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[–] 341 points 1 year ago (35 children)

Most people don’t even read the error messages. They’re never gonna read a whole manual.

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  • [–] 172 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Most people were conditioned by more "user-friendly" systems to ignore the content of error messages because only an expert can make sense of "Error: 0x8000000F Unknown Error". So they don't even try, and that's how they put themselves in a Yes, do as I say! situation.

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  • [–] 94 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    It’s not even obscure, context dependent errors. I’ve had many professional system administrators not understand what “connection was closed by peer” meant.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    In the admins defense. "Closed by peer" can indicate everything from a safe closure to an unsafe closure to a server connection terminating which causes the peer to terminate.

    Like that's a fair point of confusion.

    What bugs me is when the error says something stupid specific and obvious such as JavaScript heap out of memory or dd: error writing *pathname*: No space left on device

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, but they literally couldn’t tell me if it’s a problem with the network or something else. It’s like it’s in a totally different language

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don't need to make sense of error messages. Which is good because I usually can't.

    I just need them copy/pasteable cuz that shit is going in Google and I'd rather not manually type it.

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    People who don't read error messages or do not take the time to see what is going on and just come to the technician/mechanic/doctor saying "it doesn't work" or some half-assed hypothesis piss me off so bad.

    I know that at some point we all do a little of this in our lifes, but some people don't seem to be able to read one goddamn paragraph ever.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    To be fair, techs don't usually talk to the people who can read, so they're only ever going to see idiots. There are competent people in the world, they'll just never need your help, so you don't see them.

    Last time I called tech support, it was for a Dell, and I interrupted their speech to tell them I already looked up the diagnostic. They asked which numbers were lit on the error panel to confirm I had the right diagnostic, and passed me directly to who I needed to talk to. I only called tech support because the cpu socket died and I was putting in a warranty claim, otherwise they would have never even heard from me because I could just install a new motherboard myself.

    edit: speeling

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    THIS. The people who actually read the error messages aren't going to stop there, they're going to look up said error message, find a solution on their own, and continue with their day without having to interact with another human.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    At this point, if a student brings in a laptop, explains what doesn't work, and leaves me to diagnose and fix it, I consider it a good report because it means that the student didn't get any overconfident ideas. If a student also explains what they were doing when a thing failed, I'm giving them preferential treatment.

    Then there are comp-sci students who attempted something. I had one who disassembled their laptop and tore a ribbon cable. I had one who plugged in a random mis-matched RAM stick that turned out to be busted and wondered why Windows kept crashing. I had one who completely fucked up the registry. I had one who wanted to install Ubuntu for dual booting and accidentally wiped the entire SSD.

    I would rather spend an hour babysitting their computers than an entire afternoon un-fucking something they thought they could handle. If it were up to me, I would restrict the crap out of their user accounts, but the faculty leaders insist, against empirical evidence, that they're smart enough.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Are these laptops provided by the faculty?

    In any case I do not mind so much the "I should try to fix this on my own first". If it's your own device and accept the risks/consequences. But if it is a work/university provided laptop then it makes no sense to attempt to fix it on one's own.

    I can feel your pain trying to fix/repair something you have to figure out what kind of stupid stuff was done to the device.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    They're provided by the faculties at the university's expense, but the students have admin rights and very little supervision. Two fairly expensive laptops have been stolen by exchange students during the three years I've worked there -- they simply never bothered to return them, and we only realized it during the yearly inventory check. But fixing the asset tracking system (or implementing one in the first place) is not what I'm getting paid for.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago*

    I'm more surprised that your school doesn't go by the "Wipe and reimage" policy. Most every school now uses some form of cloud service. No reason to spend time troubleshooting when you can just do a stock image and have the student sign in again

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    but the faculty leaders insist, against empirical evidence, that they’re smart enough.

    To be fair, you're only seeing the dumb ones.

    If that user-installed RAM stick had worked, they wouldn't have come to you about it.

    If they had installed their dual boot Ubuntu setup correctly, they wouldn't come to you about it.

