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[–] 33 points 1 year ago (1 child)

That's it! Uninviting all the mice from the next BBQ.

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  • [–] 107 points 1 year ago (40 children)

    mice were fed three types of red meat – pork, beef and mutton

    I assume most mice don't regularly eat large livestock.

    Are mice evolved to eat red meat? The article doesn't really say.

    However, there were limitations to the study. As well as it being a mice model [...]

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    Was the first thing I thought of. “Standard diets,” vs non-standard pretty quickly calls into question how much we need to account for the divergence from typical. If I go to India (I’m from the USA), there will be meals that aren’t standard for me that might cause distress that are nonetheless fine for the local population.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago

    In the animal study, mice were fed three types of red meat – pork, beef and mutton – every day for two weeks. Then, the researchers triggered colitis (a model for IBD) using a chemical called dextran sulfate sodium (DSS).

    They definitely aren't evolved to eat dextran sulfate sodium.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Yes, mice eat red meat.

    Mice are omnivores and are opportunistic eaters. They’ll eat whatever they can find.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    Mice do not eat that much meat of other mammals.

    Giving an over abundance of it, for a long time, will shock the mouse.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    What do you think happens when a mouse finds a large carcass in the wild? They just take a few nibbles and then go "that's enough, time for some greens now. Gotta keep my diet balanced". No, they gorge themselves on the opportunistic meal and will return each night until it's gone or inedibly rotten.

    The study is fine. The conclusions, interesting. The sudden 'mouse diet & gut-study experts' disagreeing because they don't like it, reminds me of Facebook tbh.

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  • [–] [S] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (17 children)

    Humans historically, also didn't eat much meat up until very recently. More recent research suggests our ancient human ancestors were eating far more plants than meat

    EDIT: For example:

    Here we present the isotopic evidence of pronounced plant reliance among Late Stone Age hunter-gatherers from North Africa (15,000–13,000 cal BP), predating the advent of agriculture by several millennia

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-024-02382-z

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Primates in general are designed to eat red meat. Chimps, our closest cousin, go on regular hunts against other primates, and eat them

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    My point is that it was way more rare than what people's diets look like today. Not zero but not dominant. Wide reliance on plants is even true before modern agriculture. For example:

    Here we present the isotopic evidence of pronounced plant reliance among Late Stone Age hunter-gatherers from North Africa (15,000–13,000 cal BP), predating the advent of agriculture by several millennia

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-024-02382-z

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I myself am a victim of the modern diet, and lack of exercise. I almost died of high cholesterol and other related factors, before I started to eat better and be physically active.

    I’m a firm believer in a varied diet, and that most people should have a less meaty intake.

    Just, we are designed to be hunters and eat red meat

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    My parents fed me red meat for almost every dinner I can recall growing up. I’m early 30s and my cholesterol is very high. I was able to drop my cholesterol significantly in one month by changing my diet to mostly vegan with chicken and fish once or twice a week. Switched my morning eggs out to egg whites. Cooked in avocado oil instead of butter.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    That’s very impressive. Dietary factors generally account for a very small proportion of blood LDL. Your diet must have been very poor and you likely have some known genetic mutations which greatly exacerbate the issue.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    This isn't quite accurate, dietary interventions can have huge impact on LDL.

    Seed Oils (Industrial oils from processing plant seeds, or vegetable oils) - are known to dramatically lower LDL... Oreo Cookie Treatment Lowers LDL Cholesterol More Than High-Intensity Statin therapy in a Lean Mass Hyper-Responder on a Ketogenic Diet: A Curious Crossover Experiment

    Ketogenic ABF Can increase LDL from the population average considerably in a few months

    A long term standard western diet can increase LDL through glycation and oxidation damage to circulating LDL, preventing the liver from reusing that LDL and producing more LDL (so there is a build up of usable LDL and damaged LDL showing up as elevated LDL)

    All that being said, LDL, and more generally Cholesterol - IS NOT A DISEASE. You would die if you didn't have any, the body will produce it on demand if its not consumed in the diet. The link between LDL (undamaged) and heart disease (the lipid heart hypothesis) is not based on repeatable science, and isn't holding up with modern scrutiny

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Interesting personal assumptions but my diet was quite healthy aside from the daily eggs and meat consumption. As I mentioned in my comment, I replaced my dietary proteins from red meat often to red meat seldom and replaced it with plant proteins. When you consume high cholesterol foods, you’re likely going to have high blood LDL. That’s just physics. The study you linked even says this (as well as the fact that more and better studies are needed for more precise conclusions).

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    When you consume high cholesterol foods, you’re likely going to have high blood LDL. That’s just physics.

