She's utterly wrong. Take Robin Williams as an example: he was famous, rich, loved by everybody, stupendously funny. Still had depression. Still suffered.

It has nothing to do with people's "value" or their work ethic.

That statement has as much empirical evidence behind it as stating that depression is caused by the lost souls of dead aliens from an ancient federation killed by an evil overlord being stuck to your person and generating negative thoughts as a result of their traumatic death.

Hitchen’s Razor is your ally; what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Tell your mom some random on the internet told her she can eat a bag of dicks.

My rebuttal is that your mom's a bitch and there's no reason to pay attention to anything she says.

1. All humans have an inherent value.
2. Depression has numerous contributing environmental, social, and biological factors.
3. Who asked bitch? Shut your dumb ass up.

tell her to remember that as she ages and her "value" declines

Your mom is an asshole.

Stop talking to your mother. She is a bad person and will have negative effects on your mental health.

Your mom's a cunt.

There's no rebuttal. Some people are just wrong and honestly better of out of your life.

Also, I can't imagine she's just a great, enriching person except for those two opinions.

Prune her of your life.

You cannot logically rebut a bad worldview. Plant seeds of doubt, protect yourself, and move on.

Sorry to break it to you, your mom is an asshole.

Ask he what she thinks narcissism is.

I'd tell them to shut the fuck up and not to speak that way about people in my presence.

My parents try to bait me into silly and shitty discussions like this, usually prompted by some conservative bullshit they saw on their preferred news program, and I just very simply say: "We can't discuss this because it is going to make me hate you." That's been enough to put an end to it for me.

My rebuttal would be "people without empathy don't deserve to live either, but I'll spare you this time mother." Yeah, I don't see eye to eye with my mom much.

She's been brainwashed into thinking that only people who contribute to capitalism have value.

Every time that philosophy has been implemented it has resulted in mass death and social collapse. Meanwhile when "useless" people are given tools and resources some of them wind up less useless.

Isaac Newton was probably autistic with bad enough social skills he was generally despised. Stephen Hawking had ALS. There are cultures who would have declared both of them useless and unfit for life. Hell Hellen Keller was an author and important political activist (cofounder of the ACLU) despite being deaf blind, because people gave her a chance and worked with her to learn a form of communication that worked for her.

Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.

You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).

There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.

That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.

Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.

She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.

You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.

You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.

I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.

Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.

You can't argue a person out of an irrational view.

Explaining brain chemistry and how dopamine works won't do it.

A belief like that is a way of signalling membership in an identity that the individual thinks benefits them. It's unlikely to change until that identity stops looking beneficial.

Agree with her. Then say all these old and retired people aren't contributing to the economy anymore and don't deserve to live. Then you ask her how old she is, for effect.

"why aren't you a millionaire? Hard work brings wealth. Lazy people like you don't have much value I guess."

Assuming you want to burn that bridge.

You don't need to waste your time or mental energy rebutting things that are obviously ridiculous.

"OK, Boomer. "

Your mom doesn't have enough value worth your time. You don't change hearts and minds like these. These kinds of people don't change until shit personally affects them, because your mom is an asshole.

So the Nazi stance, basically.

Honestly, I'll take that over people who say depressed/disabled people have rights, but also don't want to actually provide any kind of means for them to exist. Both lack compassion, but one is honest about it.

I don't think your mom has value. Guess I get to execute her if I want, and she doesn't get to whine about it.

Why does your mom think she can decide who deserves to live?

I hope your parents are divorced and you can stay with your dad. If not, find someone else to stay with. Your mom is about as healthy as HIV.

My rebuttal is she's an asshole and should shut the fuck up

Your mother is an ignorant person.

You’re mom’s an awful eugenics supporting cunt who isn’t worth speaking to and you would be better off cutting all contact than even looking at her.

Oh, she's in for a rude awakening one day

I don't think I'd have a rebuttal.

She might have had a hard life, dealt with a similar kind of depression that you have, and developed these maladaptive views as a way to get herself through dark times.

I know your mom isn't going to see a therapist, but I don't see how arguing with someone who has calcified mental trauma is going to help.

prove to me that you have value

And then demand that she proves every turtle on the way down. Money is not an indication of value because it has no inherent worth, etc.

Demand that she proves that your value is attributable to her and is not inherent to you. Etc.

Why rebut it? You aren't going to use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get to. Especially someone that probably thinks you owe them your existence. You'll never win that argument, don't ask me how I know.

If you're still living at home, make it priority to determine a way to make it on your own ASAP, or be prepared to eat shit until you figure that out.

my rebuttal would be to cut her entirely out of my life.

You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.

You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.

Wow. Your mom has horrible opinions. If she has a lot more opinions on the same level, I'd cut ties altogether.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that sort of toxicity in your family. There is no good rebuttal because it just seems like a lack of empathy, no one can make her care.

I'm sure that's rough for you. Wishing you happy holidays despite this callus friction. 💜❤️♥️😘

Well, what is value ? What's her "value" ?

