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[–] 104 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I remember when I was a toddler, the neighbor toddler girl hit me in the face with her shoe. When I hit her back, I got in a lot of trouble and was told not to hit girls.

Would have been a lot more sensible if they said "no one should be hitting each other"

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    I'm curious how old you are. Millennial?

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  • [–] 15 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Yep! I've moved up into the 35-45 bracket on surveys and I do not appreciate the reminder of my growing age.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    The argument usually goes something like “okay a woman is beating on me I’m expected to just stand there and take it because if I retaliate at all I’m the aggressor somehow” like the whole “HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!?” Video where dude has like 20 Indian men come beat the fuck out of him for retaliating

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    That shit was so infuriating.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    He almost got killed! To make it even more bizarre, the assailants were all yelling insults about the guy's sister, like "Your sister is a whore!" Apparently, if you want to insult somebody in India, you say bad things about their sister.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    If someone is beating on you, you should take the minnimal required action to make the beating stop which normally is just leaving but sometimes can including hitting or stabbing or shooting back.

    But you never "get to" hit them just like you never "get to" be rescued from a burning car. It's not a privilege, it's a last resort you hope you never need and the day that you do need it is a sad, dark day.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Ultimately the issue is there's two things people are talking about:

    • Occasional situations when a man has to use self defense against a woman and is viewed as the perpetrator
    • Guys being way to excited to assault someone

    And people just talking past each other without being clear about which theyre talking about or disguising one as the other

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    There's a difference between what some people think of as self defense.

    The most obvious is to act in a way that prevents harm to one self - which would only involve violence as a last resort - but many guys seem to want to see it as "an eye for an eye", which is a very different thing.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 week ago (18 children)

    I've seen women hit men as a form of flirting

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  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago*

    I had a FWB years ago who would do that up until the day where I wasn't able to stop the response reflex and punched her right in the tit. Felt kinda bad since it wasn't exactly consensual, but we did worse than that regularly, so it wasn't a big deal.

    She'd still do it periodically cuz she liked getting punched in the tit, but that was at least negotiated 🤣

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    My brother's SO does this to him all the time, it feels so gross to me.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    I've had that happen as like a light tap when I said something teasing them. I think it was a test the waters of "is it okay to touch?" kind of thing. There was never any heat behind it. I'd rather they do that if they're into me than nothing.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (8 children)

    Yeah no this is more forceful then that, semi regular slapping on the chest/face, punching, etc.

    He's never mentions anything about it so its been nothing more than me and my wife noticing and talking about it together but it just feels weird seeing it.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    You should tell him that you noticed it and let him know you are a safe person if he needs help exit... if you are that ofc

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    Or maybe they just like to play rough.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    In that case there is no harm voicing your support

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Sure, I'm just saying that you shouldn't assume that it's an abuse situation.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I didnt assume that it is, just that the risk is there. Do you assume that there isnt a risk of abusive behaviour if you see someone hit a supposedly loved one?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    I hope most people can tell the difference between a punch which is playful and a punch which is intended to cause serious harm.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Yes, but there are women out there who think because you're a guy they can hit you as hard as they like. It's done playfully, but actually it still hurts and isn't a fun interaction. If you ask them to stop, they'll usually call you a pussy or a crybaby or some variant.

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  • [–] 56 points 1 week ago (37 children)

    This meme, while correct, demonstrates a misunderstanding of the argument.

    "A man is not allowed to strike a woman, not even in self defense." We live in a society where some version of this is drilled into every male child's brain from a young age.

    Nobody making this argument in good faith is gleefully responding to "equal rights for women" with "so I get to hit women", because the fuckheads who want to hit women aren't waiting for an excuse and are not mentally healthy.

    Those who are making this argument in good faith could do with much better phrasing though. I prefer "Equal rights should include equal privilege." If self defense against a female asaultant is their only concern, then it sounds like they just want to hit women. There are other issues that can and should be addressed, like a man not being able to pick up their own child or nibling from school without dirty looks or potentially having the cops called on him.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand perfectly well that in terms of privilege inequality, women have it worse. Women aren't taken seriously by their doctors, or by the law, or in most contexts really. Women get paid less to do the same work. If a woman pursues her dreams instead of getting married and having kids, that's sad. Women should not have to deal with any of this bullshit!

    What I don't know is how to wrap this up with a concise tldr without sounding like a whiny moid.

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  • [–] [S] 30 points 1 week ago (20 children)

    You have a point; there shouldn't be any excuse for assaulting somebody. The patriarchal standards hurt us all and make the world less safe.

    Also, you're not a "moid." Fuck that word

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (18 children)

    Sorry I'm old as fuck, what is a "moid"?

