A user asked on the official Lutris GitHub two weeks ago "is lutris slop now" and noted an increasing amount of "LLM generated commits". To which the Lutris creator replied:

It's only slop if you don't know what you're doing and/or are using low quality tools. But I have over 30 years of programming experience and use the best tool currently available. It was tremendously helpful in helping me catch up with everything I wasn't able to do last year because of health issues / depression.

There are massive issues with AI tech, but those are caused by our current capitalist culture, not the tools themselves. In many ways, it couldn't have been implemented in a worse way but it was AI that bought all the RAM, it was OpenAI. It was not AI that stole copyrighted content, it was Facebook. It wasn't AI that laid off thousands of employees, it's deluded executives who don't understand that this tool is an augmentation, not a replacement for humans.

I'm not a big fan of having to pay a monthly sub to Anthropic, I don't like depending on cloud services. But a few months ago (and I was pretty much at my lowest back then, barely able to do anything), I realized that this stuff was starting to do a competent job and was very valuable. And at least I'm not paying Google, Facebook, OpenAI or some company that cooperates with the US army.

Anyway, I was suspecting that this "issue" might come up so I've removed the Claude co-authorship from the commits a few days ago. So good luck figuring out what's generated and what is not. Whether or not I use Claude is not going to change society, this requires changes at a deeper level, and we all know that nothing is going to improve with the current US administration.

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[–] 207 points 8 months ago* (28 children)

I mean, I get if you wanna use AI for that, it's your project, it's free, you're a volunteer, etc. I'm just not sure I like the idea that they're obscuring what AI was involved with. I imagine it was done to reduce constant arguments about it, but I'd still prefer transparency.

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  • [–] [S] 66 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    I tried fitting AI into my workloads just as an experiment and failed. It'll frequently reference APIs that don't even exist or over engineer the shit out of something could be written in just a few lines of code. Often it would be a combo of the two.

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  • [–] 40 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah I mean. It's not like AI can think. It's just a glorified text predictor, the same you have on your phone keyboard

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    It's like having an idiot employee that works for free. Depending on how you manage them, that employee can either do work to benefit you or just get in your way.

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  • [–] 25 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Only it's not free. If you run it in the cloud, it's heavily subsidized and proactively destroying the planet, and if you run it at home, you're still using a lot of increasingly unaffordable power, and if you want something smarter than the average American politician, the upfront investment is still very significant.

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  • [+] 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (9 children)
  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    Agreed, I don't understand people not even giving it a chance. They try it for five minutes, it doesn't do exactly what they want, they give up on it, and shout how shit it is.

    Meanwhile, I put the work in, see it do amazing shit after figuring out the basics of how the tech works, write rules and skills for it, have it figure out complex problems, etc.

    It's like handing your 90-year-old grandpa the Internet, and they don't know what the fuck to do with it. It's so infuriating.

    Probably because, like your 90-year-old grandpa with the Internet, you have to know how to use the search engine. You have to know how to communicate ideas to an LLM, in detail, with fucking context, not just "me needs problem solvey, go do fix thing!"

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    It's not really that simple. Yes, it's a great tool when it works, but in the end it boils down to being a text prediction machine.

    So a nice helper to throw shit at, but I trust the output as much as a random Stackoverflow reply with no votes :)

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    I feel like there needs to be a dedicated post (and I don't want to write it, but maybe I eventually will) that outlines what a model really is. It is not just a statistical text prediction machine unless you are being so loose with the definition of "statistical" that it doesn't even mean anything anymore.

    A decent example of a statistical text prediction machine is the middle word suggested by your phone when you're using the keyboard. An LLM is not that.

    In the most general terms, this kind of language model tokenizes a corpus of text based on a vocabulary (which is probably more than just the words in the dictionary), uses an embedding model to translate these tokens into a vector of semantic "meaning" which minimized loss in a bidirectional encoding (probably), that is then trained against a rubric for one or more topic area questions, retrained for instruction and explainability, retrained with reinforcement learning and human feedback to provide guardrails, and retrained again to make use of supplemental materials not part of the original training corpus (resource augmented generation), then distilled, then probably scaled and fine tuned against topic areas of choice (like coding or Korean or whatever) and maybe THEN made available to people to use. There are generally more parts to curriculum learning even than that but it's a representative-ish start.

    My point being that, yes, it would be nuts to pose ANY question to a predictor that says "with 84% probability, the word that is most likely follows 'I really like' is 'gooning' on reddit", but even Grok is wildly more sophisticated than that and Grok is terrible.

