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[–] 247 points 6 months ago (12 children)

The Catholic church is awful. ALL organized religion is inherently awful. That said, I am never going to shit on anyone trying to steer a giant machine of suck in a less shitty direction. Will he fix it? Hell no, but I genuinely wish he can manage to squeeze some good out of that abomination.

Best of luck to you based pope. I hope you manage some good.

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  • [–] 55 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    I was a Catholic, and the church is big on social justice. I used to listen a lot of sermons about government corruption and social inequality that goes on for nearly two hours.

    Is the Catholic church the biggest pedophile ring on the planet? Yes. But hats off to a broken clock that point towards the good direction, but only does so twice a day.

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  • [–] 50 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    With Epstein's iceberg exposed, I'm not even sure they are the biggest.

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  • [–] 25 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I'll upvote you for the sentiment, but any brief consideration of the scope of the church worldwide yields a significantly broader and more accessible footprint than the top tier of wealth hoarders. The valuation of the church versus those individuals is probably equal, though.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    To add, not just the scope in geographical terms, but also the fact that they have been around for more than a thousand years. Several (not all) of the abusing priests were abused themselves. It's a rot that has roots measured in centuries, and I doubt we will ever see the full extent of it.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago

    I was also raised Catholic. Went to school for it even! I'd say that the absolutely stellar sermons/lectures/whatever are more on track eith what Jesus would actually teach. I learned there was a lot of gray area in most things, because there's so many different situations. But after moving away from the community that in my opinion taught religion well, I saw how much worse others are. I haven't really been Christian in a long time, so this was mostly joining family for holidays, but some are really awful. From bringing up unnecessary things like critical race theory to straight ignoring the catechism. I guess all of that just agrees, yeah, it's right twice a day.

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  • [–] -2 points 6 months ago

    That said, I am never going to shit on anyone trying to steer a giant machine of suck in a less shitty direction.

    So you wouldn't shit on someone from the trump administration trying to steer the direction? The only way to manage some good out of this cult is by shutting it down.

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  • [–] 36 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I wonder if the jeebus ever had anything to say about the wealthy.

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  • [–] 32 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    For anyone saying he shouldn't because the curch is rich. It doesn't matter. Its good he is aware and bringing the worlds problems to so many. You can be a hypocrite and still tell the truth.

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  • [–] 47 points 6 months ago

    And the Catholic Church is one of the richest bodies in the world.

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  • [–] 45 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 child)

    I cant believe Im agreeing with the Pope and Im on Irans side in a war.... but here we are

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  • [–] 60 points 6 months ago* (4 children)

    This guy is a badass. He is an individual. He is not the Catholic church, but is an individual person within that church. It's extremely bigoted to say "none of it matters" because of what other members of the Catholic church have done. It's like telling a Catholic person, you refuse to be their friend or listen to what they have to say because of what their church has done

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago

    I mean, you're right but people do that all the time. I'm not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic and people love to dismiss me as a human being all the time for the fact I attended church when I was a pre-teen, as if this makes me automatically a pedophile apologist or something... but the people who think this way are insane and there is no way to reason with them.

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  • [+] -11 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Just like Trump, the Pope knows that he has to attack those like him to protect himself and his organization.

    Unlike Trump, this Pope is clever and much more manipulative.

    People refuse to be friends with Republicans because of what they do, so of course it's perfectly fine to refuse to be friends with Catholics because of what their church has done (and continues to do).

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  • [–] 21 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    He makes a good point.

    At the same time, how much has religion defrauded the common people?

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

    Rather it be the catholic church doing the defrauding than the regime. At least the church has a (spotted) history of helping people. I mean they shined brightly during the black death, and they are a source of comfort for some people in the final moments. That, in of itself, is noble and something worth supporting despite a spotty record.

    Compare that with the regime's looting the coffers with nothing remotely comparable.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah.. Leo likes to throw bricks but lives in a glass house of billions and pedophiles and misogyny. Maybe clean up his own act before preaching.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Why not take on both using the same message.

    Let’s not gatekeep influential people acting in the positive interests of others just because they have problems of their own to work on

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah. I visited the Vatican on vacation and my only thought while inside St Peter's was "Damn this place is so fucking expensive."

    I'm not even sure how anyone can get any sort of piety happening with that ridiculous amount of wealth on display.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    And they still want women to die in childbirth and have no rights within their church.

    How many pedophile priests have been caught to date? 6,000 just in the USA. This makes Epstein Island not even a rounding error.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Alright blud I'm sure that the current pope built it himself with his own money and the vatican is not definitely a few hundreds of years old and built in an extremely different socioeconomic environment where the church WAS the state and not just a religious institution.

