It's a crime to not have universal basic income at this point. People aren't only unable to afford basic living expenses, but they're losing jobs to automation and AI already. What are these people supposed to do? Go beg on the streets?
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Every study of UBI has been overwhelmingly positive also every study of UBI has ended without enacting UBI. They will continue to study it until they get the answer they want.
or... maybe it's just diligent to have a very strong body of evidence before you go ahead and make a huge change to your country's economic policy based on something?
Until it is peer reviewed and points out the glaring errors, which will promptly be ignored.
Why don't you stop and smell the roses?
Jumping to such a conclusion, then blaming the hypothetical reaction, displays ignorance or malice.
I’m pretty sure they meant that “the result they want” (“UBI is bad”) would be peer reviewed and shown to be bunk, but the people who wanted that result will ignore the peer review results.
They weren’t disagreeing with the original comment, just adding to it.
If so, then my reaction was ignorant and I retract it :)
Tax the rich > fund the working class and social services > economic boom. We Know.
But! Maybe we could not tax the rich and the money would trickle down, have you thought of that?
This calls for another study!
Funny how people hoarding all the money and preventing it from getting back into the economy are choking out the economy and crippling the country.
Who knew parasites did this to their hosts?
parasites in nature try to keep their host alive and happy for as long as possible sothat they too can live. modern capitalists are an exceptionally nasty parasite that actively drains and kills its host.
TL;DR - The document discusses the results of a universal basic income (UBI) trial in Canada, which was conducted in Southern Ontario between 2017 and 2019. The trial, which was cancelled prematurely, showed that participants experienced improvements in mental health, housing stability, and social relationships, as well as reduced visits to hospitals and doctors. The UBI payments, which were designed to reduce poverty and encourage work, were found to have a positive impact on participants' physical and mental well-being, with many reporting decreased use of alcohol and tobacco. The trial also dispelled concerns that UBI would lead to unemployment, with only 17% of participants leaving their jobs and nearly half of those who stopped working returning to school or university to up-skill. The report suggests that UBI could be a useful public health strategy and that the safety net provided by the UBI project helped participants find better jobs with higher wages and improved working conditions. [AI Summary]
To be fair, if 8% exits the labour market that would have a pretty severe economic effect, no?
I imagine it would improve wages as employers would need to properly incentivise people to return to those jobs. Probably why UBI hasn't made it past a trial yet.
Yes, but that's the textbook definition of inflation (being forced to raise wages because the salary becomes less valuable). I'm not sure if that's really the goal here.
I can understand the case for UBI, but so far most trials have been quite small in scope... that means few national effects have been properly observed.
For every dollar a participant earns through employment they lose 50 cents from their basic income payment. This means the basic income proposal would only apply to individuals earning less than 34,000 CAD ($24,380) a year, or couples earning less than 48,000 CAD ($34,420).
This is not UBI.
UNIVERSAL basic income is UNIVERSAL: It doesn't matter how much you earn.
Oh, you pulled in a billion dollars last year? Here's your check for $12,000. To save us postage, we're including it in the same envelope as your $450,000,000 tax bill.
The universality of the system is the single most important component. We convey to our government(s) our political authority. They use our political authority to provide essential services, such as roads and courts and rule of law. They charge the taxpayer for those services. UBI is how they compensate us, the shareholders of our government(s) for the use of the political authority we grant them.
UBI is not a social program. It is not charity. It is the government finally paying out dividends to its citizen-shareholders.
I'd be happy to receive money every months that I payback in full on my tax deductions. If I suddenly stop working, the check just keep coming in. It becomes a safety net available to all, that doesn't mean you are actually giving it to all, all the time. You can get rid of other program that become redundant. Welfare, employment insurance, hell student loans too could be splified this way.
Welfare only kicks in once I've spent all my savings and sold my house. Money comes from taxes. Welfare takes lots of time to kick in and is sublet to a ton of conditions. UBI is there all the time. Way cheaper to administrate.
Taxes on corporations and the rich, savings on overhead from existing programs that will no longer be required.
Who is going to say it was bad receiving extra money a month?