    Edit: And also I really like your take at the start of this thread: user error is a pretty huge problem in this space.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    The training is sophisticated, but inference is unfortunately really a text prediction machine. Technically token prediction, but you get the idea.

    For every single token/word. You input your system prompt, context, user input, then the output starts.

    The

    Feed the entire context back in and add the reply "The" at the end.

    The capital

    Feed everything in again with "The capital"

    The capital of

    Feed everything in again...

    The capital of Austria

    ...

    It literally works like that, which sounds crazy :)

    The only control you as a user can have is the sampling, like temperature, top-k and so on. But that's just to soften and randomize how deterministic the model is.

    Edit: I should add that tool and subagent use makes this approach a bit more powerful nowadays. But it all boils down to text prediction again. Even the tools are described per text for what they are for.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Unless that's how people are designing front ends for models, it literally DOESN'T work like that. It works like that until you finish training an embedding model with masking related tasks, but that's the tip of the iceberg. The input vector, after being tokenized, is ingested wholesale. Now there's sometimes funny business to manage the size of a context window effectively but this isn't that unless you're home-rolling and you're caching your own inputs or something before you give it to the model.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    but in the end it boils down to being a text prediction machine.

    And we're barely smarter than a bunch of monkeys throw piles of shit at each other. Being reductive about its origins doesn't really explain anything.

    I trust the output as much as a random Stackoverflow reply with no votes :)

    Yeah, but that's why there's unit tests. Let it run its own tests and solve its own bugs. How many mistakes have you or I made because we hate making unit tests? At least the LLM has no problems writing the tests, after you know it works.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Just yesterday I had one of those moments of grace that are becoming commonplace.

    Basically I have to migrate a service from a n8n workflow to an actual nodejs server for performance reasons. I spent 15 minutes carefully scoping the migration, telling it exactly what tools to use and code style to adopt. Gave it the original brief and access to the n8n workflows.

    The whole thing was done in 4 minutes and 30 seconds. It even noticed a bug which has been in production unnoticed for the past year. Gave me some good documentation on how to setup the Google service account, the kind of memory usage to expect so I can dimension the instant accordingly. Another five minutes and I had a whole test suite with decent coverage. I had negotiated with the client that it would take around a week, well that was the under promise of the year...

    People who go around telling it doesn't work are incompetent, out of their minds or straight up lying.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    At a minimum, the agent should be compiling the code and running tests before handing things back to you. "It references non-existent APIs" isn't a modern problem.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    I create custom embedded devices with displays and I've found it very useful for laying things out. Like asking it to take secondly wind speed and direction updates and build a Wind Rose out of it, with colored sections in each petal denoting the speed... it makes mistakes but then you just go back and reiterate on those mistakes. I'm able to do so much more, so much faster.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    The symptoms you describe are caused by bad prompting. If an AI is providing over-complicated solutions, 9 times out of 10 it's because you didn't constrain your problem enough. If it's referencing tools that don't exist, then you either haven't specified which tools are acceptable or you haven't provided the context required for it to find the tools. You may also be wanting too much out of AI. You can't expect it to do everything for you. You still have to do almost all the thinking and engineering if you want a quality project - the AI is just there to write the code. Sure, you can use an AI to help you learn how to be a better engineer, but AIs typically don't make good high-level decisions. Treat AI like an intern, not like a principal engineer.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    I had the same experience. Asked a local LLM about using sole Qt Wayland stuff for keyboard input, a the only documentation was the official one (which wasn't a lot for a noob), no.examples of it being used online, and with all my attempts at making it work failing. it hallucinated some functions that didn't exist, even when I let it do web search (NOT via my browser). This was a few years ago.

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago

    Considering the amount of damage AI has done to well-funded projects like Windows and Amazon's services, I agree with this entirely. It might be crucial to help fix bigger issues down the line.

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago

    I expect because it wasn't a user - just a random passer by throwing stones on their own personal crusade. The project only has two major contributors who are now being harassed in the issues for the choices they make about how to run their project.

    Someone might fork it and continue with pure artisanal human crafted code but such forks tend to die off in the long run.

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  • [–] 71 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Somehow hiding the code feels worse than using the code. This whole thing is yuck.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Yeah, management wants us to use AI at $DAYJOB and one of the strategies we've considered for lessening its negative impact on productivity, is to always put generated code into an entirely separate commit.

