cars.
Traffic calming measures are ideally the end goals with complete street redesigns to actually match the streets intended use and posted limits.
Now cycling Infrastructure such as dedicated cycling lanes and intersection's with dedicated saftey curbs ie. "bike bananas" are a traffic claiming measure. They shrink car lanes to prevent speeding, and actively promoting safer streets within cities and towns. But somehow Dougie seems to be both against traffic cameras and any type of city street redesign that negates the need for said cameras.
Now ideal the small "revenue" that a traffic camera may produce is intended to go back into the roadway its self. Where traditional tickets from a officer may go into the funding of the police department. Similarly like how NYC's congestion pricing for example, where all revenue goes back into the cities transit and infrastructure.
Don't tell anyone but there is a sure fire way to beat these cameras and not pay any money. Not many people know about this but if you don't speed, they can't fine you.
Yeah but if people can't do 60 in a 30 school-zone then they won't get the next red light 15 seconds faster.
This is the thing I fail to ever hear drivers admit. Okay, going 5 km over the limit, in the grand scheme, isn't a big deal, but then all the same, why go 5 over in the first place? What tangible benefit does going 5 over give anyone? Just goes to show how spoiled drivers are, how pained they are to let go of the gas pedal for 5 seconds.
Seriously, when these cameras first came out I was annoyed because I got dinged for going 57 in a 50 in a school zone, except it was noon on Easter Sunday and there's was not a single person to be seen.
Even with that blatantly stupid application, I'm still not against them. If you are used to seeing them, you're probably also used to seeing people roar up to the sign that announces them, jam on the brakes, and then speed up once they're past the camera.
At least those jackasses are forced to slow down for a few hundred meters.
Yeah, I've been fined for speeding and it was my own stupid fault. People who go on about it being a tax on motorists are just whiny entitled arseholes.
Thats not a stupid application. Schools shouldn't have lower speeds only during school hours. The amenities the school provides such as greenspace and playgrounds means it attracts pedestrians and children regardless of time. Noon on easter sunday could mean time to walk the dog, go to a playground with cousins, or walk down the street returning from church or a restaurant.
Thats not a stupid application. Schools shouldn't have lower speeds only during school hours.
They do in Australia
The amenities the school provides such as greenspace and playgrounds means it attracts pedestrians and children regardless of time.
That's also ileagle in much of Australia, trespass AFAIK.
Doug is a fucking idiot, that much is clear to anyone who isn't a fucking idiot.
My city has been aggressively installing these cameras too, and while I don't love that the money is mostly going to private companies I think they have an impact on slowing people down. Here's an easy way to avoid being ticketed - when you enter an area that's got these cameras, set your cruise control to the speed limit.
I know that road design is the best way to calm traffic but I have very little optimism that we'll see that anytime soon.
I was going down Huntclub in Ottawa at 4:30am to get my friend to the airport for a 6am flight. For a visual, it was down just west of Conroy. The road switches to a 60 zone from an 80kph one but nothing changes, not a damn thing, and I even thought “hey, I really don’t want a problem right now so I’m gunna do 79kph in this 80kph zone. Oh hey a speed camera, I wonder if people have been doing 100+kph down he-“ and then a flash. They want a $120 for that so I requested a trial.
The other one was in the Glebe. This road that is 5 cars wide without any paint is a 30kph zone, now, and so I’m going 45 in what I thought was a 40 zone and that we’re all good and boom, away we go with another one. The photo is comical because my little car is just a sea of asphalt and not exactly in a tight place. I paid that one anyway.
Ph, and the time I was doing 114kph in the leftmost lane on the highway coming back from the Brossard Ikea and got nailed there, too!
The speed cameras don’t actually do anything or keep anyone safe since the drivers are already exceeding the limit and the fines don’t in the mail come for two weeks. We need to stop pretending as if 60kph zones on roads built like 400 series highways are worth a damn and actually start building better.
I respect your experiences, but we have a lot of data that shows these cameras actually do save lives.
Sure, as the shittiest possible option. We also have a lot of data that shows if we genuinely gave a shit about people’s lives we wouldn’t be investing big wide roads. If the city of Ottawa wants to save lives it would expand public transit but when ridership is low they cut busses and routes because the concept of induced demand is something they refuse to pay attention to. The city elected a guy who claimed there was a “war on cars” because apparently his oppenent’s plan to install bike lanes was a bridge too far. They don’t give a rat’s ass about people’s safety and using that as a justification is insultingly hypocritical and/or ignorant of them.
I’m just getting very tired of every solution to the car problem being doing anything but actually addressing it in truly meaningful ways.
I can't help but think those millions could have been more effectively spent on chicanes or other traffic calming measures.
In my area they use the revenue from the cameras to fund those kinds of improvements.
That's the ideal resolution, assuming they get removed or relocated once the infrastructure has been updated.
Unfortunately many municipalities will grow comfortable with the money brought in by these cameras and decide not to make improvements that would eliminate the revenue stream.
These photo radars are being administrated by a third-party private business, whose taking home the lion's share of the fine profits. "At no extra cost to the municipality"
wait so it works... people reduced speeds considerably, and compliance to the speed limit nearly doubled... why is he against it?
This dunce can't leave the local governments alone. Does he want to be the mayor of every city in Ontario, or can the local mayors do their job?
Cameras had reduced average driving speeds in six study areas by between 13 and 26 km/h, while increasing speed limit compliance by up to 85 per cent.
Ahhh, there's the issue. Ford wants more roads, highways, more dead cyclists and less speed limit compliance.
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