This guy:
Choosing the right level of income is the key for UBI to work, it has to be enough to live and survive but not so much that a recipient can enjoy luxury. Most people like to contribute to society, being is social is how humans are so dominant as a species.
Most people will contribute to the economy if they can, because it supports ambition, better lifestyle but it doesn't put pressure to worry about where today's food is going to be, people take more risks, be more entrepreneurial, explore more curiosity, explore new ideas, people spend time on acquiring more useful skills.
A mentally healthy mind is not entirely lazy. Being lazy perpetually reflects a deeper problem that is psychological to some degree such as having no hope or not being able to Imagine a happy future, or feeling helpless. Mentally healthy people want to contribute to society.
Economy as a whole will expand, which will pay in turn for UBI. First few years of UBI might be heavier on tax payers of the old system, but in long term UBI will lead to better economy. Question is not who is going to pay for it, question is can people agree to pay more out of their own pocket now for a better future for everyone? OR are we doomed as a species by exploiting our own kind?
Choosing the right level of income is the key for UBI to work, i
Democracy is the idea that the political authority of the people is conveyed to the government, who utilizes that investment to provide services to taxpayers. The key to making UBI to work is not the specific level of income it provides. The key is convincing the general public that it is a return on their investment.
Once we have collectively adopted the idea that we are shareholders, and individually owed for the political authority we provide, establishing an appropriate dividend will happen through routine politics.
I would rather see socialized housing, food, and (better) medical coverage than UBI. UBI could (maybe) cause the prices of essentials like housing to increase.
Testing UBI is always an excuse to avoid UBI. UBI is as obvious as slavery abolition or basic universal healthcare. You don't need to worry about people choosing unemployment, because you just need enough HR workers to call everyone 5 times a day with awesome job offers.
City secession is probably necessary for UBI, as it can be easily implemented at city level. City politics still demanding power hierarchy as prize for politics victory makes demonic evil oppression a perpetual social feature. UBI is especially suited to cities because police, homelessness, education are in their budgets. UBI eliminates crime and homelessness. Privatizing education and daycare with stipends for children is a budget reduction, with far more likely than not higher educational achievement.
Cities typically depend on property taxes for nearly all funding. Density weighted property taxes can pay for entirety of UBI, with those living alone in large spaces subsidizing those who live in small spaces. Adding small income and sales taxes can eliminate payroll taxes. Income taxes that are equal between businesses and individuals up to say $100k, means that $100k in employment income can be tax free if it is not a deduction to businesses. Business losses can still get tax refunds. Investor income no longer getting tax breaks is justified because investor class also gets UBI. This means lower personal/business tax rates. No more need for payroll taxes. EI not needed. Either save for a rainy day, or borrow (cheaply because income to repay is assured) from future UBI. UBI replaces future retirement benefits. Sales taxes also mean lower business/personal tax rates, without caring too much who made what you are buying. But security guarantees/tributes are far cheaper than Federal fascism.
Before you worry about pig slime multimillionaires threatening to leave your city due to end of slavery, and end of zionazi warmongering fascism, know that the best places to live on the planet are those with no crime, homelessness, and great restaurants, entertainment and retail experiences made abundant because people can afford to patronize them. The Zohran in NYC should propose UBI and secession instead of hierarchy bandaids.
When Ford and Carney promise to give all of Toronto tax money to Alberta climate terrorists and Ukrainian nazis, then the power redistribution to people provided by UBI, and secession, for Toronto is necessary. Everyone is still free to donate their money to Alberta MAGA nazis, and Sarnia Ukrainians gets more influence over remaining of Canada's devotion to a war on Russia, and Canada's submission to US and Zionaziism is unimpeded, with Toronto residents free to donate to Israel or to a coalition willing to nuke Tel Aviv, if no multicultural singe state or 2 state implementation not immediate. Certainly, a part of Toronto tax revenue needs to be set aside for nuclear deterrents to those who would interfere with secession/UBI structure, as well as tribute to pacify nearby powers who would otherwise make such threats.
