Infighting (jlai.lu)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world
 

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[โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago

Add in some conservatives from le other side to the first panel and replace the soldiers in the second panel with the 1% and id say itโ€™s accurate.

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  • [โ€“] 81 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (25 children)

    It's why ranked choice is the only sane voting approach. First past the post heavily favors right wing authoritarians.

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  • [โ€“] 9 points 1 year ago*

    Ranked-choice voting is a decent choice for uninominal elections.

    Proportional elections are a popular alternative, and they are arguably fairer than even RCV because they are not susceptible to gerrymandering or votes otherwise being weighted by geography (i.e. your vote still matters just as much as anyone's if you live in Redneckville, Mississippi). They do have other downsides though.

    Unfortunately here in Belgium we do proportional voting and the Prime Minister is nonetheless a far-right separatist in charge of a right-wing coalition so, uh, maybe FPTP is not the only thing that stands between the citizenry and a communist utopia lol

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  • [โ€“] 12 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    โ€œVoting is actually badโ€ Tankies ๐Ÿค Nazis

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)
  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    "I support genocide"

    Anti-tankies ๐Ÿค Nazis

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    " The Holo-incident is not THAT bad" Tankies ๐Ÿค Nazis

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago* (8 children)

    Comparing a famine caused by poor harvests across eastern europe and exacerbated by poor management to the fucking holocaust is wild.

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  • [โ€“] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    "poor management" is one hell of a way to put it.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I mean, even the Holocaust could also be said to boil down to poor management if we're just doing shitty arguments.

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  • [โ€“] -1 points 1 year ago

    The holocaust was the result of pretty effective management, only possible with the latest technology, courtesy of IBM.

    What lesson do libs and anarchists take away from the holodomer anyway? Don't try to redistribute grain or stop hording during a famine?

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Literally only tankies are stupid enough to believe old Soviet Propaganda about how Holodomer was not a genocide. when it clearly was.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Well you can either look at the now public soviet archives to see what the government was saying to themselves, you know primary sources, and plenty of historians who cite those or you can accept what anti-communists with no primary sources and a weird tendency to rehabilitate nazi-collaborators say.

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  • [โ€“] -4 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    This is why far "left" and "right" are itself misguided labels. It's more like far opposite on the other end where they meet.

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  • [โ€“] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Horsehoe theory is misguided itself, it was pitched purely to distance liberalism from fascism when historically they are linked, and to demonize those who support collectivization over privatization. Read Blackshirts and Reds.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    For almost all of human history, the current center of the the western Overton window would have been considered far, far left. Does that mean that monarchism and feudalism is the true center, and liberalism is actually the same as being to the far right of monarchism?

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago

    The modern left-right political spectrum only makes sense in a modern sense. Trying to apply it like it's some sort of universal law is stupid. Monarchism, for example, can't be placed on the spectrum because there are different types of monarchies that are radically different from each other and there are different monarchs within each of those systems that are radically different from each other.

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  • [โ€“] 55 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    The only thing that matters is policy, I'll work with anyone as long as it's toward an egalitarian society with wealth redistribution.

    Labels are nice for classifying, but not for executing. I don't care if you identify as leftist, or liberal, or progressive; I care if you support good policies.

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago*

    Yeah, but the question ultimately lies in how many bad and straight up harmful policies are worth the small step toward an egalitarian society? Where does it become ignoble to vote for one policy, when there are ultimately many more harmful ones outweighing the positive? Because itโ€™s kinda rare that we get to vote on policy. We vote for people, with the vague promise of policy ideas that face an uphill battle and watering downโ€” not to mention the straight up bastardization of those good policies, turning them into terrible ones.

    I wish it were so black and white as us getting to vote on policy. The policymakers surely seem to be unable.

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  • Iโ€™ll work with anyone as long as itโ€™s toward an egalitarian society with wealth redistribution.

    Okay, but here me out? What if we just privatize the mechanism of wealth redistribution? Also we're going to be spending a bunch of money on foreign wars, but don't worry - this time the people were fighting are ontologically evil, we promise. Yes, we will have to make deep cuts to social services in order to pay for the war (while still running enormous deficits because haha, psych, deficits don't matter), but it will be vital to get the Moderate Conservative on board with our program.

    Also, we control every branch of government, but we still need to compromise with fascists in the opposition.

    Okay, why are you leaving? You're clearly not serious about progressive reforms.

    And STOP SAYING NICE THINGS AND CHINA! This is a red line we will not tolerate!

    You know what? You're not serious. We're forming a coalition with Liz Cheney. See you in the losers bracket next year.

    ...

    You're the reason we lost control of the government.

    ...