    Because it will guess design decisions at random while generating, and you want to know afterwards whether a design decision was made by the randomizer or by something with intelligence. Much like you want to know whether a design decision was made by the senior (then you should think twice about overriding this decision) or by the intern that knows none of the project context.

    We haven't actually started doing these separate commits, because it's cumbersome in other ways, but yeah, deliberately obfuscating whether the randomizer was involved, that robs you of that information even more.

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  • [–] 171 points 8 months ago (27 children)

    you can criticise them but ultimately they are a unpaid developer making their work freely available to the benefit of us all. at least don't harass the developer.

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  • [–] 64 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    You make a fair point, but I feel like the trolling reaction they gave was asking for more backlash. Not responding was probably the best move.

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  • [–] 74 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    It's typical of dev burnout, though. Communication starts becoming more impulsive and less constructive, especially in the face of conflicts of opinions.

    I've seen it play a few times already. A toxic community will take a dev who's already struggling, troll them, screenshot their problematic responses, and use that in a campaign across relevant places such as github, reddit, lemmy... Maybe add a little light harassment on the side, as a treat. It's a fun activity ! The dev spirals, posts increasingly unhinged responses and often quits as a result.

    The fact that the thread is titled "is lutris slop now" is a clear indication that the intention of the poster wasn't to contribute anything constructive but to attack the dev and put them on their back foot.

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I see your point. I might also have responded poorly to that, on some level at least.

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago

    Yeah same. I'd like to think i'd answer "I'll use AI, if you don't like it you can fork the project and i wish you good luck. Go share your opinion on AI in an appropriate place.". But realistically there's a high chance it catches me on a bad day and i get stupid.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    ... You're right. I definitely wouldn't be above such a response.

    The problem is, a lot of people here - myself included - were/are also being impulsive about their responses to this issue, at least partially due to all the shitty stuff caused by GenAI.

    There might be some toxic people too, I wouldn't be surprised - but this can happen without them, too.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    The thing is, toxic people thrive in mob situations and are often found leading or even manufacturing them. I tend to be wary around this kind of setups as they are easy to get caught up in and hard to get out of.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    The fact that the thread is titled “is lutris slop now” is a clear indication that the intention of the poster wasn’t to contribute anything constructive but to attack the dev and put them on their back foot.

    No, it was literally an important question to have answered. And booooy did the dev answer.

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  • [–] -1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Is it appropriate to ask a stranger a question by first calling their work "slop" ? Is that how you communicate with people ? How is that working out irl ?

    Y'all are so immersed in bully culture that this seems normal to you smh

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Wow, calling asking to identify if something is a thing by the name of the thing that it's being asked about is "bully culture" now? This is a whole new low level of argument in the pro-AI take.

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  • [+] -11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Trolling? They gave a pretty good answer explaining their reasoning.

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  • [–] 70 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I’ve removed the Claude co-authorship from the commits a few days ago. So good luck figuring out what’s generated and what is not.

    Seems pretty obvious to me that they knew this wouldn't go over well. It was inflammatory by design.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    I agree with you with the current state of things in the world is hard to keep up and easy to complain. I'd say instead of asking the guy to not use AI ask him what he needs for help. He's clearly stating that he's in burnout.
    I don't have the time or skills to help so I wouldn't go complaining.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    They are on liberapay if you want to support the project btw. Combined with Patreon, they sit at less than 700$ a week. That's like half a dev before tax

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  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    They want to put clanker code that they freely admit they don’t validate into a product that goes on the computers of people who’s experience with Linux is “I heard it’s faster for games”

    It’s irresponsible to hide it from review. It doesn’t matter if AI tools got better, AI tools still aren’t perfect and so you still have to do the legwork. Or at least let your community.

    Also, you should let your community make ethics decisions about whether to support you.

    Overall it was a rash reaction to being pressured rudely in a GitHub thread; but you know AI is a contentious topic and you went in anyway. It’s weak AF to then have a tantrum and spit in the community’s face about it.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Nothing is being hidden from review. The code is open source. They removed the specific attribution that indicates which parts of the code were created using Claude. That changes absolutely nothing about the ability to review the code, because a code review should not distinguish between human written code and machine written code; all of it should be checked thoroughly. In fact, I would argue that specifically designating code as machine written is detrimental to code review, because there will be a subconscious bias among many reviewers to only focus on reviewing the machine code.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago* (5 children)

    In fact, I would argue that specifically designating code as machine written is detrimental to code review, because there will be a subconscious bias among many reviewers to only focus on reviewing the machine code.