Social unity is a powerful benefit. It is far stronger with UBI, and liquid democracy easily achievable through crypto society infrastructure that already exists. Toronto secession/governance/UBI is forerunner example to make all of Canada follow. Social unity without sacrifices to MAGA/Zionism/Warmongering corruption is better social unity. Compromises to evil is by definition fascism, and theft of your wealth for evil. UBI is not theft. It is redistributive power, wealth and quality of life enhancement.
Who said anything about 'fuck you I got mine?'
First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.
So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.
Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.
You wouldn't get UBI "on top of all that".
You'd get it instead of all that.
First of all, UBI would be simpler as it's given to everyone, and replaces a lot of other subsidies. That makes bureaucracy simpler, which means less personnel costs, and less error-prone.
Secondly, the subsidies until now have been add-ons to an otherwise healthy labor market. That's no longer the case: the labor market is getting darker year by year, and it's only a matter of time till subsidies will not be an add-on anymore, but the main source of income.
Thirdly, giving UBI is fairer than, say, unemployment money. If you give out money to unemployed people, you favor people not working, and that's not what you want. By giving UBI to everyone, people who receive subsidies still have an incentive to work as much as they can.
Because, as the research found, it improves health, housing stability, and social relationships? There shouldn't be any need for charity, IMO. The patchwork of different social programs have tons of cracks for people to fall through if they don't meet all the specific requirements. I'm sure if offered guaranteed and safe housing, no strings attached, most of the people on the streets would take it, and their lives and society would be better for it.
It boggles my mind how some people would fight against getting money each month.
Democracy is the idea that government receives its power and authority from the general public, not a king, god, or other source. The government utilizes the political authority that we provide them to perform a wide variety of essential services to its taxpayer customers.
We invest our political authority in the government. The political authority is what allows the government to provide and charge for those services. We are investors; shareholders. We are owed a return on our investment.
UBI is the dividend owed to us for our investment.
Those various charitable programs and services you described? Most of those would be replaced by UBI.
You're looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f'n taxed to death in Canada.
This is an untrue statistic often trotted out by the Conservative Frasier Institute. Canadians think we're taxed far more than we are, because public opinion has been manipulated to believe so. Average Canadian pays about one third of income to taxes - creeping up as you move up taxes brackets
I don’t wish to interrupt a Canadian discussion, but the US is similar - ~20% state and federal taxes, property tax, medical coverage, etc. are all going to be about 30% income, if not more, depending on location. So not unreasonable at face value without going too deep into the particulars of each.
Meanwhile, in south Carolina, I pay bring home about 60% of my income, I can't afford to eat well, I get absolutely zero assistance for food, medical insurance, or God Forbid basic income, and I am genuinely contemplating attempting to live in my vehicle in an abandoned parking lot near my work to save on gas money.
UBI would also be good for the economy, as it stimulates consumerism. To economists, CEOs and politicians, you have to talk about the positive effects on the economy.
We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.
Bullshit
Id say giving 68k in taxes on an average Cdn family income of 158k is taxed to death, wouldn't you?
Fraser Institute is a conservative Canadian org. They cheat on their taxes and don't pay them because they're "a charity" and think no one else should pay taxes. Of course they fudge numbers like this and find extremes.
If you do the actual math on your personal taxes, unless you are somehow extra ordinary, you'll find overall you're being taxed in the neighbourhood of 30%.
Show your work, please. I'm pretty sure it's closer to 25-30%.
Edit: confirmed. I did the math. It's closer to 35% for most people. Including income tax, sales tax, and property tax.
Many middle class Canadian pay 25% or more just in income tax. Then you have to add sales taxes, property taxes, and the rest.
I would say he is about right.
The top income tax bracket is over 50%. If you are very high income, you can pay well over 30% just in income tax (overall).
For anybody that does not understand progressive income tax brackets, a top rate of 50% does not mean you pay 50% on all income. You pay nothing to a certain point, pay a lower percentage up to a certain level, and then it goes up on what you make beyond that level. On the 30,000th dollar you make, you might pay 25 cents tax. On the 200,000th dollar, you might pay 53 cents. On your first dollar, you pay nothing.
Oh no! Won't someone think about the highest earners! #clutchpearls
Sorry to have not gotten back to this.
