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[–] 143 points 11 months ago (16 children)

Things like insurance, home and auto need to government run and not for profit

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  • [–] 88 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    insurance, home and auto

    And the biggest one: health

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  • [–] 47 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    True, sorry, I'm fortunate enough to live in a single payer Healthcare country. Although it desperately needs reform, vision and dental aren't really covered

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  • [–] 30 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    can't look at bad teeth if you don't have any eyes!

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Annnnnd if you can't eat, you'll die so you don't need to see anything anyway!

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  • [–] 45 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Single payer insurance of any type pulls from a far larger pool than any company could have, lowering the individual cost and allowing a bigger risk coverage. But... what about all those insurance companies (of all types), as well as other industries that rely on the increased costs? How will they survive? /s

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Ahhh I'm sorry! I forgot about the poor shareholders! Forgive me!

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)

    Home insurance should absolutely NOT be government wrong. That's just government sponsored building in flood zones at that point

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  • [–] 59 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Then if you are in an accident or something happens to your car, they'll try not to pay out and even if they do, they'll make you pay even more every month, regardless of whether the accident was your fault or not. Oh and you have to have it where I live or you're breaking the law.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Where I live, you can choose to not have it as long as you take $50,000 and put it into a bank account and secure it and not touch that $50,000 as long as you are driving without insurance.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    It doesn't really matter either way. If you have 50k cash or a 50k insurance limit. The other party can settle for 50k or they can try to get more through sueing you. If they get a judgement for more than 50k (likely after years) then you have to pay, but if you don't have a million dollars, they aren't getting it anyway. From there they can agree to a payment plan or try to garnish wages or place line.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Sounds wild to me. In UK the third party liability insurance limit is usually in the millions.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    It's the difference between minimums and maximums. In most American states you have to have $50,000 worth of liability insurance to legally drive, which covers the majority of financial consequences for accidents.

    That being said, now that cheap cars are $35,000 brand new, it might be a smart thing if you're an American driver to have $100,000 or $125,000 worth of liability insurance to keep yourself from going bankrupt.

    The extra $100 a year for that coverage would totally be worth it if you ever have to use it.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Also they will arbitrarily decide how much your car was worth. Did proactive maintenance and no accidents? Cool, now it's assessed to be the same as if you had six unrepaired fender benders and kept raccoons in the back seat.

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  • [–] 95 points 11 months ago (17 children)

    The biggest thing with auto insurance isn't covering your car, it's covering the cost of whatever you hit sueing you.

    Your car may only be worth $3,000, but if you hit a pedestrian and they require a dozen surgeries and are wheelchair bound for life, you bet you're ass you're getting sued for a few million in medical costs.

    In a reasonable country, those medical costs would be free, but since they're not you need some sort of protection against once accident bankrupting you in civil suits.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    I never really thought about that before. That's probably why america hasn't had healthcare for all, the insurance companies are lobbying (bribing) the shit out of the republicans.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Health insurance companies are lobbying the shit out of both parties. Car insurance companies would love universal healthcare. It would drop their outlays which would increase their profits.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I DETEST both-sides-ism, but yeah actually in this case, both sides are being bribed and blocking true progress, just the paid off Democrats have been doing it more quietly by slow playing and avoiding real single payer solutions when the party actually has power.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Why is car insurance so expensive in all the other countries then?

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  • [–] 39 points 11 months ago

    In addition to what everyone else said, property damage is a big part of it as well.

    Let's say you run into a building and knock out a load bearing wall. Or plough through a business or government office. It's not impossible to rack up a couple million in damages if you crash bad enough.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Real answer: in most other countries you can be punitively sued, ex: if a person wants to recoup the emotional damages from being crippled. You can also, depending on the country, be made to cover the cost of services provided by the medical system if you were found to be at fault (I don't know how often that happens for an individual vs. a large company, but that's how the rates were explained to me by a UK colleague)

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    In a reasonable country, public insurance would charge your auto insurance to recover costs. The harms and risks of car ownership don't need further subsidies

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  • [–] 37 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    One car insurance company where I live operates kinda like this. USAA.

    Every subscriber is a member. Every year, after they pay operating costs, they take the money left over from premiums and put it into accounts distributed across all the members. When you reach a certain age you can withdraw the money accumulated in your account.

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  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    I haven't heard of this. What's this benefit called?

    Edit: I should take one minute before asking questions.

    Member-Owned Structure: Unlike a publicly traded company that pays dividends to stockholders, USAA is a reciprocal interinsurance exchange, meaning its members are also its owners. Profits, after expenses and reserve requirements are met, are returned to members.

    Subscriber Savings Account (SSA): A small percentage of the property and casualty insurance premiums paid by an eligible member is retained by USAA and allocated to an SSA in their name.