    Oh, it's more than subconscious, as you can see in this thread.

    Lutris developer makes a perfectly sane and nuianced response to a reactionary “is lutris slop now” comment, and gets shit on for it, because everybody has to fight in black and white terms. There are no grey opinions, only battle lines to be drawn to these people.

    What? Are you all going to shit on your lord and savior Linus himself for also saying he uses LLMs? Oh, what, you didn't know?!?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    The response is only nuanced until the "good luck" sentence. If he swallowed that it would be an almost perfect response. But that sentence is a quite big "fuck you".

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    A little personal flourish doesn't invalidate the rest IMO. Humans get aggravated and humans are aggravating.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, and I didn't say that. I even argued in favor of his response thoughout this whole post (getting a shit ton of downvotes all along). But I think that doesn't invalidate my point either: without this one sentence, his whole chain of arguments would have been pretty good and reasonable. It was just unnecessary to then add this snarky remark. It's understandable if he's pissed, but just because you are pissed when you say something doesn't make what you said a clever move.

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  • [–] 48 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    To admit some context: My company has strongly encouraged some AI usage in our coding. They also encourage us to be honest about how helpful, or not, it is. Usually, I tell them it turns out a lot of garbage and once in a while helps make a lengthy task easier.

    I can believe him about there being a sweet spot; where it's not used for everything, only for processes that might have taken a night of manual checks. The very real, very reasonable backlash to it is how easily a poor management team or overconfident engineer will fall away from that sweet spot, and merge stuff that hasn't had enough scrutiny.

    Even Bernie Sanders acknowledged on the senate floor that in a perfect world, where AI is owned by people invested in world benefit, moderate AI use could improve many people's lives. It's just sad that in 99.9% of cases, we're not anywhere near that perfect world.

    I don't totally blame the dev for defending his use of AI backed by industry experience, if he's still careful about it. But I also don't blame people who don't trust it. It's kind of his call, and if the avoidance of AI is important enough to you, I'd say fork it. I think it's a small red flag, but not nearly enough of one for me to condemn the project.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Even Bernie Sanders acknowledged on the senate floor that in a perfect world, where AI is owned by people invested in world benefit, moderate AI use could improve many people’s lives.

    I don't think you should make a claim like this while AI is being heavily subsidized and burning VC cash to stay afloat. The truth is whatever value it may add to such a society might actually be completely negated by it's resource costs. Is even "moderate" AI use ecologically or economically sustainable?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    For full disclosure, I remembered once someone claimed to me there are AI models that use much less power. But, to confirm that statement before replying, I looked up an investigation, and they say it’s much murkier, and that a company’s own claims are usually understating it. So, you’re on point.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago*

    Indeed, as they said in Italian "if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike" ... the reasoning might be theoretically correct but in the current situation it's just not the case.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It can be useful for generating switch cases and other such not-quite copy-paste work too. There are reasonable use cases... if you ignore how the training data was sourced.

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  • [+] 11 points 7 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Yup, single dev here, can confirm. I'm coding for a living but am mediocre at it since I jumped from civil engineering to something I kind of enjoy. To me coding assistants are a huge help. Finding solutions, discussing ideas, writing down implementation plans, can't do all that stuff with my colleagues since they have no clue about my work.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Your own unpaid intern, who is paid by someone else, employed by someone else, and who has access to all your repos secrets and business logic.

    Yeah, nah. I think id rather not train my competitors.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Are you hosting your code in any way accesible from the internet? Gitlab, gitea, forgrjo?

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Github. We use azure too. I trust Microsoft a hell of a lot more than these AI clowns.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    Up until recently, Lutris worked perfectly for me. Ever since around the release of Wine 11, though, cant get anything to even install, let alone play. This might explain my increasing frustration with the app.

    Guess I'm going back to using Bottles for the odd game or app I don't feel like trying to shoehorn into steam.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    I am very much a beginner, and until now lutris was kind of my default answer for "how the hell do I get that windows exe installer to spit its entrails so I can run it through wine" (or even native engines like VCMI, Daggerfall Unity and Creatures Docking Station).

    For everything that doesn't come from Steam, obviously.

    What is the more direct way? Does Bottles do that? I haven't tried it yet.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    There's actually a number of options. Lutris and Bottles are both built on top of Wine. And there are other apps that use Wine to make it all work, but I'm not very familiar with anything else...yet!