    Okay, now stop voting for a popular leftist mayor, or we'll burn this whole party down.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    The issue is that you're a minority in your camp. Broadly speaking, the left sees compromise as weakness, neutrality as cowardice, working with opposition towards a common cause as treachery. These are all symptoms of purity testing, and it's the reason why the left in so many places is completely paralyzed.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    How do you know that isn't confirmation bias? We have no idea how many leftists there are that see purity testers and decide to not engage.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    It's a similar to MAGA in a way. MAGA's biggest problem, as an ideology, is that it revolves around blind loyalty to a single idiot and therefore the entire movement starts and stops with his whims, no matter how contradictory, damaging, or nonsensical. You could say it's confirmation bias that I have this opinion, but I think given recent events, this opinion does have a basis of fact to it. The same applies to the left when it comes to purity testing. It's really not hard to see how prominent purity testing is in leftist discourse.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Itโ€™s really not hard to see how prominent purity testing is in leftist discourse.

    That's not what I'm asking, I'm saying you can't judge now many people are not engaging in purity testing.

    You could say itโ€™s confirmation bias that I have this opinion, but I think given recent events, this opinion does have a basis of fact to it

    That's exactly what confirmation bias is. "All the toupees I see are bad, therefore, all toupees are bad." Confirmation bias with a basis of fact to it, still completely ignoring the toupees you don't notice.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Thatโ€™s not what Iโ€™m asking, Iโ€™m saying you canโ€™t judge now many people are not engaging in purity testing.

    That's a moot point. First of all, I'm not casting judgement, I'm simply pointing out the state of leftist unity. You can't deny that purity testing is a huge element in leftist discourse, and if you are going to anyway then you're simply not being honest. It doesn't matter how self identifying leftists do or don't purity test, the point is that enough do where it's a cornerstone of leftist culture.

    Thatโ€™s exactly what confirmation bias is. โ€œAll the toupees I see are bad, therefore, all toupees are bad.โ€ Confirmation bias with a basis of fact to it, still completely ignoring the toupees you donโ€™t notice.

    That's not what confirmation bias is. Confirmation bias is when you actively seek out information that support your preexisting beliefs. My opinion is not confirmation bias, but a simple observation.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    First of all, Iโ€™m not casting judgement

    boy you really aren't understanding what I'm saying if you think that's how I was using "judge"

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I did misread your comment, and I apologize for that but my point still stands. We're not doing a survey here, we're simply observing the current state of leftist culture and discourse in society. Looking at the the left right, can you say that purity testing is prominent element of it? It's a simple yes or no question, and I think the answer is a yes if we're being honest.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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  • [โ€“] 117 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    The antidote to infighting in my experience is organizing in ideologically diverse spaces. I've organized with liberals and all types of different leftists. It has left me with the perspective that all these people are good people that just want better for the world. It's hard to get angry at them once you know them. Per usual the solution is to touch grass.

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  • [+] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
  • [โ€“] 3 points 1 year ago

    Amazing posts! This is the correct approach. 99.9% of people want the same thing salvo's all the time, it's tiny issues that divide us and we've allowed that divide to grow and grow. People surround themselves with echo chambers and become more and more extreme hating each other and just making things worse.

    We have an enemy. We always have. The mega rich. The billionaires, the grifters, those taking advantage of other people. That's who we need to go after.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago (15 children)
  • [+] 9 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [โ€“] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I've seen this type of tactic really well displayed in this video by SquidTips.

    This man talked to a fucking Proud Boy wearing a rainbow shirt that said in large letters "GAY" on it with a button that had the hammer and sickle in trans colors, mentioned his partner was trans, and got the guy to agree with him on the fact that he should be focusing on the class war rather than the culture war.

    Even Proud Boys and people on the far, far right still think that what they're doing is good for society. You don't have to convince them to "stop being evil, switch to being good" you just have to convince them that "this is a more effective method at making society better than what you currently believe is the best."

    Will it work for everyone? Of course not. Some people are just going to be too far gone for you to reach, but there's a lot more people than you might think that could be swayed, despite what the flood of media coverage of the extremes of society can make you believe.

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  • [โ€“] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I've found that even if you do this, it doesn't really alter their behavior. A moment of consensus is never going to be enough.

    People need to treat this kind of stuff like breaking someone from a drug addiction or helping someone lose weight. Without addressing the lifestyle factors that drove them down that path, you'll never get them to actually change.

    That's why the brainwashing is so terrifying. People can fall into it pretty quickly and then it can take years and years to deprogram them.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Fair enough, though I do think this can still help with any broader approach to changing their overall mentality.

    A moment of consensus on its own might not be enough to sway someone, but if they hear someone try and contradict what they had recently agreed on, it can then make them feel more cognitive dissonance, and potentially make them at the bare minimum just stop and think for a second.