    No, that’s not how it works. Please read the paper I cited. That’s like saying we can breathe water because H2O has O in it. Human bodies are very complex. A strict diet can reduce LDL by around 8-15%. Nowhere near the dramatic decline you indicated. LDL is mostly determined by genetics, with 40-60% heritable. Other causes are related to genetic mutations, excess weight, and metabolic issues like diabetes. Less important factors include menopause, age, hypothyroidism, and certain medications. You likely had a comorbidity. From the paper:

    Conclusions: In typical British diets replacing 60% of saturated fats by other fats and avoiding 60% of dietary cholesterol would reduce blood total cholesterol by about 0.8 mmol/l (that is, by 10-15%), with four fifths of this reduction being in low density lipoprotein cholesterol.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    When you consume high cholesterol foods, you’re likely going to have high blood LDL.

    It's not a dose independent response, if you eat only cholesterol (like only egg yolks for a month), you will find adding even more egg yolks does not increase the LDL, the excess gets processed into other nutrients or excreted. The feedback mechanisms in regulating LDL are very good, its just a optimization that food cholesterol can be used for circulating LDL, if you didn't eat any cholesterol at all your body would still make LDL.

    More generally Cholesterol, and specifically LDL, is not a disease.

    artificially lowering LDL is not actually good for your health. Its far more impactful to measure atherosclerotic risk directly with plaque imaging (CAC for example).

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    This is just not true in the bigger picture of human evolution. That paper focuses on humans in North Africa 15,000–13,000  years ago which is a very tiny snapshot in time and geography.

    Eating meat is a major part of what separated archaic humans from other primates; it is theorized that the calories from meat is part of what helped us grow our larger brains. Homo Habilis was eating meat 2.6 million years ago, well before Homo Sapiens even existed. Homo Erectus hunted to the point of wiping out many large herbivores over a 1.5 million year time period. They are meat regularly enough for tapeworms to speciate specifically for us as hosts.

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  • [–] [S] -2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Humans and human ancestors have also been consuming large quantities of plants for far earlier than that. Here's another paper looking 780,000 years ago finding a wide amount of plants consumed

    we demonstrate that a wide variety of plants were processed by Middle Pleistocene hominins at the site of Gesher Benot Ya’aqov in Israel (33° 00’ 30” N, 35° 37’ 30” E), at least 780,000 y ago. These results further indicate the advanced cognitive abilities of our early ancestors, including their ability to collect plants from varying distances and from a wide range of habitats and to mechanically process them using percussive tools.

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2418661121

    I am not saying that hunting didn't happen (it definitely did). I am just saying that more recent research is painting a very different picture of the level of consumption of it

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If a species is straight up annihilating multiple species merely through predation, it's not statistically possible for it to be a small amount of meat. A wide variety of plants eaten, as pointed out in that paper, doesn't mean it was mostly a plant diet - if anything, that means it's likely humans primarily only ate plants while traveling during a hunt.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    yes, of course we ate lots of plants as well, that was never disputed. We were hunters and gatherers. The point is meat has absolutely been a significant part of our diets for millions of years (the exact ratio depending on the environment humans found themselves in). it is well documented by many direct lines of evidence as i laid out above.

    I am not saying that hunting didn’t happen (it definitely did).

    it didn't just "happen" like once in a while. we are/were probably the best hunters ever seen on planet earth. we basically wiped out global megafauna over the last 1.5 million years.

    I am just saying that more recent research is painting a very different picture of the level of consumption of it

    what exactly do you mean by "very different picture"? that's an extremely vague statement that could mean almost anything.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Isotopic testing shows that early humans primarily subsisted on herbivores and small game, including fish. Please refer to this study for Europe.

    Early modern humans also appear to have regularly hunted large herbivores (55–57), but there is also evidence for the use of small game, including fish at some of these sites (15, 16).

    Or this study, also from Nature, again studying the first modern humans and late Neandertals in Europe:

    based on stable isotopes, the mammoth seems to contribute the major part of the dietary protein of humans in a time range between 50,000 and 30,000 years ago and across wide areas spanning from SW France11 to the Crimean Peninsula53 (Fig. 6, Supplementary Fig. 5–8).

    It is inaccurate to state that humans did not eat much meat prior to modern times.

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  • [+] -20 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Are mice evolved to eat red meat?

    They haven't. So haven't we. 😄

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    You mean a few million years of evolution couldn't completely redesign our digestive system? Weak bruh.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    We haven't been eating like this for a few million years, humans mostly subsisted off of whatever they could get. Eating red meat every day, or even every week, is very modern.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Fair, but our guts have already evolved to not being able to eat rotten meat. They’re apples and oranges, but still a relevant point.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Homo primates (archaic humans like Homo Erectus) have been hunting prolifically for about 2 million years. That’s part of what makes us Homo; the large calorie surplus from big game hunting allowed our brains to grow larger.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    More modern research does not suggest this made up most of the consumption for humans even before agriculture. For instance,

    Our results unequivocally demonstrate a substantial plant-based component in the diets of these hunter-gatherers. This distinct dietary pattern challenges the prevailing notion of high reliance on animal proteins among pre-agricultural human groups

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-024-02382-z

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    afaik it's inconclusive, and just as likely that big game was rare and supplemented by many other forms of hunting and gathering. It's a lot easier to spear a fish or steal some eggs than to spend a whole day tracking down an elk until it collapsed from exhaustion.