    Bottles can be a little tricky to get used to - one of the biggest issues is that it sandboxes the Wine runtime, so you'll often need to move your .exe into the right file path. But, other than that I found it pretty easy to use! So if you need something that you can "drop in" to replace Lutris, it's worth a try! It has some helpful preconfigured runtime environments, depending on if you are running a general propose application or a video game. For the power users, you can even start with a blank slate.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (6 children)

    Interesting. I am mostly interested in running games. I'll have a look into how Bottles work then.

    I feel like for most if not all of my use cases that are not specific games, I can find some decent stuff running natively.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (5 children)

    Oh, definitely. One of the best things about Linux and the free software movement, innit? But, the 'applications' preset in bottles is great for that one tool that is just hard to live without, or some specific tool created by the community that may or may not ever get a native port (SAK.exe for managing Switch ROM files comes to mind for me).

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (4 children)

    For now I think the thing that I'll miss the most will be Virtual Desktop. I haven't tried my headset with this PC yet, I have a more recent one that's still on Win11 for that, but I know SteamLink is completely broken for me and VD is what makes PCVR even possible for me.

    I blame Valve for that need by the way. They had a version of SteamVR/SteamLink that worked well enough a couple versions back, they broke it in newer versions for my headset, and I can't even go back to the one that worked because the only option is "previous" and we're past that. Many reports later they still haven't fixed it.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    I am trying to give their programmers credit where I can; first, the massive influx of time and money into gaming on Linux has had obvious, amazing benefits. And my recent gripes would be about a persistent bug that has crept into Steam OS desktop mode; but it's a one line shell script to fix, and they just moved to a much more recent kernel, not to mention officially tackling support for third party handheld PCs, so....yeah, that all sounds like a headache on crack.

    But, honestly, I hear ya all the same. I think we feel confident holding these guys to a high standard for good reasons, so hopefully it all comes out in the wash.

    Edit: I don't know much about virtual desktop options that run native, but wish you luck. Seems like lots of stuff going on in that area these days...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Thank you, I think at some point I'll end up getting the Frame, or at least a newer headset that's guaranteed to be supported by their API, so I certainly hope it'll work on Linux.

    Sure, they've done a lot to make the transition to linux easier, and that's great. Especially right now with Microsoft going to shit harder than ever. To me it sounded a bit overdramatic around Win8 when they went all "Microsoft gaming is over" but they were definitely right to start working on it.

    But specifically for VR I tend to think they should be held somewhat accountable because, they sell VR games. I bought games there with the expectation they'd work, and they did, for a while. The fact they suddenly don't without anything changing on my end is bad. Especially since one solution would be letting us go back to the version that worked.

    Unfortunately for now the only good workaround I know is VD, which is Windows-only proprietary software.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Oh, I assume a solution like Sunshine/Moonlight on Linux don't provide what you need?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I do have that between my 2 PCs. It works surprisingly well, definitely could be useful for stuff I can only get to run on the windows one.

    Not too useful in that particular case though, since VR is already sort of streamed to the headset anyway, if I can do it from the windows server I don't need the linux client in between. The thing that bothers me most is I'm still dependent on my meatier VR PC to stay on windows to keep using VR. For now, it'll do, but with things going the way they are...

    I also don't have VD to experiment from my linux, but for now, it would just be nice to have.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Every extra person using all these AI tools is only adding to the issue.

    No, literally the opposite. They are going to do this until it is not financially viable. The more frugal and conscientious people are with their AI, the longer it is financially viable. If you want to pop the bubble, go set up a bot to hammer their free systems with bogus prompts. Run up their bills until they can't afford to be speculative any more.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Run up their bills until they can’t afford to be speculative any more.

    Sadly I don't think you've met venture capitalists... they will use your usage as a KPI for success. They have a runway longer than you can imagine, check the history of Amazon or Uber. They can be unprofitable for years, heck longer than a decade, and they are fine with it because they are claiming (and sadly sometimes right) to be cornering a trillion dollar market.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Amazon is the exception, not the rule. Check the history of the dotcom bubble, including amazon. Uber is no longer allowed to lose money like it once was. That's why they've switched from cheap rides and good pay, to algorithmic pricing and shit pay.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    I'm not saying it's a good strategy, just that since SoftBank it's basically core to the VC default playbook.

    I believe it's been tweaked, thanks to Musk, Enron and banks to subsidies transitioning to too big to fail.

    So, it might not work, ever, but I still think if you look at the large VC rounds, that's what they are funding, to be so big nobody can reach you at any cost.

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