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[–] 303 points 8 months ago (54 children)

As much as I wish this was true, I don't really think it is.

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  • [–] 223 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    It's just unsettled law, and the link is basically an opinion piece. But guess who wins major legal battles like this - yep, the big corps. There's only one way this is going to go for AI generated code

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  • [–] 29 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Worst case is that its the owner of the agent that recieves the copyright, so all vibe coded stuff outside local ai will be claimed by the big corpos

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    I actually think that's the best case because it would kill enterprise adoption of AI overnight. All the corps with in-house AI keep using and pushing it, but every small to medium business that isn't running AI locally will throw it out like yesterday's trash. OpenAI's stock price will soar and then plummet.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Unlikely since, as you say, it would deter business. OpenAI already assigns rights of output to the end user according to their licensing and terms.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    No attempt to argue with you, personally is intended here. But your comment raises another question that I’m not sure the law has answered yet.

    What rights does OpenAI have in the output of ChatGPT in the first place? Because if the answer is “Not much” then their transfer of rights to the output to the user doesn’t necessarily mean much.

    After all, OpenAI can only transfer rights that they have. If they don’t have any to begin with… 🤷‍♂️

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Yep, totally fair question, and one that's being tested legally on many fronts. Rulings are generally siding with AI companies on the training side (using copyrighted works to train models is fair use) but there aren't many decisions yet about output. The next few years will be interesting.

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  • [–] 38 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    It is true that AI work (and anything derived from it that isn't significantly transformative) is public domain. That said, the copyright of code that is a mix of AI and human is much more legally grey.

    In other work, where it can be more separated, individual elements may have different copyright. For example, a comic was made using AI generated images. It was ruled that all the images were thus public domain. Despite that, the text and the layout of the comic was human-made and so the copyright to that was owned by the author. Code, obviously can't be so easily divided up, and it will be much harder to define what is transformative or not. As such, its a legal grey area that will probably depend on a case-by-case basis.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    The use of AI tools to assist rather than stand in for human creativity does not affect the availability of copyright protection for the output. Copyright protects the original expression in a work created by a human author, even if the work also includes AI-generated material.

    I'm not sure where you get that from, I'm pretty sure vibe coding still complies with these indications

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    "AI-generated" works can be copyrighted. However, on the condition that the AI-generated elements are explicitly mentioned in the "Excluded Material" field. In other words, the parts generated by AI are not protected, only the parts that are expressed by human creativity. Courts in the U.S have already rejected registration for many AI works because of that. Regardless, it's still a contentious matter.

    P.S. I am completely opposed to (generative) AI as well as the copyright system. I'm just stating my findings researching the law and court cases.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Did you even read your own report? It says that AI works are copyrightable in certain circumstances, not that they make a whole project public:

    Copyright law has long adapted to new technology and can enable case-by- case determinations as to whether AI-generated outputs reflect sufficient human contribution to warrant copyright protection. As described above, in many circumstances these outputs will be copyrightable in whole or in part—where AI is used as a tool, and where a human has been able to determine the expressive elements they contain. Prompts alone, however, at this stage are unlikely to satisfy those requirements.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago

    "AI-generated" works can be copyrighted. However, on the condition that the AI-generated elements are explicitly mentioned in the "Excluded Material" field. In other words, the parts generated by AI are not protected, only the parts that are expressed by human creativity. Courts in the U.S have already rejected registration for many AI works because of that.

    P.S. I am completely opposed to (generative) AI as well as the copyright system. I'm just stating my findings researching the law and court cases.

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  • [+] -12 points 8 months ago (33 children)

    The part that is untrue is the "public domain" part. If you generate code then you don't own it because the actual human work that went into creating it was done by the owner of the AI Model and whatever they trained on.

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  • [–] 31 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (14 children)

    Iirc it's even funnier: the relevant case law comes from Naruto v Slater. A case about a monkey taking a selfie and a photographer failing to acquire copyright of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute).

    The copyright belonged to whoever shot the selfie, but because it was the monkey and animals aren't juristic entities, they can not hold copyright. Therefore, as it stands and as new case law outlines, AIs are compared to monkeys, in that the copyright would fall onto them but it's not a juristic entities either, and therefore copyright just vanishes and no one can claim it.

    The wikipedia page suggests current cases on generative AI directly build on this.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago

    It was an especially interesting case because there was a question of whether the photographer lied about who actually took the picture. So he could either claim the monkey took it an lose the copyright or claim he took it and have it lose all value.

