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[–] 113 points 4 days ago

Hold upper management criminally liable

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    [–] 88 points 4 days ago (5 children)

    Don't shift the blame to bright ad boards or similar external factors. If the device can't deal with it, it does not belong in that environment.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    That's the same reasoning that forced pedestrians out of basically every roadway

    Have we considered modern urban design is terrible for pedestrians? Humans make this same mistake with regularity. We're only able to cross roads at specific places and times that are solely designed around cars

    But no, we'll keep blaming all the people who get hit for it, as well as all the robots. Couldn't possibly be bad design that neither humans nor robots can consistently safely cross

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago

    Completely separate discussion. Making accommodations to keep living humans safe is good and reasonable. (Keep in mind that in the pre-automobile era, there was no safe way to cross a busy street—you stepped out and hoped you didn't get run down by a horse.) But a robot is a tool, not a person, and changes that make traffic easier to navigate for robots may be even more unhelpful for human pedestrians than the current status quo.

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  • [–] 53 points 4 days ago (9 children)

    Oh nooo the robot was blinded by traffic lights says the company.

    WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

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  • [+] -11 points 4 days ago (7 children)

    I'm not saying the robot is "right", but the number of people crusing around with their high beams on as a matter of corse, is as they saying goes, too damn high. So I can absolutely believe that a vehicle's high beams limited its "vision" because that regularly happens to me driving and as a pedestrian.

    Now if the robot fled the scene that's a completely different issue for which it's operators are responsible.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    If those high beams are legal, then all that means is the robot can't safely operate under normal/legal conditions. If it can't operate safely, why is it allowed in public?

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  • [–] 47 points 4 days ago (10 children)

    As the spokesperson put it, the robot’s actions may legally constitute fleeing the scene of a traffic incident, meaning Starship Technologies could very well be on the hook for the incident.

    I don't understand. It darted into a moving bus regardless, even if it hadn't fled. The bus sure as hell isn't responsible................................

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  • [–] 14 points 4 days ago* (3 children)

    Yes, the real issue is that it disobeyed a Don't Walk signal, which is clearly a defect for a robot allowed on public streets. People saying it "fled the scene" are just making noise.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    "The fault lies with one of our subcontractors, one of the janitors is to blame, send him to prison. Anyway, we will keep doing business as we are a corporation and therefore a person and therefore none of us who own the company are at fault whatsoever."

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  • [–] -2 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    There was no actual collision

    The injuries were from hitting the brakes. I've certainly has to brake for people and animals in the roadway before, never considered it an incident. Guess it's different because there were injuries in the bus, which I wouldn't have expected from just braking

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    Guess it’s different because there were injuries in the bus, which I wouldn’t have expected from just braking

    I would have. When you slam on your brakes what happens? You go forward in your seat. In your car you're restricted to how far you go by the seatbelt which locks to prevent you going too far. People travelling in buses tend to not wear seatbelts so they'd have flown forward and directly in front of their faces would be the metal bars of the row of seats in front.

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  • [–] 28 points 4 days ago (1 child)
  • [–] 26 points 4 days ago (8 children)

    Whomever allowed that robot outside is to blame. If they have grievances, they can sue whomever wrote the software or built the device. Keep sending the buck up until it reaches the top.

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  • [–] [S] 24 points 4 days ago (6 children)

    The responsibility should lie with the company that decided the robot was safe enough to deploy. How it distributes liability among its developers, manufacturers and suppliers is its problem, not the public's.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 days ago (4 children)

    When it’s a criminal matter, the assigment of blame is absolutely a public matter. If you or I caused a car accident with irresponsible use of an RC car or a consumer drone, we would be facing criminal prosecution. The fact that no one is likely to face charges in this case is a huge failure of public policy.

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    💯 That's an important distinction: Civil liability determines who pays for the damage, while criminal responsibility addresses whether someone's negligence was serious enough to constitute a crime. And that question absolutely deserves public scrutiny. Automation must not become a shield against criminal accountability.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago

    Who pays for the damage is also a civil matter. Fine everyone in the chain of responsibility, up to and including board members and stockholders, scaling the fines in proportion to their wealth.

    Need to fine the parasites on top billions so that they'll feel it as much as the engineer who is fined hundreds? So be it, fuck them, they're just as responsible if not more, and should have been taxed to the point of not being able to accumulate those billions anyway.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago

    No, fuck the company, assessing responsibility should be a public matter.