    If someone else is later trying to sway them in some way, it's going to be easier when that person says something, and they can think "I remember saying something similar" rather than "this is the opposite of what I already believe."

    Plus, there's also just the sort of "exposure therapy" factor to it, as well. A lot of people are radicalized to believe that the "opposing side" is pure, limitless evil, and that they hate you and want you dead, so just interacting with them can be enough to help slowly deradicalize them.

    For example, this Pew Research article states, regarding the likelihood of people to support trans people's existence:

    "Though Republicans who know a trans person are more likely than Republicans who donโ€™t to say gender can be different from sex assigned at birth, more than eight-in-ten in both groups (83% and 88%, respectively) say gender is determined by sex at birth. Meanwhile, there are large differences between Democrats who do and do not know a transgender person. A majority of Democrats who do know a trans person (72%) say someone can be a man or a woman even if that differs from their sex assigned at birth, while those who donโ€™t know anyone who is transgender are about evenly split (48% say gender is determined by sex assigned at birth while 51% say it can be different)."

    But of course, that isn't just limited to acceptance of people by gender. It also applies to race, social and economic status, recipients and non-recipients of welfare programs, people working in different industries, etc.

    Again, not saying it's at all some magic universal way to change someone's mind, or that on its own it's necessarily a factor that can override their overarching condition, (hell, that quote from before shows that it had a much smaller impact on republicans than democrats even given the same exposure) but the more and more this happens, the stronger and stronger an effect it has overall, and I'd say that alone makes it worth doing.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago

    True. And I'd expect you'd need fewer of these moments for younger people than older ones. Every little bump might be the one that diverts someone to a different path. I know it hasn't worked well on my older family members, but it was those kind of moments that helped my diverge from my religious upbringing when I was younger.

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  • [โ€“] 9 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    The truth about many republicans, is that they want good things for society as well. However they are some of the most gullible, ignorant, uneducated, even miseducated people you will ever care to meet.

    It is possible to reach them. But it is one of the most Herculean tasks you will ever undertake. One of the hardest parts of it is to avoid triggering their programming. Starting small with basic concepts you can both agree on. And working from there.

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    How do you find common ground when โ€œwanting good things for societyโ€ to them means โ€œenslaving all the n****** and killing all the f******โ€?

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  • [โ€“] 4 points 1 year ago

    They think that "those people" must be controlled and enslaved even for their own good. They have been programmed and indoctrinate so deeply they actually believe that those people are the problem. That it wasn't systems Etc that kept them disadvantaged and down. But somehow something in there very being

    Similar to those sneaky manipulative immigrants. Who are on the whole often far more abiding than your average American citizen. Somehow thinking they have forced employers to pay them less and take advantage of them just to hurt law abiding americans. It's not logical, it's honestly fucking insane. But a lot of it comes from a similar place. They are hurting too. Much like the rest of us. They just can't see everyone else. It's always about them. So the best way to start in on them. Is to point out how the exact same systems have victimized them. And how those they support have enabled and supported it.

    Don't get me wrong there are absolutely many you are shitty people to their core. Whom you shouldn't bother with. The plenty of them have no concept of class 4 or how much they are being manipulated by Elite bourgeoisie. They just want things to be better. But have no clue about what that would look like or how to go about it. Often times having been completely indoctrinated against it.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
  • [โ€“] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh God yes Jubilee and that surrounded bs. Though the recent one with Jordan Peterson was somewhat cathartic. Yeah they get some of the most toxic ones.

    Yep the majority of them are more like my brother-in-law or my SO. She at least realized back in February the mistake she made. Though I can understand it. As a military daughter who spent her life going from Base to Base as her father moved them around the world. Republican bullshit is sort of ingrained in her family. And she doesn't actually engage with a lot of the news personally. Instead it gets filtered to her through family.

    Brother-in-law came from a privileged bougie family. They own a number of stores in the area. All the fancy tchotchkies as a child. Summers and other regular holidays throughout the year at the lake. Started out from 3rd and thought he made a home run. With a very similar story. Hereditary republicanism. No critical thinking. For One Shining Moment talking about how Democrats and Republicans both suck. On which we could agree. Only to inevitably return back to the Republican talking points. That situation is a whole other shit sandwich unfortunately though.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago

    You're right, BUT it will never happen. Hearing different perspectives and understanding other viewpoints will not only broaden your horizons, but it will also deradicalize you... but the people who you are asking to do this are the radicals who are allergic to ideologically diversity. Purity testing is one of the hallmark defining traits of the modern left, and the further left you go the more extreme it gets. The far left will excommunicate anybody who doesn't agree with on just about everything. You simply can't have a serious movement with this type of mentality being as prominent as it is.

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    [โ€“] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    People, people, people, we can kill each other AFTER the fascist are gone, please and thank you.