    Annual Distributions: The USAA Board of Directors decides each year how much capital is needed for reserves. Any excess is distributed back to members from their SSA. This distribution amount can vary annually based on factors like the company's financial performance and the member's longevity and account balance.

    Payout Options: Members typically have the option to: Apply the distribution to their insurance premiums. Receive the funds via direct deposit or check

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  • [–] 35 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    The idea is that what you pay goes to a fund that is used when the insurer has to pay a client, therefore socialising the costs of fixing whatever the clients insured.

    If every client could get their money back, the company would likely have less money available for the payouts (and would risk everyone taking their money out once a big payout is due), and might go bankrupt if too many payouts come up at once.

    So instead the idea is that ideally you end up paying less than you'd get if you needed to fix whatever you're insured for... but it's like a bet: you bet that shit'll happen before you've paid more, the insurer bets that it won't.

    Of course, though, like in all businesses based on gambling the house always wins.

    Even if they weren't scamming you, they've got actuarial tables telling them how much you have to pay to make sure they'll have a certain amount of profit... but of course they are scamming you, and they'll do everything possible to avoid paying you even in the unlikely event that you fall on the wrong side of the actuarial table.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Actuarial tables are only used on life (life, retirement, workers compensation, health insurance) on top of them you need guaranteed interest rate and that give the risk price, but can be mathematically prove that charging only the risk price the insurance company eventually is going to fail, so an actuarial rate is added to avoid that. On top of that, another rate is added for administrative costs and "cost of capital" AKA profit for the shareholders. Finally, comercial costs are added and that's the price you pay.

    For casualty (no life) the risk price is probability of event × cost of event, the rest is the same.

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  • [–] 20 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Insurance is a brilliant, beautiful idea. People come together to pool resources so that in the rare event that a catastrophe befalls someone, that unlucky person does not lose everything.

    The idea of insurance went wrong when for-profit companies were allowed to get involved. Public insurance is cheaper and better. I'm not sure if it is still the case today, but until a few years ago public insurance in Saskatchewan cost a couple hundred bucks a year while people in other provinces were paying $1500 for the same coverage.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Can confirm, SGI still exists in Saskatchewan. It is definitely more than a couple hundred bucks a year but it is nice knowing that they don't make a profit. They sent everyone a rebate a few years ago because they had a surplus

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  • [–] 19 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Wait to get hit?

    I don't think you're doing it right.

    Step 1 make sure you have gap insurance.

    Step 2 never make more than the minimum car payment.

    Step 3 when your ready for a new car, side swipe a car on the left and drive into a brick wall on the right. Make sure there are no cameras.

    Step 4 enjoy your new car.

    Step 5 commit identity fraud so you can keep a low insurance premium!

    Step 6 do none of this because it's all crimes. I really hope you read the instructions to the end before starting.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    I really hope you read the instructions to the end before starting.

    "Remove the diskette from its protective envelope" (it stayed in the box)
    "Take the diskette by one of its corners" ("What corners, it's round?")

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago

    There is plenty to criticise about insurance companies, how did they stumble upon the one thing that is fine?

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  • [–] 22 points 11 months ago* (10 children)

    How about the fact that home insurance doesn't cover preventative care. We had a branch fall on our roof and the insurance had to pay out to get that part of the roof fixed. I pointed out that there's another dead branch up there that I'm a little concerned about hitting the roof, and maybe they would prefer to pay a few hundred to get a guy up there to remove the branch than a few thousand to get the roof repaired the next time, and the insurance company said absolutely not.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  • [–] 26 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    Insurance is about compensation for loss, and that's it. It's not their job to keep your house safe, that's still on you. It's their job to give you money if something happens beyond your control. Now that you mentioned that other branch, you should probably take care of it, if it falls they could deny your claim since you were negligent in preventing a known risk.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago* (5 children)

    Insurance is about compensation for loss, and that’s it.

    That's certainly not true of medical insurance. Preventative care is part of the whole package. In fact, certain preventative care is encouraged. Health insurance companies are more than happy to pay for UTIs, for instance, because they're so much cheaper than pregnancies.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    That's only in countries with sane health insurance. In America quarter profit seeking insurance, preventive care is a short term loss and therefore not paid, even when they affect long term profits.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Insurance provider in my area has premium discounts if I do certain things. If I get my boilers checked and serviced, it reduces my premium next year. And cases as dead branch falling, they have a form that I can fill up to send for review, however in reality they will wait for the annual home inspection before renewal to asses threat, but they would pay for dead branch to be removed.

    A bloke down my street had a tree growing too close to electrical wire and he kept complaining to the electric company to trim the tree or risk a fire to no avail. Then he told this to the insurance and they sent a strongly worded letter prompting electrical company to fix it in 2 days.

