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[–] 59 points 3 months ago (1 child)
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    [–] 122 points 3 months ago* (15 children)

    The end goal of debates is not to change your opponent's mind, but to present your ideas and reasoning to the people watching in a convincing way.

    I stop when it is clear the other person is arguing in bad faith.

    The block button is your strongest weapon against trolls.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago

    Sometimes in public forums my goal is to show the neutral third parties who might stumble upon that thread to see for themselves which view is more reasonable. Bad faith arguments that are common sometimes need to be knocked down whenever and wherever it persists.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The fact I can see your comment makes me think I'm not on your block list yet, and that's a great thing. Yay!

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    As far as I know, blocks on Lemmy are one sided. As on, you don't see stuff from who you blocked, but they can still see your stuff. I've definitely gotten comment replies from people I blocked ages ago, I just see it as blocked as long as I'm logged in.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago*

    If people dont like what they see on the fediverse, thats on them. You can easily block people, communities, instances on your own without cringe feudposting on a daily basis begging the admins to defederate a instance you dont personally agree with.

    You could practice blocking people on me if you want. I actually like it when people block me to be honest.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    The block button is just how cowards prove that they can't back their own arguments. Real debates are resolved via TTRPG fist-fights!

    Don't agree with me? Well, I went all-in on charisma, and I'm still recovering from that sandwich I found on a shelf in a haunted shop. So, y'know, go gentle.

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  • [–] 24 points 3 months ago

    I don't want to be on my death bed wishing I had argued more, so I'm doing what I can while I'm young and ornery

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  • [–] 66 points 3 months ago
    [–] 17 points 3 months ago

    I don’t have any friends still alive to argue with so I gotta fuss at sonsabitches I don’t know!

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Laughs in does not read replies

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Yes, and if you don't agree you can debate me!

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Hello, I'd like to have an argument

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    Mostly, yes a lot!

    Writing about my thoughts, opinions and positions has helped me understand them even better!

    You're rarely going to change anyone's position online, as sadly most aren't arguing in good faith. BUT responding to rebuttals from others and questions (good faith or bad faith) leads to a very cool intellectual exercise where you get to probe your positions from so many different angles.

    If things become toxic or brain-rotty, then you can just disengage without explanation! Kinda cool actually!!!

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Do you try arguing from a position you don't belive? It's useful to have a separate account for this to avoid confusion with profile histories.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Did you know, this is called "trolling"?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    If its done to irritate, yes. But it's standard debating team practice to be given a random topic and have someone else chose if you agree or not.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Sure, but if you're doing it online and trying to hide that you're doing it, I'm gonna say 90% of the time or more, the intention is to irritate.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    If all accounts are anonymous then there's not any hiding.

    The amount of irritation/trolling depends on how personal the comments get, not the username that is making them.

    Sockpuppeting an argument with yourself is just masturbation though.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Sockpuppeting an argument with yourself is just masturbation though.

    I would disagree. How else is one supposed to understand the limitations of a statement? The completeness of a position? Areas for further study? A confidence rating of sorts in a position?

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  • This mental masturbation exercise can be done in the privacy of your own home.

    No need to show off over multiple accounts on a public forum.

    Although, ironically, I am enjoying the suspicion I'm creating about you being my sock puppet.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    No. Not unless the other party clearly knows that I'm arguing for a position that isn't mine. Haven't really had the opportunity to do that on Lemmy.

    That being said, I do most of the counter argument stuff with myself to arrive at a given position. Or, read other people's debates on the matter.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    I can answer with confidence: sometimes!

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago* (13 children)

    It is fun arguing with people you disagree with as long as both argues in good faith and has uses good etiquette. Both needs to be open minded to a certain degree.

    The goal of a conversation is not to convince, but rather to explore your own and their mind. To grow together. A conversation is not a competition, we should not aim to "win" a conversation.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    You're never going to win, and that's not even the point. The point is to provide pushback to people who rarely receive it so that everyone else reading the exchange has a chance to see accurate information.

    For example, it's staggering how many people insist they want socialism when what they're actually describing is social democracy, yet they have no idea what either term actually means. They'll argue, foaming at the mouth, that humanity's only hope is "socialism," while demonstrating they don't understand the ideology they're advocating for.

    The same goes for the abundance of anti-American rhetoric. Some criticism of America is absolutely justified—I have plenty of criticisms of my own country. But it's interesting how many people who endlessly denounce America never mention what country they're from or hold their own country to the same standard.

    So no, the point isn't to win the argument. The point is to apply enough pressure that the other person starts making obvious mistakes, exposing the weaknesses in their own position. That's the entertaining part.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (7 children)

    We must be on different lemmys because it seems pretty well understood here that the whole point of socialism is that the workers democratically control the means of production, only liberals from the USA act confused about that

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    So no. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

    Socialism is not "democratic ownership of the means of production." Where did you get that from? What YouTube channels are you watching?

    Socialism is social or public ownership of the means of production. Democracy is a method of governance, not an economic system. The two are not synonymous.

    In fact, there are companies right here in the United States that are run democratically. They're called worker cooperatives. The employees collectively own the company, elect management, vote on major decisions, and often have much smaller pay gaps between executives and line workers. They're successful examples of democratic workplaces operating within a capitalist economy.

