I think we have the language and you just proved it, but often people are just not reading or thinking enough about other perspectives before talking, and so do talk past each other like this.

I like your comparison to an unskippable cutscene; these are, I think, universally reviled at the start of boss fights. For some reason I don't think long runbacks are reviled in nearly the same way, yet repeatedly running through the same area with no challenges (jumping off the staircase for the shortcut to Ornstein & Smough in DS1 does not count ffs!) is not really any less boring.

The ideal runback to me has a few enemies that you can soon work out how to run around. You actually get a feeling of having accomplished something, but don't have to get perfect at defeating those enemies, nor waste time doing so (running will always be faster than fighting, pretty much).

I think "git gud" is just a knee-jerk meme though - there is no reason to believe that someone saying it has engaged in the slightest with what has been said to that point; they're just trolling.

they are related and compound each other. it’s harder to “git gud” if you have to do a bunch of runbacks too.

Add an easy mode just half the boss health and damage. Easy fixed

I, uh, have kinda given up on progressing for the foreseeable future. I'm bad at platforming, and after struggling for probably around half an hour to get through one aection that was particularly difficult for me, I was met with a surprise boss fight. Nearest bench before that section. It's brutal. It takes me about 5ish minutes to do that section now, but fuck I wish I were exaggerating. None of the other fights have anywhere near as nasty a runback and it honestly feels like they forgot a bench.

The game is hard and that's fine, but that instance I feel ok bitching about and don't feel like I'm a qhiny pathetic fuck for doing so, which is incredibly telling given how easy it is to make me feel like a whiny pathetic fuck.

Skills and traps don't do enough damage to feel especially useful either.

There's one trap that actually is pretty strong if you know how to abuse it.

I'm not going to spoil where or how to get it, but flying beetles that home in on the enemy and repeatedly bump into it to deal damage can be pretty busted... especially when they still attack during phase change animations that stop the player from moving.

"Fragile and reactive" IMO is a fair take, but I think what the game is pushing you to do is become comfortable enough with your mobility to be aggressive while still avoiding hits. I don't know exactly where you are in progression, but you continue to tack on new capabilities to your kit that make it easier and easier to avoid things while still laying out damage.

I am sure there is enough room in the game design for people to take totally different approaches here, though. If you know a given enemy's movement well, you can absolutely be confident in using your silk for attacks instead of healing.

I also hate, and this is another compounding factor, the complete lack of enemy HP bars.

IIRC, HK1 had a badge that turns these on. I'm not far enough into the new game to have found this yet, though.

I definitely agree that the constant double damage just feels horrible. Hollow Knight was always about balancing heals versus punishes (one reason I loved Dark Souls 2 so much) but you basically need to heal if you get tapped once and... yeah.

I think a bigger issue is that upgrades feel so much rarer. Part of it is that you have MUCH fewer equipped charms at any given time... so there is much less point in just giving you a new one every 10 or so minutes. And I am not sure if max health is lower but it similarly feels like I find a mask shared maybe every 2 hours or so which further lends itself to feeling weak. And no idea what the deal is with silk but a single pip when it takes like five pips to even do a heavy attack feels pointless?

And while some vendors do sell upgrades, it always feels like a struggle to afford them unless you are actively grinding because of the constant need to buy maps and so forth (something I hated in 1 as well, but that at least had a single currency). Although I did get a nice stretch where I just mopped up and bought out most shops so that is at least nice.

And same with the attacks. Apparently I may have actually ran past Threadstorm while exploring and never even noticed it? And that is the power everyone says to use.

Feels like healing in micro transactions form where you want to buy a thing that cost 3 currency but the shop only sells at five currency.

I agree with a lot of your commentary. A couple times so far a “good run back” has been the grind that let me buy some of the higher-cost items from shops. Sometimes it’s frustrating but usually once you get used to the path it goes quickly. There have been a few times where I didn’t realize there was a closer bench until after I already beat the fight lol.

Double damage would suck a lot less (and be a better mechanic) if you had 6 HP to start, or if you healed 4 at a time, or if bosses didn’t always do 2 damage.

Most of the bosses have 1-damage and 2-damage attacks. Also 6HP and increased healing are available relatively early (still a good way into the game but it’s a long game).

Skills and traps don't do enough damage to feel especially useful either.

I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially when you start getting more traps/tools and upgrades for them, they get very strong and don’t require you to get dangerously close to the enemy like the basic attacks. Some of the bosses and many of the arenas I’ve gotten through mainly thanks to the consumable traps.

Common enemies are spongy, bosses take at least 33% too long across the board.

Like in most metroidvanias, you start off struggling against common enemies but as you get upgrades they become weaker relative to you. However I do agree that the trash mobs are a bit too tanky. Maybe somewhere between 50% and 25% less health would be ideal. I’m not sure I would adjust the bosses though.

like benches that are locked behind a paywall, which you have to pay every time you want to access the bench

I found this in one small area, which was probably done for the flavor, since it makes thematic sense there, but otherwise it's always been permanent unlocks.

No way ? I haven't seen this so far. Paywalled benches ??

I have been running around the citadel, and with more fast travel options there I've gotten in the habit of constantly going back to belhart and making rosary necklaces. Sekiro had a similar mechanic with gold pouches. Also in this stage of game I'm finding a lot of silkeaters, so if I take a wrong turn at alburquerque and don't want to get locked into a fight or weird platforming area I can just recover my beads. It gets better kids. Keep playing.