    The law should be designed to make sure that no worker is more afraid of their boss than of breaking it, and to ensure that the executives, board members, and stackholders making the company's decisions (or implicitly endorsing them) are held responsible for their consequences.

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  • [–] 24 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    The robot was heard yelling "Bite my shiny metal ass!" as it ran away.

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  • [–] 43 points 4 days ago* (4 children)

    The robot tried to cross the street against a Don't Walk signal it should have obeyed. That behavior is a defect, which the manufacturer should be responsible for. Whether the robot "fled the scene" is only an issue if the robot is smart enough to recognize that it caused a problem, and left to avoid the consequences - which I srsly doubt. I mean if the robot were a live dog we wouldn't expect it to understand the situation enough to flee, we would assume it just ran off because it's a dog.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (2 children)

    Is it run remotely ny a human?

    Edit: the 'ny' said 'by' for 2 days before some mod or software agent decided to modify my post and change the spelling. WTF ?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 days ago

    These techs are seemingly developed with minimal coordination between companies let alone governments. With serious effort and planning, this could've been avoided with software providing both real time info or direct link with the city traffic system.

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  • [–] 54 points 4 days ago* (16 children)

    I hope they told their bus drivers to not brake for those robots next time. If stopping in time means putting the passengers at risk of injury, run the damn clanker over.

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  • [–] 28 points 4 days ago (13 children)

    What ass backwards timeline we're living in that we got Asimov's three laws on backwards? That a human being cannot harm a robot? 🤬

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  • [–] 19 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    If you've ever actually read any of the books you'd know that using these laws as actual laws is a dumb move. The paradoxes caused by them are a pretty central theme.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Yeah like one of the stories in i Robot, the people were going die because the robot couldn't break one of the three rules and went haywire. Think that was the issue in most of the stories.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 days ago

    Latter stories had Daneel Olivaw lawyering his way around the laws. Then there was a schism where some robots thought he misinterpreted them, went too far. Then the Zeroeth law came around adding more twists.

    It's been 20-years since I read all that. Tell me if I'm wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago

    Yeah, the actual purpose of the laws was to produce interesting (when involving Susan Calvin) or amusing (when involving Powell and Donovan) stories.

    Still some form of protection for humans is needed.

    If a robot (or any other corporate product or activity) causes injury everyone in the corporate chain of responsibility (especially board members and stockholders) should be criminally liable.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago (4 children)

    The entire damn point of the three laws is that they don't work and cause more harm then good... The paradox of the laws is the whole point!

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  • [–] 3 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    What paradox? I thought the rules were considered a good idea in the stories.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago* (1 child)

    They are considered a good idea yes. But the entire point is that the notion that they are a good idea IS the flaw. Its literally a case of "just because a smart person thinks its a good idea, doesn't make it one".

    The story and stories based on it that properly understand it. All look into how 3 simple well meaning laws which on paper sound and look good. Cause horrific unintended side effects, and harm humanity frequently to comical extremes.

    As the saying goes, “The best laid plans of mice and men can still go wrong.”.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    also robots are pratically blameless, thats why they are made, so it obfuscates the true owners.

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  • [–] [S] 136 points 4 days ago (9 children)

    If a delivery robot can’t reliably distinguish traffic lights from advertising, it’s clearly not ready for public roads. Urban environments are unpredictable by nature, not exceptional circumstances. And a software failure could affect an entire fleet, not just one robot. Autonomous delivery may have real benefits, but public safety cannot become collateral damage in the race to automate everything.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    Unfortunately we may be forced to remove all advertising from public spaces to make them safer to robots.

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  • [+] -11 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

    Wheres the proof its not reliable? I think there's about a hundred of them operating in the city since at least 2022 based on what I can see. So just based on the information here I'd have to assume each one causes an accident once every (100*365*(2026-2022)) = 146000 days which seems pretty okay to me, even if its a tenth of that.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

    "Don't worry about those other 99 time bombs! Only one has gone off so far. So if we multiply the number of days they've been ticking by the total number of bombs, it is clear that their explosions only happen once every four centuries!"

    Idiot. [admittedly uncalled for]

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  • [–] 8 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 child)

    Well, you do need to consider things in context, right?

    Captain_solanum is right about how math works. The thing to consider is the safety of these delivery bots relative to the alternatives. How often do delivery drivers get into/cause accidents? It's not never, but without the actual numbers we can't really say if these bots are more problematic.