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  • [โ€“] 23 points 1 year ago

    bLuE nO mAtTeR wHo unless it's an actual progressive ๐Ÿ˜ฎโ€๐Ÿ’จ

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I feel like the nazis should be congratulating themselves on sowing discord, distracting those that could resist with bullshit

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  • [โ€“] 39 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    The idea that all "leftists" should just work together is stupid.

    Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to "leftism" that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict. The people who follow them disagree with each other because they want and value completely different things. If they were to put aside their differences there would be nothing left.

    That doesn't mean arguing on the internet about ideology is meaningful, or that there can't be common goals or enemies, just that you should give up the idea that all "leftists" are somehow natural allies, because it doesn't make any sense.

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  • [โ€“] 45 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I believe you are missing the forest for the trees. First, I acknowledge your examples are separate ideologies.

    That concept also applies to the right... social conservatives, right-libertarians, and neoliberal ideologies are equally separate. However, those practitioners have no qualms about banding together to suppress dissent (or until such time they are the only voices).

    Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.

    To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).

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  • [โ€“] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It does help that the overarching theme of the right is centered around taking as much for yourself as possible and not caring about the collateral damage. The right is full of single-issue voters who might, say, not actually explicitly hate gay people but who also donโ€™t give a shit about their rights and safety if it means they can keep their guns. The left, almost definitionally, needs to consider the complexity inherent in not being able to ignore the effects that any given policy might have on others and this means that there is so much more opportunity for conflict.

    Youโ€™re correct, of course, Iโ€™m just pointing out the difference such that it might help attack the issue from a better perspective.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.

    You are assuming no ideological changes of opinion are possible or useful.

    People that vote right wing aren't better off just because they voted that way. They're not tyrants oppressing the left, they're fellow citizens who get oppressed just as much. Their vote for the winning team doesn't win them anything.

    The solution to right-wing banding isn't left wing banding, it's disbanding the right wing by showing its voters that they're being had. And that takes a cohesive and functional alternative.

    Leftist "infighting" is healthy. It's a process of discovering these alternatives, and it regularly churns out consensus issues such as consent-based queer rights, veganism, not funding genocide, and how the US government is now fascist.

    Over time these issues get normalized through leftist action until liberal centrists rewrite the histories as if they are responsible for producing them through liberal democracy.

    To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).

    Daily reminder that the DNC does not acknowledge that the US government is now fascist. Uniting under a common front doesn't mean we fight fascism together, it means we canvas for votes until we're black bagged one by one.

    Ultimately it is important to vote in every election for a candidate that has a good chance of actually getting in to represent you, but that is just one day every year or two. Everything else should be dedicated to finding and testing these alternatives.

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  • [โ€“] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to โ€œleftismโ€ that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict.

    In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition. What's more, there's ample room for compromise when members of these caucuses are able to communicate and collaborate freely.

    The biggest hurdle to Left Unity I consistently see is Liberal Wreckers stepping in to insist any one ascendant philosophy is unserious and counterproductive, right before they form a coalition with corporationists and fascists.

    you should give up the idea that all โ€œleftistsโ€ are somehow natural allies

    There's a material basis of alliance that stems from the communities that form the base of each faction.

    The idea that a Social Democrat like Lulu or Sheinbaum can't form coalition with Anarcho-Prim native people in the rural Brazilian/Southern Mexican territories is demonstrably untrue.

    The idea that a Leninist like Castro or Mandela couldn't lead a popular Socialist revolution in Cuba or South Africa is demonstrably untrue.

    The idea that Bookchin-style Eco-socialists can't find allies in Xi's China or among the Maoist factions of North India is demonstrably untrue.

    It takes work and it takes the right historical moment, but not everything has to end like the Spanish Civil War. Left Alliance isn't some impossible dream.

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  • [โ€“] -4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition.

    But if the dictatorship is a communist one they have more in common with the nazis! Or if your country is invaded by Russia you might find yourself fighting side by side with the Azov battalion.

    There are libertarians who genuinely care about free speech and might make useful allies on those issues.

    Just because someone is the enemy of your enemy, or an occasionally useful ally, doesn't mean you want to unify with them.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    the dictatorship is a communist one

    A dictatorship of the proletariat and a dictatorship of the bourgeois are actually the same thing, you idiot, you imbecile.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I was considering putting scare quotes around "communism", but refrained in order to avoid an argument about what is and isn't really communism. Yet here we are. So much for left unity! ;D

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  • Of course. Real Communism is everything except AES. As soon as leftists begin making any kind of public policy decisions, they become reactionaries because the anti-communists in the US media told me so.

    We're already seeing this in the NYC Mayoral Race and Mamdani isn't even elected yet.

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