    Presumably, there are a lot of smart students out there fucking with their laptops without breaking them, which you never know about because they never bring those laptops to you to fix. And locking down the computers would prevent those smart students from being able to do the things they want.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    I guess I forgot to point out (six months ago, well done) that these are free loaners provided by the university. Usually high-end, current-generation hardware. They can be smart on their own devices, that's neither my concern nor my responsibility, but these are not theirs to disembowel.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    What about the fucking manual?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    And because people don't read error messages, many applications/sites/etc don't even put them, or if they do they either don't have any public facing documentation to actually figure out what that code means, or they do and it might as well be nothing

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago*

    that's why any manual worth their salt has a "quick start" section at the beginning (I say this knowing most man pages fail at this or put it at the end which is super unhelpful)

    Just give me common uses and flags, you can have your more indepth stuff at the end

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  • I recently had a coworker who would frequently get an error message while completing their time card. The message was slightly cryptic, something like "invalid cost center", but no indication (in the message) of which line(s). This happened so often, that when they would call me to complain that they were getting an error, I usually already knew what error they were getting, but for some reason, they could never remember the steps to find & correct it and had to call me every time.

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  • [–] 144 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    try to RTFM for Microsoft...lol shits updated too much and all the old information is still there and outdated. convoluted mess of shit is all they are

    still, RTFM...always

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    In order to RTFM one must first WTFM

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago

    And FTFM. Find the fucking manual.

    And perhaps TTFM. Translate the fucking manual either from broken chinese-english or the tech-lingo + missing context information which is almost every manpage on Linux, making it nearly useless for the average user unless you got hours and hours of time to understand all the adjacent concepts and commands.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    This is a problem with more than just Microsoft. Any software (game, application, library, whatever) that has had many years of updates some of which are breaking, will have this problem with docs.

    Oh you are using version 5.5.24 of xyzlib? All these docs are a mixture of stuff when 4.2.57 was out and stuff someone tried to update when 7.5.14 released.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    It used to be so much worse. The ms docs used to be very spotty, sometimes plain wrong. Apparently now they're a bit of a mess but they're way more complete and, mostly to the point. Luckily I moved away from their stuff ages ago so I don't have to deal with it anymore.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Part of the fun of buying a game was getting to RTFM on the way home.

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I once read the first 3 chapters of the Git book and my coworkers think I'm some kind of Git wizard

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    One of the first things I did at my first full time job (while my very under prepared boss was looking for "junior-dev-friendly" tasks for me to work) was go to git-scm.com and just read through all the man pages I could. I spent a few days doing that, then my boss asked me to create a PowerPoint and present what I learned to the team. It was instantly apparent that I was the only one who knew anything beyond git commit -a on the team at that point, and I was promptly appointed the "title" of "source control SME". I've been heading up version control best practices for every team I've been on since (which is scary because the git cli has changed quite a bit since I read all those man pages but I haven't had a chance to go back and refresh my knowledge).

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  • [–] 98 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I mean this is true and yes but in an age where documentation is increasingly terrible, the idea of a service manual for something you bought is basically a foreign concept, and half the shit you buy doesn’t come with a meaningful manual does it really apply the same way?

    Like sure, knowing the post error codes on my motherboard or linux stuff is possible because it’s documented. But the appliance example? That is increasingly false and those manuals are increasingly becoming 5 page idiot guides: “here is how to turn the system on and off, here is how to turn heat up/down, contact authorized vendor for issues” and if you don’t do that then you void your warranty. Any more robust documentation is locked to “authorized vendors” and costs $$$, if it even exists (and doesn’t just say “replace system when it stops working correctly)

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I partly disagree with what you say. The subscription appliance garbage absolutely do lock advanced user manuals behind paywalls. But it isn't not rare (at least right now) to still find products with good user manuals. There are usually separate documents with one being a "quick setup" and another being a full "user manual". Avoid the worst offenders and you should be okay.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Becoming increasingly rare and we are speaking on different things. You are talking about a manual that explains how to make your washing machine wash. That is important, yes, but I am talking about a manual that explains how an appliance works.

    the days of a manual explaining anything like an error code are basically dead. Name one appliance manufacturer that lists anything beyond the most basic of troubleshooting (“turn it off and back on”)

    Like go back and look at an appliance manual from the 70s/80s/maybe 90s and you will see a more robust explanation of what to do when things go wrong. The further back you go the more likely you will see parts numbers, circuit diagrams, or be able to order a service manual that has such information.