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  • [–] 55 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Look I'm all for the idea that we eat too much meat currently and all, but are mice really good analogs for humans in this instance? I'm not a scientist of any sort, so I really don't know, but it seems to me like a creature that doesn't naturally eat, like, any red meat would be a bad analog here.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Humans also don't generally eat poison. But the mice in this study were poisoned with DSS after eating meat. Maybe meat is not the real culprit here...

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I mean alcohol is poison, we have consumed that substance for longer than we(globally) have been eating tomatoes, potatoes, coffee and refined sugar.

    Multiple cultures around the world have independently invented some form of alcohol

    And other species also routinely ingests poison for pleasure.

    Dolphins getting high on pufferfish toxins, Elephants getting absolutely shit faced on fermented fruits such as amarula

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    [–] 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    For me this is a case of picking the lesser poison. I have IBD and FODMAPs give me major issues. This means most fruit and vegetables, plus dairy and wheat, cause major issues. Meat, including red meat, is one of the few foods which don’t cause me intestinal pain, bloating, and diarrhea. Studies indicate a not insignificant proportion of the population have issues with FODMAPs, and they also tend to fare much better with meat.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I used to have mediocre IBS symptoms. Never to the point of being debilitating, but such that I was always aware where the closest toilet was and got anxious if it was too far away.

    There was an article about studies being done on using common antihistamin to treat IBS that helped in many cases. Tried it and never looked back. That pretty much solved my bowel ussues.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Thanks for the suggestion. Antihistamines help when symptoms are caused by histamine or histadine rich foods. Some people have overactive mast cell activity or produce too little DAO. You could also try DAO supplements. Which antihistamine works for you?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's fine, we already know how to cure any disease in mice.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    What if I eat the red meat without stuffing it into a mouse first?

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    They intentionally chemically triggered IBD in the mice, how the fuck is this conclusive of anything?

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago

    Next time I meet up with my mouse friends I'll be sure to let them know.

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  • [+] 46 points 1 year ago* (10 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    At the same time, a lot of places aren't going to let scientists test on something closer to humans without something clearly showing a reason for it. The ethics board would wonder why they didn't try it on mice first, and wouldn't approve anything else.

    That they found an effect in mice would be good justification to move up a step. If there was no effect, then that would be the end of that.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I assume you went through the actual published article and have the necessary expertise to come to this "bullshit" conclusion.

    I don't really know enough about mouse (and human) gut biome to know what the similarities and caveats are.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Not what the research is about though, but good doing your own research

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  • [+] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    You clearly don't get it. This is not about what they eat.

    If you mix two chemicals, they react the same way. It doesn't matter if this happens inside a mouse or a human.

    Their reaction to it might be different, which is what the article ponts out. But the gut biome still compares to what's inside a human, so if you introduce something like red meat, the measured reaction inside will be similar, even if it's not in their diet, like you shallowly point out.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago
    [–] 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I'm not a mouse, and humans have been eating red meat (whenever they could get it) for literally aeons.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Sure, but they had meat maybe once or twice per week. Nowadays we have meat five times per day.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago*

    They ate protein moderately and only enough to satiate their appetite. But if they were using storage methods ranging from hot springs to drying and fermentation they were eating red meat daily for months. Remaining meat was given to dogs (which eat unlimited amounts of protein). Fat was what humans ate in vast quantities. They'd go to extreme lengths to eat all sources of fat and marrow.

    Although this study though doesn't make quite the same point that you're making.

    The researchers artificially caused IBD in the mice by injecting them with a compound that damages their mucosal layer in the gut.

    So what they're saying is that once you have IBD you might want to eat a low protein diet. This is consistent with diets that were used to treat diarrhea (which suggests ibd) such as the BRAT diet.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I didn't know we had so many PhD level gastroenterologists on Lemmy, I'm glad we've attracted such an educated community and we're not filled with reactionary nerds who vaguely remember their freshman zoology class.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    When inconvenient truths arrive about people's preferred habits, they often become instant field experts.

    As an aside, mice are opportunistic omnivores - this information can be found with ease. They will eat whatever the fuck they can find and will gladly feed on a cow's carcass. This added context makes the instant field expert comments claiming they're herbivores and that 'this study is obviously bad' even more embarrassing.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Where's that old Twitter bot that would append in mice to reports of these bullshit studies?

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Does the Lemmy post title not have "in mice" in it for you? I added it to the title of the post to clarify this. It should show as

    Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in study on mice

    Whereas the original title of the article was:

    Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Let me get this straight. Herbivores shouldn't eat meat‽ Holy crap! this changes everything!

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