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[–] 59 points 1 year ago (1 child)

I hear ya, squirt. I hear ya.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 147 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    This is a great example in support of something I often think about. We see our consciousness as "me" and as "the thing in charge" of the body, but really it's more of an ancillary subprocess that the body runs for its own benefit. It's just a special subprocess that does its job best when it mistakenly thinks of itself as being the boss of the body.

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  • [–] 55 points 1 year ago (20 children)
  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Like why Reubens are so good. I don’t like salty protein, bread with caraway seeds, thousand island dressing or Swiss cheese, but fuck is a Reuben delicious.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Reubens are the only beef food I used eat in my 20s. I've since switched to seitan, but there's something about the combo that just works. The rye bread is a key part of it.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Can you explain what this means?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Conscious (sentience / sapience) is an ineffable, unmeasurable, quality. There is no way to say that one sentient being is more or less sentient than another. In fact there is no way to tell that I am not the only consciousness in existence but it feels rude not to give others the benefit of the doubt. We can create neurons and even small brains in the lab but we don’t have any way to instill life into that neuron. Consciousness simply emerges out of the constituent parts of being alive, possibly even as a result of the interactions of such a complex system.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There's no biological structure the creates consciousness to the ppint where you can say "if you have x, you're conscious", to the point where saying "humans are conscious" or even "only humans are conscious" aren't always true. Many elephants are conscious. Some dogs are consciohs. Some humans aren't. And no, the split between humans are/aren't conscious ARE NOT CORRELATED WITH DEMOGRAPHIC (fuck Nazis and racists), nor is it easy to draw a line in the sand because it's a spectrum.

    It comes from having a brain that's complex enough. Decision making process start interacting together in unexpenced ways, with subtle variations caused by genetics and history. Literally just read the wikipedia page the previous person posted and apply that same logic to brains and minds.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

    It would be strongly emergent then. And strong emergence is basically magic.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I don't see how either sentence follows. Rephrasing your comment and supplementing it with context to explain your reasoning may better communicate your point.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Weak emergence has qualities that arise from the fundamental features of the parts and the rules that connect them. For example, the shapes made by flocks of birds can be reduced to simple local interactions among the birds.

    Strong emergence has qualities that cannot, even in principle, be reduced to the parts and their rules. These qualities are genuinely novel and bring powers that are not found in the constituents alone.

    Strong emergence is like mixing two chemicals in a lab and, instead of producing a new compound, discovering an entirely new fundamental force of nature. Consciousness, in particular, seems to lack any physically grounded ontology. While this is a divisive claim, it is hardly original. Physicalists who appeal to weak emergence have not yet shown—nor may they ever be able to show—that consciousness is physically emergent. If strong emergence is to be taken seriously, it must be framed in a way that avoids looking like something from nothing, which would be indistinguishable from magic.

    As of now, the physicalists have to demonstrate weak emergence. Failing that, we cannot dismiss strong emergence so that we don't close the investigative and theory making space.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    That makes more sense. Thanks for the response! I'm not sure if can agree with your conclusions. It may be that I'm still missing context you're working within. My best guess is you're assuming some axioms that I am not. That doesn't necessarily mean I think you're incorrect. We might just be operating with different frameworks.

    I agree that strong emergence and weak emergence seem different by your definitions. I'm not convinced strong emergence is a thing. Is there a compelling argument that the perception of strong emergence is actually a more complex weak emergence that the observers have not fully understood?

    Something something Occam's Razor / god of the gaps something. I find these sorts of discussions quite compelling. Thanks again for engaging. :)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I can see what points you're making, but it's unclear what you're arguing for. It would be helpful if you made that explicit, too.

    My best guess is that you don't think that consciousness is emergent. What then, do you consider the nature of consciousness to be? Are you perhaps agnostic on the matter?

    I agree that strong emergence sounds like magic and I'm therefore highly sceptical of its existence. I find consciousness one of the most intriguing and mysterious phenomena we know of - I don't really think I understand it to a degree where I can make confident claims about its nature. But dualism sounds like magic too, so weak emergence seems to me the most reasonable and likely mechanism, not least because it's one we actually observe in reality.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I lean toward agnosticism here, because I see real merits and pitfalls on both sides. If I were clever enough, I’d try to devise an experiment that cut between them—but part of me suspects that no such experiment is possible, precisely because the conceptual frame might already bias the outcome.

    I’m wary of dismissing strong emergence simply because it ‘sounds like magic.’ That response risks becoming circular: we assume everything unexplained must eventually be physically explainable, since everything explained so far has been physical. But that’s not really evidence—it’s induction edging into dogma.

    This is where I find Wittgenstein helpful. ‘Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.’ But silence, to me, doesn’t mean disengagement. It means recognizing that consciousness may resist the clean resolutions science is used to delivering. To turn away from that means not being rigorous. To turn away from that mystery just because it unsettles our frameworks seems to me to miss something vital about living—and thinking—at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I don't really disagree with anything you laid out here.
    I'll just add that I think we don't yet have the conceptual frameworks to fully describe (and by extension - understand) the problem in the first place.

    Yes, strong emergence seems like magic, as does dualism. But if there is no magic, consciousness feels like the closest thing to it; so who knows?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    He's not communicating. He's bragging. Although in truth, he's actually demonstrating because there's no purpose in showing you his knowledge. That means he's showing you what he understands and sees rather than explaining. Explaining is extensive and difficult because the many are blind even though they can read so often don't see their own lack of ability to see reality.

    I can explain more deeply but I think I'm just going to go masterbate instead.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean that’s basically what a person who is a vegetable is (sorry, don’t know the correct terminology, someone probably will be offended by that phrase)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I think that is a bit of a misleading way of putting it because the feeling being a "self" that is in charge of the body is an experience that is contained within consciousness rather than the essential nature of it; in principle, one could imagine having consciousness without any feeling of being a "self" at all.

    If I had to define the nature of consciousness, I would say that it is essentially an internal simulation that the brain creates in order to aggregate information from various sources in order to facilitate processing and decision making. Just to be clear, this is not my own original idea, and more importantly I do not think that it is a particularly clever or deep way of thinking about consciousness, but rather the inevitable conclusion one reaches when one plays around with one's own attention and awareness and sees what happens; the trick is just to do it like a scientist and be constantly challenging one's own conclusions, rather than to invent one's own version of chakras. I find it especially enlightening to watch what the mind does when one tries not to steer it into doing anything; with some practice, it is possible to watch the "self" pretend to be in charge while simultaneously realizing it is not, and this experience can be helpful (though frustratingly I have not found it to be as immediately life-changing as I might have hoped).

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    This hurts, I got denied for a loan for a house a few years ago.

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  • [–] 43 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You should find a rock and then digest your brain.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Seeing your reply out of context made me think "what did I do to get hatemail this time?"

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    These are some of the closest relatives of the vertebrates, by the way.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Sea squirt looking at us doing dumb things to the planet: ..... nah, don't know those guys, not related at all

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I mean, it's not like we're the worst. Stromatolites completely fucked up the atmosphere and it's still full of poison billions of years later.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Same. It's why I hate change. You know how much it hurts to regrow your brain? It hurts a lot!

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago

    I've never seen an organic political stance before... that's amazing.

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  • [–] 69 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Finally understand republicans

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    Me, rotting in bed

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Some of my colleagues fit the description. Been there for ages producing virtually nothing, and you can't squeeze an ounce of thinkign out of them.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    Lucky bastard

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Original flavor MAGA

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I somehow misread sea for ceo and yet it didn't make it nonsensical

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Clearly parasitizing that brain coral.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    One is now sitting in the White House

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago

    Average US voter

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago