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[–] 98 points 10 months ago (12 children)

"Then I might be in need of actual medication to address my headaches, sweating and nausea."

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  • [–] 39 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    It's actually not uncommon. People expect and manifest symptoms all the time.

    What side effects a drug would be likely to cause, the pharmacologist likely knows long before ever giving it to a human. When the human reports side effects that the drug is unlikely to cause...that human was probably a placebo.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    So i can get a headache only by placebo?? Wait, can it happen in reverse? Like, i have an headache and i convince mysef that i took a cure for it

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Placebo can work even if you're aware it's a placebo.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    important note:

    placebo is caused by a strong belief, even if logically you know it's not real it can still work

    but

    you first need the strong belief. how do you get such a strong belief? with a ritual of course. not necessarily one with bubbling cauldrons during the full moon (though if you believe in that kind of magic that'd work as well) but one that has you going to a place you associate with health, and talking to a person in a special outfit that you believe will fix you, then going to a secondary health place, and getting the health potion pills from someone in a special outfit. also called - going to a doctor and picking up meds from a pharmacy.

    this entire process sets up the right environment for strongly believing you're going to feel better now, and then the sugar pills supercharged with placebo will work like magic.

    they will also work if at some point either the doctor or the pharmacist whispers to you "btw that's just placebo". that's because the belief you've already established is much stronger than your logic

    but if you just go out and buy tictacs at a gas station then chant to yourself "this will cure my headache this will cure my headache" it won't work, because you didn't have an opportunity to establish any emotional belief about them ie. you didn't manage to convince the emotional part of your brain that it'll work

    this is also why homeopathy, essential oils, charging crystals, and other purely belief bases approaches work despite the thing itself not doing anything. the rituals surrounding those things simply manage to build a strong enough belief that causes the placebo effect

    the same is true for the opposite - nocebo - if you strongly believe something is going to make you feel bad - it's going to

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Most people believe red painkillers work better than other colours. Because of that when painkillers are tested, red ones work better (and red placebos also). You might find the placebo effect of red painkillers effective

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, and there's actually some interesting results from this too. Pain medicine marketed as targeting specific pains, such as headaches or toothaches, are often just generic ibuprofen or acetaminophen, but there is some evidence that the pain medicine will be more effective if you believe it is targeting your specific pain. So whenever my wife wants an Advil I always tell her that it's a special Advil that is for whatever specific thing she complained about.

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  • [–] 67 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    "I don't know why you guys are happy. The gold standard is double-blind, and you couldn't even do that."

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  • [–] 31 points 10 months ago

    This is kind of unfair because in properly done trials patients are told to report all symptoms they experienced in the period whether or not they think it was caused by the drug. Then you compare possible side effect incidence between the placebo and treatment group. And any statistically significant difference is very likely the side effect of the drug. (Humans are pretty bad with causality, so it works a lot more accurately this way, especially in well powered studies).

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  • [–] 29 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Maybe he's allergic to what the placebo was made of.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago
    16 comments in c/comicstrips@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 79 points 10 months ago

    Double blind trials should be called "Trick or Treatment"

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  • [–] 60 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    And that, children, is why you double blind

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  • [–] 50 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Twist: those are psych researchers, and he is in the experimental group.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Double twist: he's the actual psych researcher and they're the research subjects.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Triple twist: They're all just cartoon drawings, and we're the research subjects.

    & we don't get to see the psych researchers.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago*

    This thread reminds me of an Asimov short story where someone discovers that humor is just a vehicle for psychological experimentation being done on humans by an extraterrestrial intelligence. Now that humans know where jokes come from, it's no longer a useful tool to the observers and is removed from the testing environment...

    "The gift of humor is gone," said Trask drearily. "No man
    will ever laugh again."
    And they remained there, staring, feeling the world shrink
    down to the dimensions of an experimental rat cage---with
    the maze removed and something, something about to be put in its place.

    http://blog.ac-versailles.fr/villaroylit/public/Jokester.pdf

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  • [–] 29 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    Sometimes I think about the opposite where a patient is given placebo and then is cured. Imagine living the rest of your life knowing for certain that your body could cure whatever ailment it's going through but it's like naaah

    Would legit drive people to deep spiritualism if not religion.

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  • [–] [S] 23 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Well, not if they understand how double-blind studies work and can distinguish causality from correlation. People constantly get sick and get better without medication. The aim of such studies is to find out whether the medication performs better than no medication. In other words, the aim is to rule out the coincidence that illnesses often get better without treatment.

    Of course, this does not mean that your body can cure “whatever ailment.” Self-healing, chance and coincidence do exist. There is no reason to become religious over it.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, I'm very well aware how double blind works and my point is exactly related to your 2nd paragraph. Be it coincidence or actual real placebo caused healing (which happens) it would be a major perspective trauma and it definitely happens!

    Personally I do think that mental states absolutely impact biology through many invisible forces like hormone production and behavior. So getting a placebo and believing that it works can stimulate specific hormone production or healthy behaviors like going for a jog which ends up legit healing the person. It's easy to see how this could lead someone to a more spiritual or religious point of view because in this experience something like "faith" is legitimately healing them tho not in the way they think.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Mental states are biology. That there can be broader impact on the rest of our body is hardly surprising.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    The shit they put in those placebos to rig trials... eesh.

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago

    that is why placeboing is unethical

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