you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[+] -12 points 8 months ago (33 children)

The part that is untrue is the "public domain" part. If you generate code then you don't own it because the actual human work that went into creating it was done by the owner of the AI Model and whatever they trained on.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 33 child comments
  • [–] 31 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (14 children)

    Iirc it's even funnier: the relevant case law comes from Naruto v Slater. A case about a monkey taking a selfie and a photographer failing to acquire copyright of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute).

    The copyright belonged to whoever shot the selfie, but because it was the monkey and animals aren't juristic entities, they can not hold copyright. Therefore, as it stands and as new case law outlines, AIs are compared to monkeys, in that the copyright would fall onto them but it's not a juristic entities either, and therefore copyright just vanishes and no one can claim it.

    The wikipedia page suggests current cases on generative AI directly build on this.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago

    It was an especially interesting case because there was a question of whether the photographer lied about who actually took the picture. So he could either claim the monkey took it an lose the copyright or claim he took it and have it lose all value.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    See that's kind of what I'm talking about. The monkeys who pressed the buttons to make the AI Generate the code isn't the computer, it isn't the user, it's the employees at the AI company. My advice is that until laws are properly in place that we shouldn't use AI for any generative industry.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    The AI company didn't do shit. They stole apples from someone elses tree and threw it in a blender. They didn't make the apples, nor did they buy them, so they don't legally own the juice.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    While I agree with the general idea, please don't call piracy "stealing". It's not stealing, whether you do it or some giant corpo.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    While I agree², their use of "steal" makes sense in the analogy because the apple doesn't belong to the "thief"; besides, you can't pirate an apple

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Evidently you can!

    “Apple piracy is a problem,” said Lynnell Brandt, chief executive officer of Proprietary Variety Management, the Yakima firm hired to handle the Cosmic Crisp rollout. “Some are propagating trees without permission. Some are stolen in the middle of the night.”

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    If the AI produces verbatim the licensed works of others then the others own it.

    If the AI took individual unlicensed elements and pieced them together then the AI Company owns it.

    In any and every case, neither the User nor the Public Domain owns it. Moral of the story is: never use AI for anything.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    The AI company stole other people's code, threw it into a blender, and is selling the output. They didn't do any real work, and they don't own the materials. They have no legal claim over the result. You do not own a car you made from stolen parts, no matter how many cars you stole from.

    Stop trying to imply your buddies at AI companies have value.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    We appear to be talking in circles.

    I'm literally sitting here telling people it isn't safe to use AI Code, you're doing the opposite, and you're accusing me of being buddies with the Slop Companies?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Yes. You're giving the companies WAY too much credit for owning the blender they throw stolen content into, and you're even trying to give them ownership of what clearly doesn't belong to them. I'm sure they're just as eager to claim they did all the work and license the materials they use as you are.

    I try not to call people idiots in debates, so there's really only one reason you'd be giving them so much support.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago

    I guarantee you that the AI Companies don't give a single fuck about our opinion on copyrightable status, they've made an industry off of ignoring copyright laws entirely, and are instead salivating at the idea of a bunch of fucking idiots putting their slop code in everything so that they can try to enforce rights on it later.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    No one who matters is claiming openAI owns the stuff their product outputs. Is would be social suicide to claim such things with the popularly accepted position that LLM companies improperly trained their LLMs on copyright works

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (17 children)

    You're just making shit up. The US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit has affirmed that AI-generated work is in the public domain. Put up or shut up.


    Edit: Additionally, the US Copyright Office writes:

    As the agency overseeing the copyright registration system, the [Copyright] Office has extensive experience in evaluating works submitted for registration that contain human authorship combined with uncopyrightable material, including material generated by or with the assistance of technology.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    How does this work in practice? Someone would have to prove that it's AI generated, which isn't straight forward.

    Also, I'm not clear this protects the release of code centered a trade secret or under NDA.

    So while the court ruled it's public domain. Could it still be prevented from release? Like a Microsoft employee couldn't just dump sections of the AI code to the internet I imagine.

    https://www.upcounsel.com/patents-trademarks-copyrights-and-trade-secrets

    Competitive advantage: Trade secrets can cover information that would not qualify for patents or copyright but still has economic value.

    I would imagine dumping Microsoft code to the internet would be sued under NDA

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago*

    The answer is that it's messy and that I'm not qualified to say where the line is (nor, I think, is anyone yet). The generated parts are not copyrightable, but you can still have a valid copyright by bringing together things that aren't individually copyrightable. For example, if I make a manga where Snow White fights Steamboat Willie, I've taken two public domain elements and used them to create a copyrightable work.

