At this rate he's gonna somehow find a car powered off a heat pump
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I’ve heard of these! They are a really nifty innovation that’s ideal for warm climates
In some special circumstances, yes. But I also have one of these air to water heat pumps and it is entirely off during half of the year or more as the much cheaper solar-termal tubes on my roof cover all the hot water needs (and use the same water tank). I was expecting to be able to use the cold air and installed special openings in the cold air duct, but in the five years or so since I installed the heat pump I never even once had the opportunity to do so.
I'm not convinced that having solar thermal tubes on your roof is ordinary circumstances and not having them is special circumstances
Unless you own an apartment in a larger arpartment complex, you are not allowed to install such a heat pump (as a renter), and in every other scenario of home ownership you are very likely better off installing solar-thermal tubes on your roof. And in hot climates these tubes are extremely common.
They're cheap and operate for free. It is quite common in warm climates.
I've got one of these, tho its a 240v. State brand but same company basically.
Heat pump failed last year, replaced under warranty, no issues since. Keeps the room with the networking gear and NAS nice and cool!
Mine is cooler, it is a single unit that sits outside and heats my water and my house.
Bonus: when someone has a shower in summer and I am sat outside in the garden, I can position myself in front of the fan of the heat pump for a nice cool breeze.
I have a heat pump water heater that's vented to the outside and I call it my outdoor air conditioner, it's so nice to stand under the vent on a hot day and get cold AC on my neck.
Kinda curious how much of a difference to efficiency you get with it being vented. Mine has a massive fan and heat sink on it and that sits outside. Surely limits the potential airflow unless you have a 1m wide hole in the side of your house.
I have two 8 inch penetrations that are ducted directly to the water heater, an inlet and exhaust. During summer I imagine I'm getting fantastic efficiency with source air being from outside at 80+ degrees (F). In winter we do have occasional freezing temps but usually above 40ish. I don't have hard efficiency numbers but I've had it for over a year now and have definitely noticed savings on my monthly electric bill.
I should mention the water heater is in a closet, hence why it's ducted.
That's nothing to brag about. They're supposed to be hot, not cool.
It puts out cold air to warm the water, instead of generating heat. Temperature control is just moving heat around.
I'll see your water heater and add the whole house climate control. Reverse cycle ducted heat pump aircon/heater
I picture a world where everything in the house runs off a single heat pump, and heat gets diverted from your A/C into your water heater and clothes dryer.
I assume the difficulty is the refrigerant plumbing? And integrating between different systems?
I mean you'd have to basically build the whole house around it. And I'm not sure about the feasibility of moving heat around to more than 2 devices...
Central heating systems use recirculating hot water to spread meat from a central heater (which can be a heat pump) to multiple radiators. In theory there's nothing preventing you from connecting other devices to that loop of recirculating hot water to use the heat from your central heating system for those too.
It would however add quite a bit of complexity to the devices and plumbing, which would also make both more expensive.
And it also wouldn't really be worth it. Heat pumps get less efficient when the temperature difference between the hot and cold side gets larger. So while your air conditioning does indeed produce heat, dumping that heat into the outside air at ambient temperature is much more efficient (in terms of watts of heat moved per watt of electricity used) than trying to use it to heat up water to 50° or so to be used as heat source for a dryer. Then there's also the issue of balancing demand and supply of heat. Your dryer could only use excess heat from your air conditioning if both are running at the same time, so the devices need to be synchronised or you'd need heat storage, which adds additional complexity, expense and inefficiencies.
Devices that need heat also do not all need the same temperature. Your radiators, clothes dryer, dishwasher and so on all have different ideal temperatures, and because heating pump efficiency decreases as the temperature difference between the hot and cold sides increases it's more efficient to run it with the lowest temperature delta that's feasible. So it's more efficient to just give each device that needs either heating or cooling its own heat pump (unless you have sets of identical devices which all need the same temperature and that can all be integrated in a single system, such as central heating radiators or floor heating zones). And the complexity involved in distributing heat between unrelated devices in your house makes giving them all their own heat pump likely the cheaper option too.
Systems that circulate ' freon' are fairly common in commercial buildings. They are complex to build and so don't really make sense for houses.
It's possible to heat things like return water or cold water directly and then use heat exchangers.
Temperature differentials also doesn't matter much because temperature doesn't directly behave like voltage, if your hot source is too hot you simply use less hot water (lower flow). You'd likely end up with multiple heat pumps throughout a larger home, but each one can be smaller as they cooperate.
Here in Sweden we already always distribute to homes at 70-100°C and then at 50-55°C internally (again, with heat exchangers to minimize energy loss). And that works just fine. We just don't (yet) have many systems which feed back thermal energy.
You can easily feed back to a central hot water tank, then let the central heater rest as another heatpump returns energy to it.