I did not advocate for high earners (or for anybody actually). Your comment has nothing to do with mine.
I made no value judgements at all, did not take a political side, and I certainly did not clutch any pearls.
What I said, and tried to demonstrate, is that a statement (a mathematical calculation - not an opinion) was reasonably accurate.
I do advocate for accuracy and rationality though. Fact free politics bothers me (no matter the source or the target). So, your comment would certainly make me reach for my pearls if I had any.
Thankfully BC doesnt do sales tax on food (even at a restaurant) and property tax is super cheap here. Ours is about $1500 on a 600k place. My tax rate is about 22-26% but with deductions it would be more like 20%, and spouse earns less and other deductions so 13% owing. But even at 20% there is no way another 30% is additional tax
25% might be what comes off your pay cheque, sure. That's not actually how much income tax most people end up paying. How big of a refund did you get this year?
So, I've done the math.
Let's take someone with twice the avg canadian salary.
They're making $130k/year.
They pay about 29% tax. $38116/year.
Let's say they own property in a HCOL area. Maybe $3k/year property tax.
That leaves them with $88k left.
Assuming worst case scenario - they don't pay mortgage or rent or anything and spend every penny. So they're paying about $13332 in sales tax.
That leaves 75550 that they've spent before tax.
Which is about 42% of their income going to tax paid, in total.
Again. That's worst case scenario. In reality, they're paying a mortgage and/or contributing to an RRSP or even paying rent. All of which would substantially reduce that percentage.
The idea that Canadians (on average) are paying 50% tax is just right wing propaganda bullshit designed to scare you in to cutting social programs in hope of getting a little trickle down action. Don't fall for it.
For me, I'm paying about 35% tax, in total. Including sales tax, income tax, and property tax. And I think I'm far closer to the "normal" percentage most middle class Canadians pay.
There are many other taxes. There are luxury taxes, payroll taxes, land transfer taxes, estate taxes, import duties, tariffs, and many excise taxes just as examples. There are a lot of “registrations” and tolls that are really just taxes. And the GST and often Provincial taxes are not just charged to the end consumer but in fact multiple times along the supply-chain in practice.
If you live in BC, your property tax is likely more than you suggest. If you drink, your sales tax will be as well. If you rent, how much are you paying to cover your landlords income tax? And again, there are many other taxes. Again using BC, gasoline tax is 37 cents a litre of tax before you tack on the GST. That can be 50%. And the tax on cigarettes can be 250%. What is your total tax rate if you spend your $88k “after-tax” income on gas and cigs?
Ontario slashed their liquor tax in half. Now it is only 30%.
I am not sure that saying 50% is propaganda and then calculating it to be 42% is a total slam dunk anyway. But it is also far from the worst case scenario as you left a lot of stuff out.
And, if it was 42%, you land on June 8 which is exactly when the Fraser Institute says tax freedom day is anyway. Those lying bastards!
But I get your point.
And I am quite happy with the way Canada manages taxation (though perhaps not spending). I am not trying to scare anybody into anything.
I don't get your math. Here in BC my property tax is about $1500 on a 2 bedroom condo. Maybe 1-2% of my income. With deductions my tax is about 13% since my wife doesn't earn a huge amount but even if single it might be 20%, there is no health insurance fee as its baked into taxes. We aren't paying PST on food. So your claim is my other 15-20% tax means I'm paying 30% tax on everything else I buy?
Assuming this was supposed to reply to my response (you're just responding directly to the main post FYI).
Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes
I haven't ever heard a number this big. Where did you get this from, and how does it compare to other countries?
I don't disagree - we're taxed more than the US, but that comes with things like single-payer healthcare and higher regulatory enforcement. GST, for example, isn't something collected in the US meaning they only have the effective PST component of our sales tax, which varies widely by municipality to municipality, but is quite a bit less.
Single-payer meducal systems are objectively less expensive than the US's ludicrous system. Americans pay the highest per-capita for medical care in the developed world by a huge margin. Technically it's not taxes, but that's because it's directly feeding corporate profits. It's still effectively mandatory cost of living.

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