    We expect this shit level of documentation because we live in a throwaway culture that has tolerated this pisspoor level of documentation for decades. “Oh the washer isn’t working? It’s showing an E-05 error? Guess we better just go buy a new washer” or pay the manufacturer $120 for a “service charge” to find out that code means the latch sensor died and it’s a $30 part that is a simple 5 minute job except you can’t get the part because they won’t sell it to you

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's been about 15 years since I did appliance servicing. But back then many of the dryers would still include a circuit diagram with wire color codes and a timing chart for the controller. But the fancier appliances that had digital control boards, touch panels, etc... Like LG and Samsung didn't include crap unless you paid for their service portals. But, what they had behind the pay wall was often fairly detailed with tear down instructions and even full details of circuit boards including each pinout and often even flow charts for diagnostic steps making diagnostics almost dummy proof.

    LG would even put on training and we'd get full inch to inch and a half booklets full of service details for a line of their products.

    I still would never buy an LG appliance though. There was a reason they had to provide so many service details. Their appliances might have some fancy cushy innovations. But what good are these fancy features when your fridge doesn't cool?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Yeah that’s exactly the problem. I don’t want to pay for access to a service portal to repair my appliance. I’m not a shop, I’m just some person with a busted washing machine. Just sell me the service manual as a pdf (or even better just give it to me since I already gave you a shitload of money for an appliance)

    And realistically since 2010 basically all appliances have moved heavily towards digital controls. Microcontrollers everywhere. You can still get stuff without touch controls (for now, even though it’s objectively worse for the disabled it’s easier to clean, “in” with current design trends, and most importantly it’s cheaper to manufacture at scale)

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    You are talking about a manual that explains how to make your washing machine wash. That is important, yes, but I am talking about a manual that explains how an appliance works.

    Many appliances have service manuals and wiring diagrams hidden inside their cover plates somewhere, even today.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Eh. I own a few old tools with manuals, and they actually have diagrams of the inner workings together with part numbers, some even have electrical diagrams with resistor values etc. All of the newer tools have a tiny useless "visit this website for more information" and 50% of the time it's some bs about errors 1-10: restart device, 10-20 please contact a technician because opening the tool voids your warranty. I know dipshit, I don't care about warranty cause I need the tool now or tomorrow, not in 3 months when you tell me it's "unserviceable" or "uneconomical to repair" and I have to buy a new one.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I agree with the fact that there are not thorough diagrams with part numbers and wirijg diagrams like there used to be. A part of it is the fault of the manufacturer, and a part of it is just the way things are made now. Circuit boards are not as simple as they once were to include comprehensive wiring diagrams. They could absolutely break the modules into different boards and label the boards with different part numbers, so rather than replacing a resistor you'd just have to replace that board. It's also not clear to me how many people actually have a comprehensive understanding of the item being sold.

    But there is the obvious fact that companies want you to buy another one and not repair it. It's often cheaper for them to not repair the product themselves, and just replace the entire unit. They dont keep a surplus of parts for repairs, nor do they want to spend the man power troubleshooting and fixing the issue. It's just cheaper to replace it entirely. If they themselves will just replace rather than repair why would they bother keeping detailed documentation. If anyone cared for the enviornment more than money, they'd probably do it. But we all know how that goes.

    I would also add that even previously they were prioritizing money. It was just cheaper for them to make it repairable, especially if they are going to offer some sort of warranty. It was also good for business since it made customers happy. I think at some point it became cheaper to do it the way we do now

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    and label the boards with different part numbers, so rather than replacing a resistor you’d just have to replace that board.