I recently started gaming again after a twenty year gap. Back in the day I used to go for high difficulty and complete everything. Now, I'm playing on easy difficulty setting. Partly cos I'm in my 50s, reactions are slower and my hands are a bit fucked up. Partly because I want to enjoy the story and the experience - if I get stuck on a fight and keep dying I get frustrated eventually and angry with myself for not being as good as I want to be. That feeling is not what I'm gaming for, so yeah, easy setting.

I haven't played hollow knight because I'm told it's frustrating and difficult, and, while the aesthetic really appeals to me I don't wanna be frustrated. But I'm so happy for all the people who have been waiting for this and are enjoying it, sometimes we do get nice things!

The problem with “old difficulty” was that in arcades especially, and even on consoles by way of the industry being smaller and the same people working on both, were designed around quarter-munching.

Stuff was hard to get people to pay up.

I would have preferred modern ideas like bosses are hard because you have to learn their patterns- and to be clear, this is also present - but also the feeling that I’m not strong enough to do anything more than chip damage is a bit annoying.

I think there’s validity in all the arguments I’ve seen people making; but at the same time I’m glad the game’s not easy. I just don’t know if it always needs to be punishing through frustration.

(The thing that pisses me off the most are those

So that’s why I say there’s a difference between “tricky” hard and “annoying” hard.

For me, much of the fun is making progress. i never finished the first game because I kept getting lost and stuck and unable to progress for extended periods. In a From Software game I can spend weeks on a single boss and masochistically enjoy every moment because I know what I have to do. The problem I had with Hollow Knight was I kept finding myself completely at a loss about where to go or what to do. I would spend days retreading the same empty caverns looking for a clue or a new path and not finding any. When I knew what I had to do, I enjoyed it immensely, but progression was often too obscure and my interest slowly evaporated.

Yes.

I think time has made people look at Hollow Knight through rose tinted glasses. When I picked up the game in 2018, I got to the Soulmaster and gave up entirely because of its runback, it was just too annoying.

I ended up finishing the game a few years later and absolutely loving it, but runbacks are to this day my main criticism of the game, and I know a lot of people agree about that.

For this reason I hoped that they’d make things better in Silksong, but at least now I know what to expect so it doesn’t annoy me as much as it used to.

HK can be trivialized pretty early on by stacking charms and upgrades. Silksong spaces out meaningful upgrades in a way that really forces you to learn the ins and outs of the game before you can start buildcrafting.

FWIW, all the final bosses are easier than HK's true final boss. The difficulty scaling starts with a rough curve but evens out over time.

I was all-in on Hollow Knight. Beat it multiple times, including Path of Pain and the Nightmare King. But I'm struggling with Silksong.

I went back and started up Hollow Knight again just to sanity-check myself, and, yes, it's definitely an easier game. Many fewer enemies can hit for 2 health; there's more variety in paths in the early game, so if you hit a wall in one direction you can try another; and you get access to upgrades that actually feel impactful relatively early instead of skills that use up my magic pool that I can't spare because I need them because I'm always one hit away from dying.

My pet theory is that Silksong is actually just exactly what they originally pitched: DLC for players that have mastered the highest skill points in Hollow Knight. And maybe that would be fine if I were coming straight into it off of the back of Godhome. But it's been years since I was playing those areas, and my skills have atrophied. It's okay for a DLC to expect mastery from the start, but a standalone game should have more of a curve.

I imagine a non-insignificant portion of Silksong players never played HK and just jumped on the hype bandwagon. Which makes sense considering it was built up like it would literally pay off your mortgage and reunite you with your high school sweetheart.

Steve Bannon recognized exactly this (with gamergate) and harnessed it for his fascist ends.

Some of the boss fights felt amazing once you start learning their attack patterns, but then others were just... lacking. The savage fly one comes to mind. It wasn't particularly a difficult boss itself. But when it summoned ads, it became a fight around rng. It wasn't a fun fight at all. Felt like the devs realised it was too easy and chucked in ads then left it there.

Separately, why on earth the boss doesn't receive damage for slamming down on the spiky enemy when its spikes are deployed... Missed opportunity!

"death of the author" suggests some of the author's intent is lost when a work is consumed by the audience.

I can accept stupid decisions. I don't have to respect them.

This is exactly it. I think the game is a goddamn masterpiece. The most infuriating fights feel like huge accomplishments, not just relief. Phenomenal game all around, but that difficulty curve isn't for everyone. I can say the same about any Soulsborne game, love them to death but it's definitely too much for some folks. Difficulty options are a good thing, if a compromise has to be made just have it disable achievements or w/e.

Mandragora had the exact same difficulty system, you could adjust enemy HP, Damage and even Stamina cost at every bonfire. Great accessibility feature.

I have no idea what people were expecting to be honest. Hollow Knight was already known for being an extremely difficult game with punishing anti-fun elements like runbacks and corpse runs. Which game had everyone played that got them so hyped for Silksong?

There's a reason I stayed away from HK, and I will be staying away from Silksong too. Game looks great but I won't be able to beat it and I won't have any fun failing to do so.

If anything I find the walkbacks much shorter than in the original. There is always a bench 30s/1m away from each boss or tough platforming section. At least so far...

Yeah the game's definitely harder than HK was, but by no means impossible. It's not nearly as difficult as say Elden Ring for a recent-ish example. The true ending final boss didn't even take me as many tries as Last Judge or that frog fucker lmao

None of the runbacks are egregious either. There's just about always a bench barely 30-40 seconds away at absolute most.