    Socialism, by contrast, is an economic system in which the means of production are owned socially rather than privately. That ownership can take different forms, including state ownership or worker ownership, depending on the model.

    Capitalism is the opposite: the means of production are privately owned, and profits accrue primarily to the owners or shareholders.

    And thanks for proving my point. What liberals have to do with any of this, I have no idea. You pulled that completely out of your ass because you heard it on conservative talk radio or somewhere similar.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    It’s badly phrased but I think that “workers democratically control the means of production” translates to “workers own the means of production”.

    So I think you are ranting over nothing.

    As for worker co-ops in capitalist countries I would argue that those are indeed bubbles of socialism within a broader capitalist system. Just like you can have communes inside a capitalist country. Have you heard of socialist market economy or economic democracy?

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    No, I'm objecting because you're collapsing multiple distinct concepts into the word "socialism."

    A worker co-op is a company where the employees collectively own that particular business. That does not mean the economy is socialist. It is still operating in a market economy, competing with privately owned firms, buying and selling goods, and responding to prices. That's capitalism permitting an alternative ownership structure.

    Socialism, in the classical sense, is public or social ownership of the means of production across the economy. How that ownership is administered, through the state, municipalities, public trusts, or some other institution, is a separate question. "Workers democratically control the means of production" is one proposed implementation, not the definition itself.

    That's why economic democracy, market socialism, worker co-ops, and socialism are related but distinct concepts. You're treating them as interchangeable.

    Ironically, this is exactly the problem I was pointing out. People hear the word "socialism" and start attaching every form of worker participation, workplace democracy, or cooperative ownership to it, even when those things can and do exist inside capitalist economies.

    And the reason I'm ranting is because you are the exact thing I was talking about in my original comment.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    This thread is a whole lot of words for "I am full of myself and dumb".

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    This is a good bit of projection if I've ever seen it.

    If this is your takeaway, my confidence in our people has dropped a few more notches.

    "Waaahhhhh, this thread is a little too intellectual for my tastes, which must mean you're all the dumb ones, not me, surely!"

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Of course it was.

    They were wrong. How are they going to know they are wrong if no one tells them?

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Generally speaking, I don't argue with strangers on the internet with the goal of changing their minds or "educating" them. I mean, I do start with that intention...who doesn't? But by the time I am finished, I realize that I'm just clarifying my own thoughts and positions in my mind.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I don’t start with that goal because I assume people won’t change a stance because some online stranger said something. So I just get out my frustrations on idiots this way. Trying to stop, though. My time is worth more.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    To be fair, when you try it in person, they're all "Who are you? How did you get in my house? I'm calling the cops!", then it's no fun at all.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Before I realized there was no point 99% of the time, I didn't think it was a waste of time. Now if I'm feeling generous I think, at least on a platform like Lemmy, best you can hope is like 10% of the time you plant a seed for the person with a wrong idea or opinion that will eventually lead them to a better understanding. I certainly know that's happened to me before when I was wrong. So often, people make the online exchange feel awful though. There's a prominent attitude in many extremist/wrong viewpoints that not only are they right, everyone who thinks differently is an evil asshole.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    I won, so yeah. 😤

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago
    [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    It was the arguing that taught me when not to argue.

    If you think you can get beyond pleasure without going through it, we are definitely on different trips. - Zen Without Zen Masters

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    well, it's not like i have something better to do, lacking an ocean and a nice rock to sit on in the sun.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Close your eyes and pretend?

    Atleast you'll feel good that way if you put in enough detail.

    Or, maybe arguing makes you feel good? In that case. Well... I guess we're all fucked.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Its my crack I can't stop coming back to all while hating every second of it

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    Oh, I'm about to argue with one right now you little dumbass

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago*

    This is one of the core principles of modern social media platforms.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    It's a hobby.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I made hella dorks melt down on the Dorf fortress message board back in the day so yes

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Us not pushing back on the bullshit and rightwing conspiracy theories is part why we're in this mess!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)

    Conspiracy theories should not all be tarred with the same brush.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Ideas that aren't on the insane end of the spectrum tend to not be labeled conspiracy theories. Which ones deserve such better treatment, out of curiosity?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    All these were once theories

    • McDonalds ice cream machine failures and repair contracts.

    • Phones listening to conversations and giving adverts.

    • Tobacco company cancer denials

    • Oil company climate change denials denial.

    • Banks fixing lending rates.

    • Banks lending to drug cartels.

    • Tuskegee

    • Operation Snow White

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    I don't know anything about the first or last items in this list, but I don't see anything else crazy on there. "Conspiracy theory" strictly would refer to any of your list when unproven, however if you look at the use of that term in reality, it's far more often used to describe an apeshit theory like the us government planning 9/11 or the earth being flat. Something like those, you need to ignore several obvious basic arguments against them to even entertain them.

    Edit: rereading your original comment, it sounds like we are both saying the same thing really.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Pro tip: Never open your inbox.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago*

    1000% worth it.

    If you don't challenge things, you let bullshit flourish and that influences societal views.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    Eh, I try not to have an ego.

    Winning in my case tends to involve shutting down reactive idiots who are spouting bullshit by replying to them with enough sources and facts to the point where they start deleting their own replies and blocking me to get away because they now look like fucking morons.

    It can be very satisfying but sometimes they're also a mod or try to dox me, and that is not so fun.

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