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  • [–] 12 points 1 week ago (8 children)

    If you smush "female android" together you get "femoid", and then removing the fe- you shorten it to "moid" for the male version.
    It's obviously derogatory and it's meant to mean something akin to "someone with [all looks and] no brain".
    I'm actually surprised Urban Dictionary doesn't have a better definition of femoid, but they do of moid.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    So bimbo and himbo respectively?

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Bimbo/himbo are about types of people with aesthetics and cultural signifiers. Moid/femoid are just slurs against men or women that a person of the opposite gender doesn't like

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

    Yeah himbo doesn't really have the same bite. A lot of women even like a good himbo. I overall prefer a little intellectualism but I can go for a good himbo too. I've mostly heard it associated with Brendan fraisers roles in his youth (George of the jungle / the mummy) It gives golden retriever energy or one of those gym rats that's always telling the other dudes their muscles look great.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    The elephant in the room is 'why the fuck are we gendering robots'.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    My thinking is that it originated from 4chan, and over there they also use the word "robot" derogatory. And the leap from "robot" to "android" isn't that far fetched.
    Who knows, could also be inspired by Austin Powers' "fembots".

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    Fembots at least fit the joke. Austin Powers was a story of a misogynistic sex-hound from the 60s trying to make it in a (comparably) much more equitable world, and Dr. Evil, fully aware of Austin's weaknesses, used the fembots to deceive him.

    Masterful joke.

    Femoid is just fucking stupid.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (8 children)

    a moid is an asshole misogynistic male. The term stems from "femoid" which is a misogynistic term referring to women in general, usually said by moids who are also involuntarily celibate (incels).

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    I prefer to not call those people moids. The whole term is toxic and does more to reinforce gender roles than oppose it. It's not worth using at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    I take no issue with calling toxic people toxic pejoratives. I'll use whatever term I think will offend the target the most, because fuckem.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    My experience has been that language signifies specific attitudes, attracting people with those attitudes. The type of people that "moid" attracts are more likely to view men as not just cultural problematic or practically dangerous, but as people unworthy of equal respect. The thing about people who dehumanize a large social group like that is that they are usually willing to dehumanize people for other reasons, including people they simply dislike. Those sort are rarely fun to hang out with.

    The people who use that term also tend to have more regular exposure to people with other awful attitudes. People who are casually transphobic, racist, and "edgy" in a way that goes beyond jokes. In short, 4chan/Twitter regulars who would rather expose themselves to hateful brainrot than hang out in "coddling safe spaces" that aren't astroterfed by Nazis.

    Basically, toxic memes attract toxic people, and unlike pepe, there is no good buried under that term worth reclaiming. There are plenty of insults for shitty men that aren't just genderswapped misogyny.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    I thank you for this knowledge.

    I am disgusted to know it.

    I apologize on behalf of my gender.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Don't apologize for things outside your control. As a species, we are still trying to outgrow the tribalism, aggression, and desire for dominance that helped our ancestors survive. Stand firm against the sophists, they exploit those old instincts rather than encourage us to rise above them.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    to expand on this, I used the term moid in my original comment because I could see how my entire argument could be oversimplified to "not all men are assholes", which is something moids say all the time when women complain about men.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    You should always defend yourself with the minimum necessary force.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    This. But it was drilled into me by my father to never ever under any circumstance to hit a woman. And I never have, even when she sexually assaulted me. It would have been justifiable for me to hit her to get her off of me, but I know deep in my being that she would have called the cops and I would have gone to jail for battery, and she would not have had to answer for the assault at all. I still don't really know what I should have done in that situation, but I do know that I should have not stayed married to her.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    Women get paid less to do the same work.

    They don't. They really don't. Comparisons that suggest they do don't compare "the same work" - they typically compare the median male and female total earnings which conceals a lot behind an assumption that men and women are identical aside from total pay. Once you start adjusting for things like role, industry, work hours, geography, seniority, etc the gap shrinks to nearly nothing and in some demographic cases (young, urban, single and childless for example) even flips the other way.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    What flips it back though is then going deeper and asking why women are contained to certain job titles (usually with less pay) also, women don't get paid equally in the work place when you consider any job that ever has an option for wage rises, because typically they never get them, or if they do they get a quarter of the rise against a man asking. They typically get passed over for promotions, over men, that counts as wage loss, they're not less qualified, just passed over because woman. They did a blind test on orchestra applicants, and hid them behind a curtain so the people hiring couldn't see gender, and then all of a sudden more women were being chosen, when previously that was not the case. Look at any male dominated industry (which typically has higher pay) and ask yourself why women aren't equally populated there. All of that counts. And more! I think there's like a set of steak knives too, or something.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    They did a blind test on orchestra applicants, and hid them behind a curtain so the people hiring couldn’t see gender, and then all of a sudden more women were being chosen, when previously that was not the case.