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  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    See that's kind of what I'm talking about. The monkeys who pressed the buttons to make the AI Generate the code isn't the computer, it isn't the user, it's the employees at the AI company. My advice is that until laws are properly in place that we shouldn't use AI for any generative industry.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    The AI company didn't do shit. They stole apples from someone elses tree and threw it in a blender. They didn't make the apples, nor did they buy them, so they don't legally own the juice.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    While I agree with the general idea, please don't call piracy "stealing". It's not stealing, whether you do it or some giant corpo.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    While I agree², their use of "steal" makes sense in the analogy because the apple doesn't belong to the "thief"; besides, you can't pirate an apple

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Evidently you can!

    “Apple piracy is a problem,” said Lynnell Brandt, chief executive officer of Proprietary Variety Management, the Yakima firm hired to handle the Cosmic Crisp rollout. “Some are propagating trees without permission. Some are stolen in the middle of the night.”

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  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    If the AI produces verbatim the licensed works of others then the others own it.

    If the AI took individual unlicensed elements and pieced them together then the AI Company owns it.

    In any and every case, neither the User nor the Public Domain owns it. Moral of the story is: never use AI for anything.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    The AI company stole other people's code, threw it into a blender, and is selling the output. They didn't do any real work, and they don't own the materials. They have no legal claim over the result. You do not own a car you made from stolen parts, no matter how many cars you stole from.

    Stop trying to imply your buddies at AI companies have value.

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  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    We appear to be talking in circles.

    I'm literally sitting here telling people it isn't safe to use AI Code, you're doing the opposite, and you're accusing me of being buddies with the Slop Companies?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Yes. You're giving the companies WAY too much credit for owning the blender they throw stolen content into, and you're even trying to give them ownership of what clearly doesn't belong to them. I'm sure they're just as eager to claim they did all the work and license the materials they use as you are.

    I try not to call people idiots in debates, so there's really only one reason you'd be giving them so much support.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago

    I guarantee you that the AI Companies don't give a single fuck about our opinion on copyrightable status, they've made an industry off of ignoring copyright laws entirely, and are instead salivating at the idea of a bunch of fucking idiots putting their slop code in everything so that they can try to enforce rights on it later.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    No one who matters is claiming openAI owns the stuff their product outputs. Is would be social suicide to claim such things with the popularly accepted position that LLM companies improperly trained their LLMs on copyright works

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (17 children)

    You're just making shit up. The US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit has affirmed that AI-generated work is in the public domain. Put up or shut up.


    Edit: Additionally, the US Copyright Office writes:

    As the agency overseeing the copyright registration system, the [Copyright] Office has extensive experience in evaluating works submitted for registration that contain human authorship combined with uncopyrightable material, including material generated by or with the assistance of technology.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    How does this work in practice? Someone would have to prove that it's AI generated, which isn't straight forward.

    Also, I'm not clear this protects the release of code centered a trade secret or under NDA.

    So while the court ruled it's public domain. Could it still be prevented from release? Like a Microsoft employee couldn't just dump sections of the AI code to the internet I imagine.

    https://www.upcounsel.com/patents-trademarks-copyrights-and-trade-secrets

    Competitive advantage: Trade secrets can cover information that would not qualify for patents or copyright but still has economic value.

    I would imagine dumping Microsoft code to the internet would be sued under NDA

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago*

    The answer is that it's messy and that I'm not qualified to say where the line is (nor, I think, is anyone yet). The generated parts are not copyrightable, but you can still have a valid copyright by bringing together things that aren't individually copyrightable. For example, if I make a manga where Snow White fights Steamboat Willie, I've taken two public domain elements and used them to create a copyrightable work.

    So it's not like the usage of AI inherently makes a project uncopyrightable unless the entire thing or most of it was just spat out of a machine. Where's the line on this? Nobody (definitely not me, but probably nobody) really knows.

    As for courts ever finding out, how this affects trade secret policy... Dunno? I'm sure a Microsoft employee couldn't release it publicly, because as you said, it'd probably violate an NDA. If there were some civil case, the source may come out during discovery and could maybe be analysed programmatically or by an expert. You would probably subpoena the employee(s) who wrote the software and ask them to testify. This is just spitballing, though, over something that's probably inconsequential, because the end product is prooooobably still copyrightable.