    That being said, right, I got it! Let's sell all of this beauty to neoliberal states and billionaires so that they can turn them into malls and parking lots!

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  • [–] 32 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    I don't have a super favorable view on the church but all the people complaining thst the church is a huge display of health in terms of real estate without realizing that most of the crazy expensive things you can find that are related to the church were built 600 years ago or are even older. You are forgetting that the church back in the day was THE state that dominated a huge chunk of the center of modern day Italy. The social and political climate was completely different, the public discourse was different etc.

    You're also forgetting that the church provides for so much services all throughout the world, from healthcare to education and all at really competitive prices because usually everything they do is not even for profit. What are you suggesting for the church to do? To sell everything to billionaires and to states that are drowning in debt and don't even have the expertise to manage such a complex network of stuff so that they can either tear down everything to open malls and parking lots of trying to find a way to profit over it as much as possible? The church, especially in really disadvantaged areas, is many times the ONLY provider of healthcare and education for the poor and parishes and oratories are in many areas the only healthy socialization space in a world that is getting extremely gentrified and that's lacking places where people can connect and build community. You can even enter parishes and participate to their social and volunteering activities without even being a Catholic

    Do I think that there's a huge chunk of pedophiles in the church? YES. Do I think we need more transparency in the Vatican financial statements? 100%. But just like administrations over time change, so does the church. It's good that such an influential person is trying his best to make the conscience of millions of people wake up

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  • [–] 96 points 6 months ago (31 children)

    Reminder that the Catholic church just instituted an absolute trans healthcare ban in the USA - including for adults. This is worse than the Trump regime's laws, plus the Catholic church owns an astounding number of hospitals.

    He is not a "woke pope". This is the Catholic church.

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 27 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    "U.S. Catholic bishops voted Wednesday..."

    Not the pope. US bishops, bishops that look like judges from a country that looks evil.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    They are part of the same Catholic church. They answer to the pope.

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    thats not how the power structure works at all. not everything is absolutist and the pope cant dictate others faith without risking separation if its a large group. its almost like you cant do whatever you want, not even the pope.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago*

    If they are to be separated so be it. In not taking that chance, all that blood is in this Pope's hands.

    Off course there's never been a Pope who hasn't been at least happily complacent in mass murder. In not condemning it he endorses it.

    But to the Pope it is more important to maximize his power, be in from murderers, pedophiles, conmen or a devil of any kind. This God's emissary on Earth has always been a refuge for the most evil people on it, and continues to be so.

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago

    This isn't the 15th century, the pope does not have the same kind of top-down control. And the American clergy are notoriously conservative and dickish, and they fucking hate the pope, they hated the last pope too.

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  • [–] 58 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (6 children)

    Maybe true, but not very relative relevant to the fact that international companies more powerful than some nations are gaming every system they can to squeeze more profit, by the expense of everyone else.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    The Catholic Church is on the same level as many of those companies, and guilty of many of the same crimes. It’s absolutely “relative” and relevant to the topic at hand.

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  • [+] -13 points 6 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 26 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    The first comment engaged in whataboutism. The above poster just restated the point of the article..

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    It's a fair mention, though, especially considering the "defrauded by the rich" comment is pretty hypocritical coming out of the Vatican.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Why bother talking about it, though? Trying to refute it just means the people it does reach are less likely to believe the rich are defrauding them.

    You can criticize an institution for something while also acknowledging that their criticisms are valid as well.

    Treating everything as black and white, good and evil, with no gray area at all is both counter to reality and progress.

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

    Isn't the Catholic church like a big tent with the pope as its figurehead? Obviously he can steer the church in a certain direction, but does he necessarily condone everything that happens under its banner?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (1 child)

    Yes. The pope isn't so micromanaging monarch who is like determining every other member's policy.

    You can live in the same city, and multiple congregations in that city have wildly different levels interpretations of scripture and politics that they preach. There are progressive Catholics and ones who are Orthodox.

    but we can't let that never of nuace int othe discussion, because lemmy users are Very Intelligent and know that all religion is bad, and FOSS is the only true god we should all worship at the temple of...