Helping others is of enormous value.

Nothing, someone with that world view isn't worth talking to. I've argued with enough brick walls in my life to recognize one.

Who is she to decide who deserves to live? God?

Of course, I'd hesitate to accept such a judgment from a god who presumably made those people that way. That would be a dick move.

As for pronouncements about mental health, I will accept citations, or maybe credentials. With neither, hers have no value.

1. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't care enough to think critically about the situation. If you play chess with a pigeon, the outcome of the game doesn't matter. Its still gonna shit on the board and strut around like it won.

2. I know you didn't ask, but find you some green spaces. Depression isn't a choice, but choosing to be depressed in a less depressing place is. Control what you can.

Measuring people by what they can give to others or to capitalism is utterly wrong. EVERYONE has value to someone else.

"And what exactly makes YOU valuable?"

Ask her what "value" is.

Tell your mom I don't see her value, she should consider seizing existence at my most earliest convenience. Seems fair?

Mostly joking but wtf is this cruel take from her? I'm sorry if you're having to battle this with her if you're struggling with things like depression anxiety

This sounds like psychopathy (also a trait of borderline and narcissism, although there's an argument to be made that psychopaths are distinct from those).

I wouldn't expect a logic based rebuttal to work - all of these conditions are essentially emotional in nature, compensating for a negative past (shame) or compensating for a negative future (generalised anxiety).

This compensation is specifically grandiosity - a cognitive distortion to set themselves up as superior in their own minds, such that they no longer need to be ashamed or anxious.

Contempt is a manifestation of grandiosity, or more precisely a reaction to shame, transforming the realisation of their perceived inferiority in the past or future into the delusion of superiority.

No rebuttal necessary. Anyone that shitty isn’t worth having a conversation with at all.

"What the fuck is wrong with you??"

This won’t help your mom, she won’t change her mind and will try to drag the argument or will just attack until everything is destroyed. But here’s a clear rebuttal of the idea.

The failure of demanding everyone showing worth is determining what is worth and who gets to define and assign it. Every petty warlord believes they are the one to decide… and oh gee, amazing how they have the most worth.

If you tell your mom you will only accept her argument if she accepts you have more worth than her - and demonstrates it to you every day - it will probably make her go no contact until she needs you again for emotional affirmation.

Depression is real, I don’t have it but it’s real and I have friends that deal with it as part of their lives. It sounds like getting out of your mom’s sewer might help, but you might need medication as well.

She is obviously mentally ill. She lacks the ability to empathize with others so she very well may be a psychopath or have a cluster b personality disorder. My advice is that she should see a therapist and if she doesn’t you should minimize contact or cut her off because she’s obviously very toxic

Other option, Louis Theroux that shit

Just don't react, but keep asking "why" type questions, again, just acting interested, like you think they could convince you if they're just explain it better.

Make them try to argue their own way into a hole until they're either so pissed off they drop it, or they start to disbelief their own thoughts.

It works cause you're not arguing against stupid that way, you're making stupid argue against itself, and nothing beats that

"ok boomer"

There is no teaching those who have no interest in learning.

Your mom is unfortunately mentally ill. Whether from upbringing or from organic damage to the brain... who knows. There's really not much you can do about it - parents especially are highly unlikely to listen to advice or anything from their children. Try to remove yourself from your mother as far as possible. Minimal communication, minimal contact.

There have been some very helpful replies already so I'm just going to add this:

Imagine if your kids came to you and told you they were depressed (if you don't have kids, imagine you do and you love them very much).

Then imagine that -of all the things you could possibly say to them- you chose to tell them what your mother told you.

How would you feel about yourself as a parent (or even as a human being) if you did that? Essentially calling your own children worthless for being sick?

It's ok to feel that same way about your mother.

It's projection. She knows that in her retirement she has stopped "providing value". I doubt she paid you for the ad-hoc legal and accounting work you did for her, so she is happy for you to provide value without compensation. I would simply tell her that if she doesn't want to have to find her own retirement home she needs to start paying for your services. This is the kind of person who thinks value is what you pay for, so long as she isn't paying you she isn't valuing what you do for her. The whole "you are a negative value" is exactly what she is to you, she is taxing your time, energy and emotions to make up for some perceived economic loss for raising a child she chose to have.

tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?

regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?

fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.

Don’t feed the trolls. I know she’s your mom, but not everyone deserves a response. If she keeps on you, just wave her away with “I heard you”.

Don't argue, she's obviously toxic. Leave her life. The furthest away you can. People who think like that just abuse and ruin others, and if you're at the point where you wonder whether she's using "special techniques" or smthg, it means she got to your mental health. See a therapist to mend what was broken, and get away from this toxic woman.

That value is subjective, and that it sounds like her thinking of it as an objective metric makes her a horrible person.

Also, obligatory aside, seeing as this is the internet: I didn't fuck your mom. Nor would I; She sounds awful.