    Also I have some experience with flood risk underwriting in Malaysia, we'd pay to have Strom drains cleaned, and fix some supports for buildings who we'd deem flood prone, because fixing those would be a 1-2% cost of replacing the entire house.

    Point being insurance providers definitely can and do spend money on preventative care. I guess US very strongly doesn't believe in that.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Theoretically speaking. They should've just raised your rates. Since your house is at higher risk than they thought. But should offer a rate decrease if you maintain your surrounding trees.

    Unless that information doesn't change how risky they think your house is, therefore theoretically "correct" thing to do is what they did, nothing.

    They are insurance companies. They basically bet that you'll be lucky. They don't want to lower the risk. Paying insurance companies is what you do when you want to lower the risk, and that would cut into their margins.

    And yes, there are insurance companies for insurance companies.

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  • [+] 29 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (22 children)
  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Exactly. Insurance is best thought of as similar to gambling, but functionally the opposite. It's "I'm giving you $x per month knowing that I'm probably going to lose money on this exchange, but in return if I'm hit with y disaster that it would be very difficult to financially recover from then you pay for it".

    I get that some people are frustrated by it during financial squeezes, and with liability insurance it can be annoying as it's mandatory. But as someone who's gotten a renter's insurance payout, the relief of "thank fuck I'm not out thousands of dollars while having to deal with this disaster" is immense

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I can't fault people for being confused or frustrated when we also have insurance that's intended to work as the primary means of payment.

    Having our crap tastic excuse for a medical payment system be based in insurance, and then having another mandatory insurance system that's somehow less helpful is reasonably frustrating.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    That's fair, and yeah I'm all in for replacing the health insurance system with single payer, but I find it difficult to picture a better system for car based risks without removing cars from the equation. The alternatives involve pushing some of the financial costs of driving onto people who create less of these costs. It's why bad drivers have to get more expensive insurance and may struggle to get insured by the medium or low cost insurers.

    Additionally home insurance is rapidly becoming more frustrating to people in many places thanks to climate change. The actuarial tables don't lie, and seeing as destructive weather events are making many places more prone to disaster, insurers are going to find themselves taking the emotional blame, especially when many people refuse to believe that the climate has changed.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Not necessarily saying our system is wrong, just that the systems being so different can make people confused. :)

    The alternatives involve pushing some of the financial costs of driving onto people who create less of these costs

    I mean, our current model does that. All insurance does. You pool costs with the expectation that most people won't need as much as they put in.
    A significant amount of our costs are based on statistical, not individual, risks. A 23 year old male is going to be charged more for car insurance regardless of their driving record.

    A better system might just be universal car insurance via vehicle registration. Bigger pool, easier to accommodate people who can't afford adequate coverage, and it better ensures everyone's cost is covered.
    It's also nice to not have a law forcing people to buy a product from a private company.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    I think of insurance as a cost limitation device. In case of disaster it limits the potential costs to something manageable in exchange for a manageable monthly payment. As you acquire more expensive things (house, car, etc.) those potential costs expand significantly. With vehicles your car insurance also covers some medical expenses after an accident, as well as covering any other partie's vehicles and medical costs should that be the direction the claim goes

    I can pay a couple thousand dollars a year to insure my house but I definitely couldn't have paid the 40k out of pocket to replace my roof, siding, a couple of doors and windows and repaint the garage after a recent hail storm. Every vehicle I've lost to nature's chaos had a loan tied to it which would've been very difficult to both continue to pay back and repair/replace the vehicles. Insurance limited those costs

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    That's a good model to think of it. Insurance originated as mutual aid and I'm very in support of not for profit insurance as a concept. Like, what you're actually paying is the price of catastrophe times the odds of it in the given time plus administrative and profit costs. What that all means is that if you can't afford it, then you really can't afford to not have it should you need it.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    That's exactly how it started! People would go to a major bookmaker like Lloyd's coffee shop and place a bet against themselves. So you would bet that your ship would sink or your house would burn down or that you would suffer a crop failure. Then if the bad thing happened you would win the bet.

    Of course, if the odds are close the bet would be very expensive, so you'd have to do monthly financing. But what if the catastrophic event happens before the bet is fully paid?

    Somebody had the genius idea to pool everybody's bet and run the odds.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    You still have to pay for insurance even with the fund though. It's required by law.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    It probably varies based on states but in CA you can put a deposit in with the DMV in lieu of getting insurance. The deposit would be used for any damages you are liable for. I don't remember the amount but it made insurance seem like a better deal to me personally since the coverages went way beyond the deposit amount.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    The requirement is "proof of financial responsibility" not "insurance" specifically. Every state allows you to establish a surety bond rather than insurance. If you've got $30k-$50k lying around doing nothing, you can let the state hold on to. So long as you don't get sued for damages related to your driving, you get it back when you stop driving.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    I mean outside of the fact by law you have to have car insurance.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    Depends. You can also deposit so much to the DMV instead for them to hold in place of insurance. In California it's $75k.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    Ah yes, $75,000, a totally reasonable amount for the average joe to just give away.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    75k is a pittance compared to the damage you could do to another person's property or life while driving. That's the whole point of the legally mandated liability insurance--for most people getting in an accident that results in injury to the other party would be financially devastating. And even worse would be having someone hit you and put you through 250k of medical care with no ability to pay.