    This kind of reminds me of the blurry line we have in FOSS, where everyone retains the copyright to their individual work. But if push comes to shove, how much does there need to be for it to be copyrightable? Where does it stop being a boilerplate for loop and start being creative expression?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (1 child)

    It begins by asking “whether the `work' is basically one of human authorship, with the computer [or other device] merely being an assisting instrument, or whether the traditional elements of authorship in the work (literary, artistic, or musical expression or elements of selection, arrangement, etc.) were actually conceived and executed not by man but by a machine.” [23]

    In the case of works containing AI-generated material, the Office will consider whether the AI contributions are the result of “mechanical reproduction” or instead of an author's “own original mental conception, to which [the author] gave visible form.” [24]

    The answer will depend on the circumstances, particularly how the AI tool operates and how it was used to create the final work.[25] This is necessarily a case-by-case inquiry.

    That's the rest of what you posted. I guess you just didn't read it, right? Even if it comes right after and is part of the same paragraph. What a joke.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    I clarified this a bit in a follow-up comment, but my first comment was simplifying for the sake of countering:

    [it's not in the public domain] because the actual human work that went into creating it was done by the owner of the AI Model and whatever they trained on.

    Their claim that the copyright for AI-generated works belongs to the model creator and the authors of the training material – and is never in the public domain – is patent, easily disprovable nonsense.

    Yes, I understand it's more nuanced than what I said. No, it's not nuanced in their favor. No, I'm not diving into that with a pathological liar (see their other comments) when it's immaterial to my rebuttal of their bullshit claim. I guess you just didn't read the claim I was addressing?

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  • [+] -10 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Technology is an extremely vague word in this context. If the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit has affirmed that then I haven't heard of it, it's not posted here, and most importantly: such rules are not currently enshrined in law.

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  • [+] -2 points 8 months ago (11 children)
  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    No it's that you're trying to walk back a provably false claim and then deflect the claims by pretending the people calling you out are doing so because they like AI instead of, you know, valuing the truth.

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  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    I walk back no claims. The AI Companies have more claim on ownership of the output than the public. Don't use Slop Code, it's not safe.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    Er, no - about it not being public domain. That's the claim you made that has been shown to be false. Trying to make it about AI being bad is the walking back.

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  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    AI Slop is not Public Domain. My statements have been consistent about that and remain true.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (6 children)

    Aight and the proof already provided shows that it is in fact considered to be in the public domain, which proves you're wrong.

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  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    I'm not going to go fishing around for the case you and technician are referring to, but if it's anything like OP's links then it doesn't say what you're claiming it says and/or isn't nearly as broad and all encompassing as you describe. I don't live in a nation ruled by the blog/tabloid "synthtopia".

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

    I mean sure you can ignore the court ruling, but here's the copyright office's guidance (which they also provided later in an edit) and it clarifies that AI generated work is not eligible for copyright

    When an AI technology determines the expressive elements of its output, the generated material is not the product of human authorship.[31]
    As a result, that material is not protected by copyright and must be disclaimed in a registration application.[32]

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    You're the second person I've replied to about that, but they give only two examples of image generation which were denied for claiming to contain absolutely no human authorship which can be considered subjective by the courts as digital camera output is copyrightable based on who presses the button, the office admits they are waiting for public input (the legislative body) on the matter, and also since this is the copyright office it has no bearing on other types of established property such as license or patent law.

    Until the laws clarify I say treat AI code as radioactive.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    That person was also me, funnily enough!


    since this is the copyright office it has no bearing on other types of established property such as license or patent law

    Buddy, patents are public domain. That's the whole point of a patent.

    As part of the terms of granting the patent to the inventor, patents are published into the public domain.


    the office admits they are waiting for public input (the legislative body) on the matter

    No they don't - they've published their current rules and state that those rules are their interpretation and those rules will stand until and unless further rulings or legislation comes out to change the situation. You know, how laws work?

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  • [–] 82 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    I think, to punish Micro$lop for its collaboration with fascists and its monopolistic behavior, the whole Windows codebase should be made public domain.

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  • [–] 40 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    does the public really want more garbage than they already has?

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    The kernel and NTFS seem decent from what i heard. Or at least was (the kernel, no guess what they vibecoded into it now).

    About NTFS: it was actually pretty good for it's time (90s), but the tooling makes no use of some of it's better features and abuses some others close to breaking point. Literally pearls for the sows.

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  • [–] 33 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Aren't you all forgetting the core meaning of open source? The source code is not openly accessible, thus it can't be FOSS or even OSS

    This just means microslop can't enforce their licenses, making it legal to pirate that shit

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It's just the code that's not under copyright, so if someone leaked it you could legally copy and distribute any parts which are AI generated but it wouldn't invalidate copyright on the official binaries.

    If all the code were AI generated (or enough of it to be able to fill in the blanks), you might be able to make a case that it's legal to build and distribute binaries, but why would you bother distributing that slop?