The different temperatures are not a problem because they're difficult to achieve or anything. Most devices that need heat would have a pretty wide tolerance. The main problem is efficiency, when that heat is provided by a heat pump.
If you have underfloor heating, that can typically work with water temperatures as low as just 30°C. If you have a heat pump that needs to heat up water to 30°C, with outside temperature being at about 0°C (realistic winter temperature here, and it makes the calculation easy), then a good heat pump typically reaches a CoP of 4 (sometimes even slightly more).
If you instead would use an internal heat grid of 65°C (a pretty typical practical maximum of conventional heat pumps, and a pretty typical temperature for a heat pump powered clothes dryer to run at), then that CoP typically drops to only just about 2.
So, if you let your heat pump run at 65°C and use a heat exchanger to run your heating off of it at 30°C, you use nearly twice as much electricity for every watt of heat you add to your house compared to just running the heat pump at 30°C and using the output directly.
Typically the heating in a home is the application that demands the most amount of heat by far. But it's also the application that is usually the most tolerant to low temperatures (especially if you have underfloor heating or forced airflow radiators). So you save a huge amount of electricity by having the circulating water temperature as low as possible, but that also makes that heat not very useful for most other devices (a clothes dryer operating at only 30°C would be highly ineffective).
Heat grids work great if they are supplied by industrial waste heat. But if the heat has to come from a heat pump they're a terrible idea because of how much heat pump efficiency decreases with increasing temperature delta.
Enhanced Vapor Injection (EVI) is the engineering feature that separates capable cold-climate heat pumps from standard units. By injecting refrigerant vapor mid-compression, EVI compressors achieve two key benefits:
Higher discharge temperature: Enables delivery of 60–80°C water even at -20°C ambient, without staging.
You assumed 0°C? They solved it at winter temperatures most of Sweden sees.
Any COP above 1 eventually pays off, as long as it does so before the equipment is due for replacement you're good.
You clearly did not read the full comment chain, nor my full comment.
Your comment makes the error of assuming "not peak efficiency isn't good enough" even if a ratio just above 1 pays off if other energy sources are more expensive. Such as when you need more heat than the burned waste can provide. Or when you need to maintain the temperature of the hot water tank after filling it. You just need it to pay off before you need to replace the equipment.
Literally just see the video you responded to - some of these tanks can even maintain a thermal gradient in a single water tank and doesn't have to heat it all to max at once, and some can even provide water out at multiple temps this way. If you get that kind of machine that delta is irrelevant. And also, as the video shows, the top-up heating efficiency is actually high - when it starts at a high temperature and raises it a few more degrees.
You're also forgetting the per-machine overhead - a home having multiple heat pumps helps in large buildings, but you do not want one for every tap, etc. You want them where you have large thermal energy flows.
Do you think an installation with a CoP of >1 gives you free energy or something? It does not. An installation with a CoP of 2 still uses energy, and twice as much for the same heat demand as an installation with a CoP of 4. A CoP of 1 would be equivalent to a resistive electric heater, which is generally considered to be the worst way to heat a house. Cost wise with the energy prices in my area you need a CoP of between 2.5 and 3 to break even in energy costs, and with the grid here still being largely dependent on coal and gas in the winter you'd need a CoP of around 2 to be positive in CO2 footprint. Most heat pumps can easily reach that CoP, when used sensibly.
Tanks with thermal gradients also do not matter for CoP. What matters is the difference between the hot side and the cold side. If you have to heat something up to a higher temperature, that efficiency is lost, regardless of what happens with the heat afterwards.
The video also shows the exact opposite of what you claim. You can clearly see that the power required to run the heater goes up as the temperature increases. And yes, topping up requires relatively low amount of power compared to a cold start, but that's because it doesn't have to add much heat energy to the tank, not because of a difference in efficiency during top-up.
I'm also not saying you need a heat pump for every single tap, I'm just saying that relying on one single heat pump for all your heating and cooling needs in your house is a stupid idea. It of course makes sense to have one heater for all hot water taps in your house. But it does not make sense to run your heating and dryer on the same heat pump, unless you like wasting a lot of electricity.
You also mentioned per-device inefficiencies, but it's actually the opposite. Heat pumps are at their most efficient when properly sized for the installation. If you have only a single unit then it has to be sized for the peak demands you might need, and it will not run at peak efficiency in the summer when it just has to power your dryer. Having a dedicated heat pump inside the dryer that is properly sized for exactly the heat output the dryer needs is much more efficient. And that is even ignoring inefficiencies behind heat distribution you'd have with a centralised setup.
We already have hot and cold water distribution. Most Swedish homes have central heating using hot water radiators, and central cooling is now starting to become a thing here. Any sink in a house has hot and cold water.
It's absolutely possible to tie into this by making use of recirculation systems where you have constant flow of hot/cold water and every household source of heat or AC unit for cooling can tap into it (pun intended) to feed back generated heat or contribute to cooling. Then you use storage systems (thermal mass or thermoelectric generation) for the excess.