    It's difficult to compare these two delivery methods because they're inherently quite different, but ultimately that is what we have to do if we want to figure out which is actually more of a danger.

    But accountability is really important here. If companies want to keep using tech this way, they need to be accountable for the actions of their technology. Because these devices exist in a physical world with real consequences. You cannot be allowed to get off the hook by saying "oops, just a glitch, it won't happen again".

    Also, you called him an idiot, but you may have also missed his point. We could just not outright insult each other.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

    Yeah, accountability is the entire point. Are the corporations, executives, and shareholders going to be held responsible for this?

    Also, every human driver is different. So it's up to each driver as an individual to ensure they're following traffic rules and driving safely. Human minds are also complex and capable of adapting to evolving circumstances, even at a moment's notice, to deal with unexpected situations when they arise, such as near-miss emergencies.

    Machines don't have that; they're algorithmic and deterministic, which means there will always be some possibility of events outside the scope of their programming.

    Also, comparing the robots to human drivers isn't a good comparison, because as far as we're concerned the hardware and software are nearly identical between each robot. So if one of them was capable of causing a multi-vehicle accident, that means they all are.

    So calculating probability using something similar to the manhours of each robot on the road is foolish. What they did was (incidents) ÷ (robots × time), to make it look like a comically small chance of having an accident.

    A more accurate formula would be (1 – (incidents ÷ time))^(number of robots)^

    And that gives you the probability of (time) elapsing without incident. The more robots there are, the smaller that number gets, meaning the likelihood of an accident increases with each additional robot. Not decreases.

    So for example (1 – (1 accident ÷ 4 years))^(100 robots)^ = 0.75^100^

    In other words, without a software update requiring significant technological improvements, with 100 of these robots on the road, the chances of going another 4 years without an accident is on the magnitude of 3.207 × 10^(-13)

    I'll leave you to determine what that makes the likelihood of x number of incidents per year.

    You're right that I didn't have to call them an idiot though, I apologize for that. My temper was a bit spun up from arguing with trolls in a different thread, but I shouldn't have let that seep out here.

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    [+] 13 points 4 days ago (1 child)
  • [–] 24 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)
    [–] 13 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    you know how to solve this in the most effective way?

    same way we solve for gun violence.

    arrest and charge the person who ordered the food.

    I promise after the third time, people will stop ordering food from places that use these delivery bots, eventually the companies that support them will go out of business, and nobody will ever do this again.

    is it ethical? no. is it morally dubious? absolutely. will it work? 100%

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago

    The robot was programmed to flee.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 days ago

    FREE Carolyn Marvin!

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago* (2 children)

    I would usually say fuck cars but the headline is misleading as it was a single bus and buses are good, therefore fuck this robot in particular. And maybe the bus driver if they braked intentionally and not out of panic.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 days ago

    Why did the robot cross the road?

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  • [+] 1 point 4 days ago
    [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    Fled isn't quite the right term. "Scarpered" is better.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 days ago (6 children)

    The bigger issue here is 9 people being injured from a bus having to slam on the brakes

    Seems like there is a safety review that should happen

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    Seriously, I don't care what anyone says, busses should have seat belts.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

    What are you gonna do?

    People in city buses don't usually put on the seatbelt. If you're going to start doling out fines for that, you'll have a literal revolt. Though it's been mandated for years and years.

    The driver should've just driven over the robot without stopping though. A robot is not a human being or even an animal that there's a moral imperative to save. Maybe it'll teach starship to program it to not cross a pedestrian crossing when there's a red light for pedestrians. Though I suspect there could've been damage to the bus's front bumper so perhaps that would've been a bigger danger to his job than a few injuries.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 days ago

    Goodness, I thought this said with Ninjas!

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  • [+] -9 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    All this discussion about the safety of these bots. Has anyone considered that they're only reading this story because this was an unusual event? If this was a normal thing, it wouldn't be in the media.

    See: Availability Heuristic

    Now consider how many more people would have been hurt by human drivers making tens of thousands of deliveries or more.

    None of this deflects blame from the robot company, but we do tend to screech like monkeys over stories that are outliers. We'd never have read about this if a human driver was similarly blinded, or simply fucked up, and wrecked the bus.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 days ago

    You can't just claim "Availability Heuristic" without providing any other evidence.

    Additionally, a lot of people's issue with these things is they're operating in a legal gray zone. They're using up pedestrian space for companies benefits.

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