    Aaaand a replacement board costs 70% as much as just buying a brand new appliance that's under warranty...

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  • [–] 47 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I mean in general, "read things -> learn" is a good approach to life imo.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Too long and difficult. I'll let chat gpt tell me instead and read that between adverts on Love Island

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'll be honest, I'm guilty of using Chat GPT at times for stuff I know barely anything about and know I probably won't be able to find through research as quickly as I'd like to. I always try the old-fashioned way of using a search engine first, go through reddit and forums and stuff, but sometimes I just need to use AI for a good first pointer

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    It's not a terrible idea. ChatGPT is great at summarizing info, especially stuff you'd use manuals for. I make sure to ask it where certain info came from (so I can try to verify) OR having it explain its approach so I get it in the future.

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  • [–] 133 points 1 year ago* (27 children)

    For appliances at least, 95% of "the manual" today is useless CYA safety disclosures in 17 different languages. Manuals today rarely contain useful information.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Until you do like step one of taking an appliance apart, and realize that the real manual is marked "for technician use only", and it's hidden inside of the appliance.

    My washer and dryer both have good manuals complete with circuit diagrams under the top once i take a few screws out. My chest freezer has one taped up under the hatch where the compresser sits. My refrigerator has one hidden in the door hinge.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, my parents were about to throw out an oven that would keep shutting off. I pull it away from the wall and boom, wiring diagram. Take out the ohm meter, figure out that the resistance across the temperature probe went to near zero when steam intruded through a gap in the crimp. 5 dollar part and it was good to go for years to come (the new part was crimped in a simpler, more robust way).

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You mean actual paper manuals ester-egged inside the appliances themselves? In 2025?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago*

    It's more likely than you'd think!

    (Most new appliances come with warranties. And if the appliance breaks under warranty, the company will need to pay to send a technician to fix it. The technician may or may not be familiar with that exact appliance. Now, which would be more cost-effective for the company? A: Pay the technician's hourly rate while he spends time trying to look up the manual and the wiring diagram for this exact version and this exact revision of this exact appliance. B: Include a printed manual and wiring diagram inside the appliance's cover that the technician can quickly and efficiently locate. The company often decides Option B is more cost-effective, so they include a manual hidden inside for the warranty repair technician to find. Happily for us, that manual doesn't disappear when the warranty expires.)

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  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    The actual manual is usually hidden somewhere on it for repair techs to find. For my oven it was taped on the back.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    Yep. I needed the circuit diagram for my microwave to fix an issue with the light (kept blowing out bulbs rapidly). Turned out you have to pull it out of the top inner frame, after unscrewing the button board and top panel. Thankfully, was an easy soldering fix, thyristor blew.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Generally microwaves are amongst the devices I tag as "do not self repair" I lack the confidence in my repair skills to fuck with the machine with giant caps and built in death ray.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

    Discharging capacitors (and anything else that might hold a charge) isn't that hard and dangerous if you know how. I used to work on radar systems with 32KV on big capacitor banks.

    1: Connect a thick, beefy wire to a solid and reliable ground connection.

    2: Rig up a way to hold that wire in a well-insulated way, so that you have thick, non-conductive insulation between you and the wire, but you can still move it around freely and easily.

    3: Firmly touch the tip of that wire to the contacts of any capacitors you can see, any bare metal contacts you can see, and anything else that might be at all dangerous. If in any doubt at all, touch the wire to it. Do it twice, just to be sure you didn't miss any. (There may possibly be sparks when you do this. That's okay -- it means it's working. Do make sure you're not close to anything that's very flammable, though.)

    After doing that, everything will be discharged and completely safe to work on.