    Having seen that and considered it an inspiration, a public service department in Australia tried the same thing and then hit pause on it because it turned out that not being able to consider the gender of applicants led to fewer women being chosen which was the opposite of their goal: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago*

    Complete bullshit. Women-dominated careers like teaching and social work are heavily undervalued while male-dominated ones are far better compensated, and women are still discriminated against in hiring.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    There's multiple effects. Its mostly just life "choices"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    having the capacity to get pregnant needs to be controlled for in those studies.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    The CONSAD report (one of the more thorough ones done as far as considering and adjusting for various other influences that aren't simply sex discrimination but also aren't equal between the sexes) actually considered career interruption from having children to have one of the biggest impacts. Not working for weeks to months has long term effects regardless of cause, and one of the most common reasons for that happening for women is having a kid.

    Women also tend to work less hours/week in general which was another huge impact (both because that's time being paid for, some of which is overtime, and also because it can influence future progression) - the standard of describing the "wage gap" in terms of total earnings rather than hourly earnings explicitly hides the effect of hours worked and I can't imagine that's by chance since it's a major factor.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    i think my grandma put it quite simple: "never be the one to start punching people. but if you do get punched, make sure you hit them twice as hard".

    she never cared about gender and never really even mentioned it. and that in a time, where gender roles where much stricter. she was the one that beat up a group of bullies, because she thought it was unfair how they treated others. played football with the boys, even though boys didnt want to kick balls with girls. but she just didn't take 'no' for an answer. to show them, she just got better than most of them.

    even though ske knew there is a difference between boys and girls, she never mentioned it. IMO this, combined with her being an absolute badass, takes all the wind out of these petty arguments. "i cant hit a girl", "you better don't, last time she beat you up". or "i don't want to play with a girl", "understandable! she is simply better than you" etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    No one says you can't hit a woman in self defense, besides very stupid people deliberately trying to portray themselves as victims.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago*

    Maybe not where you live but many cultures do teach that. Not fighting back when a man attacks you is a sign of cowardice and weakness. Fighting back when woman attacks you is a sing of cowardice and weakness. If you never heard that you live under a rock.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Legally in most parts it's considered battery, which is worse.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago*

    In the state of IL, to even threaten is considered assault. Meaning, you can't say, "I'm about to hit you." In many other states, assault is any impediment of one's volition. Any use of force is battery, which is why the two are often paired together, and you can get charged with assault and battery.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (21 children)

    The only other karateka that's ever knocked me out cold was a woman.

    Roundhouse kick, right to the temple.

    It was like the windows starfield screen saver, but r g b instead of white... then I was on ground, somehow.


    Now that of course was consensual combat, kumite, sparring, in a controlled setting.

    But if we really wanna get into this topic... tons of women physically assault men, as in, cross over the line from assault to battery. Tons of women domestically abuse their partners.

    While 1 in 2 women (50%) report being the victims of intimate partner violence, 2 in 5 men (40%) do as well.

    https://www.breakthecycle.org/domestic-violence-statistics/

    Something like 85% - 90% of couples in the US are a male-female pair, so yeah, tons of men are physically assaulted by their female partners. Female on female IPV happens, male on male IPV happens, and I'm sure that nonbinary on nonbinary IPV happens, etc. Americans are basically just fucking violent.

    I am all for the sexless and genderless standard of it never being ok to initiate physical violence, (outside of something like a clearly mutually consented to sparring bout), and that you should always do your best to de-escalate or simply flee a violent situation, that active self defense should always be a last resort.

    Hopefully we can all agree that just as being generally physically stronger is not a valid justification to initiate violence, neither is being generally physically weaker.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (15 children)

    Hopefully we can all agree that just as being generally physically stronger is not a valid justification to initiate violence, neither is being generally physically weaker.

    Yes, and water is wet.

    The source of this silly argument is not men arguing that it's ok to assault women or initiate violence in any way. The original argument was about hitting back when being assaulted by a woman. It was a common believe* that you could never hit a woman, not even when you're being assaulted. Then the "equal rights' folks started saying "equal rights? so I can defend myself when woman attacks me same way as when a man does?". I have no idea where the "you can just assault people" argument came from. I assumed it's just a joke. I can't believe people are seriously arguing against it.

    *at least where I was growing up

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    I have no idea where the “you can just assault people” argument came from. I assumed it’s just a joke. I can’t believe people are seriously arguing against it.

    They're arguing against it because it's a straw man, and they don't want to say "Yes, you can defend yourself against a woman who is attacking you".