    So it's not like the usage of AI inherently makes a project uncopyrightable unless the entire thing or most of it was just spat out of a machine. Where's the line on this? Nobody (definitely not me, but probably nobody) really knows.

    As for courts ever finding out, how this affects trade secret policy... Dunno? I'm sure a Microsoft employee couldn't release it publicly, because as you said, it'd probably violate an NDA. If there were some civil case, the source may come out during discovery and could maybe be analysed programmatically or by an expert. You would probably subpoena the employee(s) who wrote the software and ask them to testify. This is just spitballing, though, over something that's probably inconsequential, because the end product is prooooobably still copyrightable.

    This kind of reminds me of the blurry line we have in FOSS, where everyone retains the copyright to their individual work. But if push comes to shove, how much does there need to be for it to be copyrightable? Where does it stop being a boilerplate for loop and start being creative expression?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (1 child)

    It begins by asking “whether the `work' is basically one of human authorship, with the computer [or other device] merely being an assisting instrument, or whether the traditional elements of authorship in the work (literary, artistic, or musical expression or elements of selection, arrangement, etc.) were actually conceived and executed not by man but by a machine.” [23]

    In the case of works containing AI-generated material, the Office will consider whether the AI contributions are the result of “mechanical reproduction” or instead of an author's “own original mental conception, to which [the author] gave visible form.” [24]

    The answer will depend on the circumstances, particularly how the AI tool operates and how it was used to create the final work.[25] This is necessarily a case-by-case inquiry.

    That's the rest of what you posted. I guess you just didn't read it, right? Even if it comes right after and is part of the same paragraph. What a joke.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    I clarified this a bit in a follow-up comment, but my first comment was simplifying for the sake of countering:

    [it's not in the public domain] because the actual human work that went into creating it was done by the owner of the AI Model and whatever they trained on.

    Their claim that the copyright for AI-generated works belongs to the model creator and the authors of the training material – and is never in the public domain – is patent, easily disprovable nonsense.

    Yes, I understand it's more nuanced than what I said. No, it's not nuanced in their favor. No, I'm not diving into that with a pathological liar (see their other comments) when it's immaterial to my rebuttal of their bullshit claim. I guess you just didn't read the claim I was addressing?

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -10 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Technology is an extremely vague word in this context. If the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit has affirmed that then I haven't heard of it, it's not posted here, and most importantly: such rules are not currently enshrined in law.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [+] -2 points 8 months ago (11 children)
  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    No it's that you're trying to walk back a provably false claim and then deflect the claims by pretending the people calling you out are doing so because they like AI instead of, you know, valuing the truth.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    I walk back no claims. The AI Companies have more claim on ownership of the output than the public. Don't use Slop Code, it's not safe.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    Er, no - about it not being public domain. That's the claim you made that has been shown to be false. Trying to make it about AI being bad is the walking back.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    AI Slop is not Public Domain. My statements have been consistent about that and remain true.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (6 children)

    Aight and the proof already provided shows that it is in fact considered to be in the public domain, which proves you're wrong.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    I'm not going to go fishing around for the case you and technician are referring to, but if it's anything like OP's links then it doesn't say what you're claiming it says and/or isn't nearly as broad and all encompassing as you describe. I don't live in a nation ruled by the blog/tabloid "synthtopia".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

    I mean sure you can ignore the court ruling, but here's the copyright office's guidance (which they also provided later in an edit) and it clarifies that AI generated work is not eligible for copyright

    When an AI technology determines the expressive elements of its output, the generated material is not the product of human authorship.[31]
    As a result, that material is not protected by copyright and must be disclaimed in a registration application.[32]

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    You're the second person I've replied to about that, but they give only two examples of image generation which were denied for claiming to contain absolutely no human authorship which can be considered subjective by the courts as digital camera output is copyrightable based on who presses the button, the office admits they are waiting for public input (the legislative body) on the matter, and also since this is the copyright office it has no bearing on other types of established property such as license or patent law.

    Until the laws clarify I say treat AI code as radioactive.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    That person was also me, funnily enough!


    since this is the copyright office it has no bearing on other types of established property such as license or patent law

    Buddy, patents are public domain. That's the whole point of a patent.

    As part of the terms of granting the patent to the inventor, patents are published into the public domain.


    the office admits they are waiting for public input (the legislative body) on the matter

    No they don't - they've published their current rules and state that those rules are their interpretation and those rules will stand until and unless further rulings or legislation comes out to change the situation. You know, how laws work?

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)