    For something the size of a microwave, you could build a capacitor discharge tool very simply and easily by taking any three-pronged power cord, cutting it in the middle, disconnecting and isolating the two power connections (leaving only the ground connection), leaving a bit of bare wire from the ground wire exposed at the end, and then wrapping your handle area in some extra layers of electrical tape (just in case some of those capacitors have voltages above ~300V). (Or if you want to be ultra-safe, tape a plastic or wooden handle to the wire instead.) Plug that modified 3-prong cable into any standard 3-prong household outlet to connect it to a reliable ground.

    If you want to be a bit more professional about it, a grounding wire from an ordinary welder setup should be able to safely discharge just about anything you'd ever encounter.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    You obviously have the experience and tbh that might be the best guide I've seen on building a capacitor discharge tool (it might also be the only one, but it seems to make sense). For the sake of completeness I assume I plug in the plug and it's just using the house's earth?

    Not sure how possible it is to reassemble it in an unsafe manner with the magnetron in the mix and I'm not sure how much peace of mind I'd have using it afterwards. But I certainly feel a lot happier about discharging big caps now.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    For the sake of completeness I assume I plug in the plug and it’s just using the house’s earth?

    Yes! Heh, I guess I forgot that part. I should add it in, just in case.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Haha, I thought I better check to be sure. It's such a fantastically straightforward sensible concept for a tool I'm honestly not sure why it's not everywhere vs people shorting caps with a screwdriver.

    Crimping a push fit terminal of some sort on the end would make a handy static wrist strap hookup too I'd imagine.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Crimping a push fit terminal of some sort on the end would make a handy static wrist strap hookup too I’d imagine.

    Plus, you'd get to see the horrified looks on your friend's faces when they see you plugging your wrist strap into a wall outlet!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    If it was a problem with the microwave function I don’t think I’d have bothered. I’m terrible at repairing things and break most things worse than they were before. But it was the lightbulb acting up (the underside one, we’ve got an over-range mounted unit).

    In this case I had the circuit diagram and multiple YouTube videos to lean on. Thankfully the thyristor is big, because I’m terrible at soldering, but it worked out.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Appliance repair in the 20's? WTFY (Watch the fucking Youtube)

    query:samsung Ice maker stoped working

    Hi, I'm jimmy from shadyApplianceParts.com Did your samsung ice box stop making ice? That's a common problem. What you need to......

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    What you need to…

    ...do is like, comment, subscribe, and hit that bell for notifications! (Insert 20 seconds of their janky-ass logo and AI-generated intro song.) Now, before I get to the fix, first I want to take a moment to talk about today's sponsor, Nord VPN...

    (And then they'll add a bunch of filler and nonsense to make sure the video goes over 10 minutes so it can be monetized better.)

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Honestly I have to disagree. All my recently purchased appliances: microwave, washing machine, dishwasher and induction cooktop, had detailed instruction manuals that were genuinely useful, especially where the finer details aren't obvious from the device itself.

    Heck, even my wireless earbuds had a little bit of useful info, like how to force them into pairing mode.

    Of course, all those manuals contained those nonsense safety warnings too (and I read every word of course! :P) but that's neither here nor there.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    All those safety warnings are useless nonsense, until:

    This vacuum is not water resistant and no part of it shall come into contact with water. Do not operate this vacuum on wet floors.

    Wash the infuser with water or coffee machine cleaning powder only. Do not wash with soap. Every 6 months, relubricate the seals with food and water safe silicone grease certified with NSF/ANSI/CAN 61 and NSF/ANSI 51.

    Well, good to know.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    This vacuum is not water resistant and no part of it shall come into contact with water. Do not operate this vacuum on wet floors.

    (Which you, of course, find in the manual of your robo-vacuum that runs automatically and has no way to know if the floors are wet or not.)

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    The troubleshooting section of the manual is almost always useless because it only ever covers user error.

    My washer threw a drainage error and the manual suggested I blocked the outlet or had done something daft. I looked up the error code online and 90% of the time it was a failed water pump.

    I had to replace the water pump. It was an easy job that required less documentation than a lego set for a 5 year old. You just had to know which screws to loosen to get to the pump. Was it documented? Of course not.

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