    Thousands of people are injured every day in car accidents in the US and about 100 are killed, so its not some kind of unicorn situation.

    If you want to argue about driving being a necessity to live and work, that's a completely separate discussion from why liability insurance is necessary.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago

    It's not a completely separate discussion though. If driving is necessary to live and work, and you legally have to have insurance to drive, then I believe that to be a completely reasonable connection. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a system in place to ensure people's lives don't get destroyed without proper compensation, I'm simply saying our current system is broken, and to try to justify it with saying you can spend what amounts to more than what the average person annually makes in the US is ridiculous.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Well that's the thing. It's about ensuring that there's a legally predefined amount of money available to pay for damages you cause while driving. It's not going to be cheap. The dmv holding it as cash is merely the alternative to insurance pooling everyone together, charging them according to risk and the cost of doing business, then paying it out whenever necessary.

    The only real alternative would be forcing you to actively maintain that amount in free credit, which would probably be difficult and have a fee associated with the risk of inability to pay, especially as you're not guaranteed to survive a crash you're at fault in.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    That’s why people get liability insurance instead,

    The average new car is 50k, many cars are a lot more and medical expenses can be crazy. If you accidentally total a 100k sedan and the driver ends up with a broken bone you could be forced essentially into a life of indentured servitude with 50% of your wages garnished for life

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  • [+] 3 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] -3 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    What a shit take, "oh you can't afford 75000 dollars, so that means you should instead also spend thousands of dollars every year for the rest of your life, and hey you are legally required to do so!"

    I'd have fewer complains if driving weren't a necessity to survive in this country, public transportation is few and far between if it even exists locally, and good luck getting any decent job without a car, or I guess you get minimum wage at the local gas station barely even being able to pay for rent. Oh, want to move? Guess what you'd need for that!

    It's a rigged system, and I despise seeing someone try to justify any part of it because "oh you could just pay $75000" ??? Fucking ridiculous.

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  • [+] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    My suggestion is a government based insurance system that everyone puts a proportional amount into based on their wages, almost like taxes one might say, that goes towards a publicly available fund for people that have traumatic accidents/injuries.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    The insurance you're required by law to carry is liability imsurance that ensures you don't ruin someone's entire life with no ability to compensate them. If you own your car free and clear, its completely on you whether you want to insure your own property.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    The difference is that (in theory at least), insurance will pay your full costs, regardless of how much you’ve already paid in. You can sign an auto insurance on one day, pay in 100$, then get into a 20k$ crash the next, and get the entire costs covered.

    I've had basically this. In the decade or so I've been paying for my own insurance, I've had about 75k paid out in claims (hail storm totaled 2 cars and did heavy damage to the house, plus a third car totalled by a deer on a blind corner on a county highway)

    Climate change is absolutely turning the entire insurance industry on its head given places like the southeast with frequent hurricanes and the southwest with frequent wildfires. And for everyone else the increasingly severe storms are raising the chances of a random incidence of chaos leading to a claim

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I self insure. I keep my state minimum and pay what I would pay in collision to myself in an interest bearing acct until I reach the replacement cost of the vehicle. Took a while the first time but after those first few years it has been worth it.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Only a few years? What's the math on that? I looked into it and the minimum was 20k. When I looked at it I think it would take around 40 years to break even on premiums. It's not about the replacement cost of the vehicle but about damages that you could be liable for. If you're liable for a hospital bill, that minimum won't go far.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    The state minimum insurance for me is liability which covers all damage to other people's vehicles and injuries. What I insure myself for is damage to my vehicle. It costs $220 for full coverage and $20 for liability. I pay myself the $200 until it reaches the depreciated value of the car. After the first car I had enough money to buy in cash and just keep the fund going. I still pay the $20 a month to GEICO because it's required but I now can replace my vehicle in case of a wreck. After 5 years that $200 is $12k. All the gamble was on the first car after that not a problem as long as I don't try to buy a new or luxury vehicle.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    My bicycle theft insurance also pays for regular checks, and routine repairs.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    I wonder if it's because bicycle insurance isn't required and therefore needs to actually offer something in order to attract customers. It's probably unwise that we leave to capitalism the kinds of insurance which are so important they need to be legally mandated.

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