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    This is just an empty posturing championship and the pope is the grand winner. It's so tiring that he so much praise for saying the least controversial things that everyone agrees with.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago*

    Two things can be true at the same time. You can condemn evil and still be evil yourself. It's very hypocritical of them but it doesn't make their argument weaker, It just says that they aren't going to be the ones to do anything about it.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Agreed. So many fickle opinions on the internet. Hate AI, oh but they’re making Lego memes to troll Trump. Hate Catholic Church, oh but the pope is criticizing Trump.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    You can hate something but still appreciate when they make steps in the right direction. Progress is never instantaneous, and expecting it to be is a recipe for disappointment and disenfranchisement.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    I’ll how long you’ve been on Lemmy, but lots of folks around here are very black and white about things.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    Im well aware, but as I see things in full color im going to understand that they're frustrated, but at least working on pushing for a better future for everyone. So im not just going to give up and assume they're all horrible people who I should ignore and instead try my best to work with them towards that better future.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Why are you hijacking and denouncing a post about the pope doing good with trans politics, he didnt even order that to happen, Your country is falling apart and this is what your focused on?? People are lossing they're livelihoods and loosing the ability to feed themselves and their family and you going "well some of them don't like trans people" grow the hell up.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I don’t think the Catholic Church owns hospitals, but I could be wrong. I think the main model you see today is that hospital systems can claim tax exempt (nonprofit) status by aligning to the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (ERDs). Under the ERDs, the church is able to enforce its religious beliefs in healthcare, such as the ones on trans healthcare. While that is bad, there are parts of the ERD that are tied into providing more community service and ensuring compassionate care for our least privileged communities.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago*

    I don’t think the Catholic Church owns hospitals

    I don't know how valid this is or what their source is, but I found this saying that in the US alone forty-six states have Catholic-owned hospitals, with 14% of the hospital beds under Catholic ownership, exceeding 40% of the beds in some states. The same source says "15.8 percent of all short-term acute care hospitals in the United States are Catholic-owned or are affiliated with a Catholic system."

    Take that estimate for what it's worth, they didn't name their sources, but those figures actually seem a bit conservative, and not at all out of the realm of possibility. Whether it's outright ownership or just the maintenance and operation of hospitals and other healthcare organizations, the Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.

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  • [–] 44 points 6 months ago (16 children)

    Uhmm…people give the Catholic Church hundreds of millions of dollars a year. The church is richer than some countries. I mean, I understand what he was trying to get at, but he might not be the best person to point that out.

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  • [–] 58 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    If only Jesus would have been as explicit about his feelings on religious profiteering as he was about his attitude towards abortion, gays, and gun rights.

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    They do more for humanity through charity work than individual billionaires though.

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  • [–] 18 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    As someone who's done pro-bono and charity work for several religious organizations ... the Catholics, Muslim and Jewish dioceses or denominations were always by the books. The Christian-based ones though? Every single one was shady, pulled in as much money for their family as possible and a few would even pull me to the side to ask about fudging numbers with their software.

    The Christian and Baptist churches were mostly criminal, if not just in a moral stance, they were outright criminal. The precedent at least had checks and balances while the latter .... everyone is in on it.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    They learned from the best! The Catholics are no longer so obviously gold-crazy as they once were (for centuries!), they have so much wealth it is hardly a concern for them at this point, untold billions, 170 million acres of land, and so much more than we will ever know.

    Baptists, Assembly of God, et al? They have a lot of catching up to do, so they are still obsessed with fleecing everyone for every dime that they can.

    Sadly, they are all tax free in many places, so the poor are still being robbed to pay for their "faiths"

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    A lot of this is just due to the Reformation I imagine. If you want to become a corrupt greedy preacher, why do so in a church that requires their priests to take a vow of poverty? Pre-Reformation, those who wanted to grift joined the Church and found various excuses to get around vows of poverty. But in many Protestant churches, there is no vow of poverty to have to work around.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    It's built up over hundreds and hundreds of years, now the church doesn't have the spending power it once had and it is drowning in debt. I wish they won't ever sell their real estate or I think that private billionaires will turn them into fucking amusement parks

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Last year the Catholic Church reportedly generated €1.23B ($1.45B) in income. Which is more than the GDP of 10-13 poorest countries in the world, depending on which source you use.

    Donations accounted for €237M ($279M) and are the Church's largest source of income.

    It also had a budget deficit lately, until last year. Overall it's pretty rich, but not nearly as rich as a lot of companies are and as some people would think.

    It should also be noted that Pope Leo has been pope for less than a year, which isn't exactly a whole lot of time to completely reform the Church and rid it of corruption. Assuming that's at all possible, since the Catholic Church has been corrupt pretty much since the moment it was founded. I'm not saying he will ever do that or that he even wants to. However, so far he's been a lot better than last few popes, so let's give him some time.

    Sources:

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Catholics are smelling of roses recently compared to the genocide supporting neocon Christians.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    The right will be very mad about this

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  • [–] 15 points 6 months ago*

    I did not take Pope Leo for a comrade. ✊

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