Well, try storing heat for later use. How do you do this as a temperature battery?
An efficient device like solar panels are still much much less effective without batteries. In the same vein, producing or moving heat right now doesn't mean some other room or device needs the excess or inverse right now.
Nobody runs a dryer constantly, for example. If there's barely any heat to pull when it is needed, how do you solve for that? Generating heat goes against the goal of recycling it with a central system.
Most houses have hot water tanks
If you watch the video, you'll understand that the temperature transfer process to a hot water tank is incredibly slow. So, water tanks are not a very good battery.
I mean, unless you want to spend 12 hours trying to dry your clothes.
Interesting problem… how do you store energy when it comes in the form of small heat differentials? That sounds like one hell of an interesting battery.
Maybe if there was also a natural source of cold, as well as a natural source of heat. The problem might then be to store the hot/cold inside a material until they can be mixed. Then mixing in such a way that allows energy extraction?
Except you wouldn’t mix them directly. You’d instead let them try to mix thermally, while forcing the heat to travel through something that allows energy extraction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_source_heat_pump
You can have both!
Also, see reverse flow heat exchangers
Geothermal systems can do that for water heaters, AC, and heat, so... They kinda already do that.
Geothermal doesn't really work great in many situations for a lot of different reasons. That's why heat pumps exist.
Which situations? This sounds like FUD.
Do you realize that geothermal makes up ~1% of all HVAC systems? So you think 99% of people are just being FUDed?
Solar panels make up ~1% of all residential power generation. I guess that means it's a horrible way to generate power, right? 🙄
No one said it was "a horrible way to generate power". I said it "doesn't work great in many situations". I don't appreciate you twisting my words. And yes, that also applies to solar, so thank you for backing up my argument.
If you live somewhere you can't install it (because you don't own the building) sure. If you do own the building (or have permission) then it works in pretty much any place you can dig deep enough
You're the one that equated "unpopularity" with "not a viable solution" with that ~1% response.
Popularity and technical viability have nothing to do with each other. It's just that the former requires a lot of marketing to push the general public forward, way more than is necessary in my opinion.
Better yet a CPU cooler for your PC or game systems.
I love my hybrid water heater. Having it only kick over to heater when it hits high demand. The fan on the exchange feels amazing during our hot summer months.
You know it's funny, yesterday I checked his channel because it's been a while since I saw one of his videos. This isn't the first time it's happened like that
It was a bit inevitable. I’m curious to hear how he reconciles taking heat from an already heated room, or if it’s a split system. Lunchtime video next week to find out!
yeah it's mainly a benefit in summer.
In winter it can be beneficial if you also have a heat pump furnace. Otherwise the heat is ultimately coming from gas or resistive heating. That's not a problem, it's just not a gain in efficiency in winter. Actually it is slightly more efficient as he explains later in the video.
The main thing I don't like about my HPWH is it's a bit noisy when it's running.
edit: I have not had the random cold water issues he said he's had in the video. I wonder if that's more of a pressure problem in the hot water line. Assuming he doesn't take 120-degree showers, if the hot water pauses for a bit, seems like he'd temporarily get only water from the cold water line.
I feel like it should be programmable. Like don't activvate if outside (of the device) temp is below 70. I also wonder if putting one of those insulation blankets made for hot water heaters in the winter would reduce it trying to use the ambient temp. ADDED: I also always kind of thought we should have these integrated with refridgerators. Like I realize how we do floorplans need to change going forward but if fridges had an insulated cabinet as part of a fridge that is made to swap since the fridge wants cold and it wants hot.
These are clutch in a Florida garage
Nice way to dehumidify a room.
On the other hand all the ones I had are never hot enough.
I didn't even have to watch the video to know he was talking about a heat pump water heater. I bought one myself when it was time for me to replace the water heater in my house. I installed it myself with the help of a friend and my power bill dropped about $30 a month.
The $1,800 purchase price of the water heater was helped by a $500 cash rebate from my local power company and a $300 tax credit.
It will have paid for itself in three years, and continue working an estimated additional five years past that.
How much colder is your basement in winter? No one talks about this, the heat has to come from the surrounding environment.
It is a few degrees colder, but I also run a home lab and the water cooler is in the room where my homelab is, so some of the waste heat gets absorbed by my water heater.
It's also in the room right next to my garage, so if I really wanted to, I could duct all of the cold air outside
That sucks. Mine gets good and hot. I wouldn't want it to be cooler. Then it would be less effective as a heater.
Nah, my water heater is the size of several small blocks of houses, includes a large solar heat collector, gathers wasteheat from power plants and local biomass and provides warmth to tens of thousands of houses via a huge network of underground pipes.
That's way cooler than this little thing.
Edit: it apparently also includes an electric heating and storage unit that runs when there's an excess of electricity.
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