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  • [–] -3 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    I agree it's a straw man but it's so silly I think they are just trolling.

    Also, I still think you can't defend yourself against a women. Just walk away.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    You should always just walk away, if you can. That's good advice regardless of the gender of the person who hit you.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago*

    Any martial artist that isn't full of shit and high on their own supply will tell you that self defense skills are only to ever be employed when you truly do not have any other option.

    You always try to talk down a situation, look for or cause an opening to flee from a situation, or even just outright surrender/comply if that is likely to result in the actual immediate threat to yourself or others ending.

    Even being robbed at gun or knife point, just give them your wallet.

    You have a better chance of being able to replace your cards or id or phone than you do of surviving a close range gunshot or serious knife wound.

    You only ever use force when 1) you genuienly have no other option and 2) the risks of using force outweigh the risks of not doing so.

    Even then, you still must remain proportional.

    I am offended by people who assault their partners on many levels, and one of those levels is the obvious lack of self control.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    That's good advice regardless of the gender of the person who hit you

    If your goal is to encourage that person to go around attacking more people and make sure everyone knows you're a safe target for bullying and exploitation them this is great advice.

    When someone has shown a willingness to initiate violence, the only sane reaction is to give them a surfeit of it so they won't do it again.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Maybe if you're in a prison situation or something like that. I've never had to deal with somebody getting violent with me since I became an adult, and that's because I live in a civilized environment. If somebody did get violent with me, the potential cost of retaliating would be greater than not retaliating. If I were put into a different environment where different rules applied, I would have to reassess that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children)

    I guess you've never been physically assaulted by a woman, or met a woman who just does entirely seriously believe its ok for them to hit a man.

    I have.

    I just guarded, blocked, and escaped the situation, called and reported an assault.

    My idea, my thinking was that it is so obvious that men are capable of and do enact violence against women that ... we could take that for granted, and try to add something to the conversation that doesn't get talked about as often, despite that it does happen nearly as often.

    Being a violent bully isn't sex exclusive.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago*

    So what? Why do you think that the convo needs to shift to feeling sorry for men now?

    We get it. You're a big strong karateka. But if you'd been a woman fighting a man there's a high chance you wouldn't be writing this comment, because you'd be fucking dead.

    But hey we men need to double down on the self-pity and try to both-sides every single discussion about gendered violence, instead of admitting that our gender has a huge violence issue and we need to do something about itm

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    Same, a few women have escalated to hitting me in an argument.

    I might have been being a dick. I might not have.

    I didn't hit them back, but when I was in a relationship with them, I told them that if they ever hit me again, that would be the end of the relationship.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    Yeah that kind of thing is like one of the very few situations where a relationship ultimatum is probably justified.

    Personally I'm too old and jaded to give people that kind of chance, I'd just end it there, leave, but... some people can change.

    Its not impossible, its just rare, at least in my experience.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    I guess you’ve never been physically assaulted by a woman

    No, I haven't but I have no idea what point you're trying to make. What you're saying has no relation to what I said. I said that no one is seriously trying to justify assaulting people for no reason, not that violence is somehow sex exclusive. Maybe you replied to the wrong comment?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I literally just told you the point I was trying to make.

    The thing that you are saying no one does or thinks... you are simply wrong, many people think that and do that.

    To state it plainly: some people do think it is ok for a woman to physically assault a man.

    Maybe less of them will outright say that, that directly, outloud, but actions speak more loudly than words... and we have statistics that catalogue those actions, that I linked to, and referenced, and explained, in my top level comment, that you replied to.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago

    So you think murders and rapists will openly claim that it's ok to kill and rape people? I think you're confusing what criminals do and what people argue about online.

    some people do think it is ok for a woman to physically assault a man.

    Some people think they were kidnapped by an UFO. It still doesn't make for a valid argument about extraterrestrial life.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Not to derail your excellent points about violence almost never being the answer to conflict, ESPECIALLY in personal relationships…

    But is it wrong that I immediately thought you were referring to the Jordan Mechner classic game ‘Karateka’ from 1984?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

    Can't say I'm familiar with that, lol.

    Karateka is just the Japanese word for 'Karate Practitioner', like how a boxer boxes, a dancer dances, a painter paints.

    Looking it up...

    Oh, this is like one of the earliest fighting games!

    No, no, that makes sense lol.

    Like to think I fight in slightly higher resolution than that, but sure lol.

    ... well, at least when I am fighting and also conscious, hahahah!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    Why the fuck can't you just admit that male on female violence is far more common and far deadlier than female on male violence? Why are you trying to play this false equivalence game? You aren't helping anything with this. Violence bad, wow how insightful.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Equal rights, equal fights

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