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  • [–] 30 points 8 months ago

    Stallman: "Oh man, not like this."

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  • [–] 71 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    That's not even remotely true....

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  • [–] 52 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    The law is very clear that non-human generated content cannot hold copyright.

    That monkey that took a picture of itself is a famous example.

    But yes, the OP is missing some context. If a human was involved, say in editing the code, then that edited code can be subject to copyright. The unedited code likely cannot.

    Human written code cannot be stripped of copyright protection regardless of how much AI garbage you shove in.

    Still, all of this is meaningless until a few court cases happen.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    So wait, if my start up does a human written "Hello World" and the rest is piled on AI slop it can't be stripped of copyright? Or is "Hello World" too generic to hold a copyright at all?

    Granted, as you said this all has to be defined and tested in court, I'm just trying to understand where the line as you see it is.

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  • [–] 48 points 8 months ago* (17 children)

    That sounds like complete bullshit to me. Even if the logic is sound, which I seriously doubt, if you use someone's code and you claim their license isn't valid because some part of the codebase is AI generated, I'm pretty sure you'll have to prove that. Good luck.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I work for a large enterprise firm, our corporate lawyer has told be about this exact scenario so I'm inclined to believe it's real.

    That being said, for established projects it won't be that hard to prove the non-AI bit because you have a long commit history that predates the tooling.

    Even if you were to assume that all commits after a certain date were AI generated, the OP is slightly off in their attestation that any AI code suddenly makes the whole thing public domain, it would only be if a majority of the codebase was AI coded (and provably so).

    So yes all the vibe coded shite is a lost cause, but stuff like Windows isn't in any danger.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I'll stay sceptical until there is court cases supporting this logic as a precedent.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I think that's actually quite sensible, our lawyer wasn't flagging some clear cut legal certainty, he was flagging risk.

    Risk can be mitigated, even if the chance of it panning out is slim.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    A bit besides the point, but it is pretty crazy to me that we're moving towards a world where if you create by yourself, you're outcompeted, but if you use AI like everyone else, you own nothing.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    There was a case in which a monkey took a picture and the owner of the camera wanted to publish the photo. Peta sued and lost because an animal can't hold any copyright as an human author is required for copyright.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute

    As you also find in the wikipedia article, this case is used to argue that ai generated content is not by an human author and consequently not copyrightable.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    I'd argue that this is a different scenario, as AI is a tool, not a being. At least at this point.

    A complex tool, but really just a tool. Without the human input, it can't do shit.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    There's already rulings on this holding that the prompt for all LLM or image generator isn't enough to count the result as the human's expression, thus no copyright (both in USA and other places)

    You need both human expression and creative height to get copyright protection

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Exactly. If I use online Photoshop or whatever, and I use the red eye removal tool, I have copyright on that picture. Same if I create a picture from scratch. Just because someone like OpenAI hosts a more complex generator doesn't mean a whole new class of rules applies.

    Whomever uses a tool, regardless of the complexity, is both responsible and benificiary of the result.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Not quite how copyright law works. Photoshop and similar gives you copyright because it captures your expression.

    An LLM is more like work-for-hire but unlike a human artist it doesn't qualify for copyright protection and therefore neither does you

    https://infosec.pub/comment/20390963

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    If there was an actual civil suit you'd probably be able to subpoena people for that information, and the standard is only more likely than not. I have no idea if the general idea is bullshit, though.

    IANAL

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    You forgot the heart

    I ♥️ ANAL

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    Would that be North African Lawyer, or North American Lawyer?

    In any case, we're splitting the cheque. /s

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago

    This reminds me of that scene in Breaking Bad where the two morons were talking about how if you ask an undercover cop if they're cop they legally have to tell you the truth

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago

    That's not what that research document says. Pretty early on it talks about rote mechanical processes with no human input. By the logic they employ there's no difference between LLM code and a photographer using Photoshop.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    By that same logic LLMs themselves (by now some AI bro had to vibe code something there) & their trained datapoints (which were on stolen data anyway) should be public domain.

    What revolutionary force can legislate and enforce this?? Pls!?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    By that same logic LLMs themselves (by now some AI bro had to vibe code something there)

    I'm guessing LLMs are still really really bad at that kind of programming. The packaging of the LLM, sure.

    & their trained datapoints

    For legal purposes, it seems like the weights would be generated by the human-made training algorithm. I have no idea if that's copyrightable under US law. The standard approach seems to be to keep them a trade secret and pretend there's no espionage, though.

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