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[–] 167 points 8 months ago (180 children)

I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can't be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off, but I'm not a lineman or some sort of civil engineer or whatever.

But if I were a lawmaker, I'd be on the phone with the Germans, who have 1.2M of these connected, and figuring out if and how they're doing it safely. But lawmakers seem to be somehow incapable of reaching out to people who know fuck all about anything.

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  • [–] 116 points 8 months ago (134 children)

    The microinverters stop feeding in if grid goes down. So it's safe.

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  • [–] 45 points 8 months ago (66 children)

    I know it because it's in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can't even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.

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  • [–] 37 points 8 months ago (33 children)

    It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.

    It all shouldn't be so difficult to understand.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (25 children)

    So you can't buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?

    Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.

    You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn't automatically shut off if it doesn't detect a frequency to sync against from it's AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    Oh you can buy off grid inverters (or inverters capable of "island mode"). But they are required to be able to automatically disconnect from grid, even if they are never going to be connected to a grid. You can't buy solar inverters without this for the exact reason that you can connect them to grid.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (21 children)

    They detect incoming frequency, not voltage. And yes, they absolutely detect the difference, I have one, it works exactly like this.

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (25 children)

    You are only allowed to sell inverters approved by VDE

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    You are required to notify your utilities that you'll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that's it. They can't forbid you from doing this.

    The utilities don't monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    The certification on the product shows that it's safe to use in grid-tie. What the fuck are you on about? Are you just being intentionally an obtuse pain in the ass?

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, really weird. It seems like they had some kind of agenda or point to make, but they're going about it a very strange way.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (12 children)

    Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It's called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.

    https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-interconnection-what-you-need-to-know/

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

    not true, you still need to apply to the utility to export to the grid.

    https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savings-energy-choices/customer-generation.html

    And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.

    why "presumably"?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”.

    "Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems". If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.

    Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?

    of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago* (27 children)

    The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn't detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It's turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It's quite simple and ingenious.

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    The same way they do now.

    You realize generators exist right?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    yup and if you install it wrong it's you in trouble but you still can buy them and diy without a permit. They should just be regulated so only the certified ones can be sold.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    No, because we're talking about all in one systems that plug into the outlet, why are you bringing up raw components?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    "The utility" has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we've managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the "vice president of engineering at UL Solutions."

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    but the edge case you give has nothing to do with feeding back to the grid given it was already pointed out they auto shut off which regulated by whats allowed to be sold because anyone could put a non legal thing that feeds energy into the grid even if they jury rigged it themself.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    exactly. So people could put power into the grid now and the laws would allow it with approved equipment that meet the requirements like auto shutoff whichi legally would certainly be a given. Could something else be plugged in that did not have it. sure. but that would be illegal same as doing it before its allowed. I really don't understand how you do not understand this.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Hmmm, I wonder how this would affect things in the future where this is widely used.

    I.E. if you had both widespread solar usage and some kind of large blackout, would it be hard to get all your solar back online because it's all in the "waiting for the grid" state? And the grid can't come back at capacity because all the solar it's expecting is out?

    I assume people smarter than me have this figured out, but just a random thought if anyone knows more.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Obviously. I was just pointing out that it isn’t an issue unique to solar.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I had a chat about this with a friend who works for the national grid (UK).

    Apparently the problem is keeping the grid balanced and stable. Basically, the grid struggles to react fast, so they plan ahead. Things like large scale solar can provide predictions on output. Home solar can't.

    When clouds pass over an area it can cause slumps and surges in the local grid. The more home solar, the worse it gets. The current grid is designed to work top down, with predictable changes in demand. It needs upgrading to deal with large scale bidirectional flows.

    The plug in units are (potentially) even more ropey. If used properly, they are no worse than normal home solar. Unfortunately, being cheaper, there are worries over the microinverters not shutting down. Either due to the manufacturer cheaping out, or turning on an "off grid" mode.

    There are also worries about overloading household circuits. Back feeding bypasses the household circuit breakers and RCDs. They could overload wall wiring and cause fires, or stop an RCD tripping, allowing for a person to be shocked.

    I don't know how much this would apply to the American Grid, but I would imagine it would be worse. Your grid is older and larger. You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

    You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.

    Voltage inside of residences is 120v AC, but its 240v thats delivered to each house. I think a bigger difference is that in the USA that 240v AC is single phase where I believe (Germany included) many nations in the EU are 3 phase.

    The USA does have 3 phase power for most commercial applications though.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    It’s worth noting that this is talking about plug in solar, so would be at standard mains voltage.

    Thats fair.

    At least in the UK, they tend to run 3 phase to a road, but only a single phase goes into a given house. You need to get a special hook up to get 3 phase to a domestic premise, and they don’t like doing it.

    TIL about the UK electrical system. Thanks!

    I'm at the edge of my knowledge but that sounds like it matches the USA system (for the number of phases).

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Ugh, not Germany. Try the Netherlands. In Germany it is a huge bureaucratic undertaking to put energy back into the grid. In the Netherlands (as far as I know) your meter just runs backwards and at the end of the year you just pay the difference or nothing if it's lower than the year before.

    In Germany your electricity provider pays you for what you put back into the grid. But not as much as pulling out is worth. That's why almost all solar solutions in Germany are either small or need a battery because using the energy yourself is worth more than sharing it with everyone.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    There are people in the Netherlands that have the system you describe. This is pretty rare though due to the massive push for new energy meters that's been going on for the last 10 years or so. And with good reason: lots of the old meters people had were pretty unsafe and unreliable. For most people, having automatic usage reports going to both them and the electricity provider far outweighs the downsides.

    Most of us are in a similar situation as Germany. We have smart meters that allow you to provide power back to the grid and this is currently very profitable. However, from 2027 onwards they are (mostly) getting rid of the profits this brings the consumer, in order to make the grid more stable and also for other, less clear (most likely energy company and government spending related) reasons.

    As someone who's worked in the grid provider field for a bit I'm not necessarily against this change; peak power surges due to lots of people selling of their excess solar power production is a huge problem that's making the energy transition that much more difficult. Even in local grids, we're starting to have to use massive power cables to be able to handle this. This brings with it a lot of extra costs and permit nonsense, making the life of the grid manager that much more difficult.

    I wish people would take this upcoming deadline to start electrying more things in their house. But if my parents are anything to go by, all they'll do is complain about losing their golden goose that they've profited from for over 10 years. They could get an electric car instead of their nonsense plug-in hybrid, they could electrify their heating needs, they could install a home battery and so much more. I know it costs money to do so but you basically run all of it for free most of the year. And besides that, with all the current global issues that are going on the reliance on fossil fuels should be phased out rapidly.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I think the risk is more that someone has a 15A-rated outlet on a 15A circuit breaker, plugs a solar panel into one socket and then a power strip with 30A of space heaters into the other socket. Breaker doesn't trip because the main panel is only providing 15A, but the outlet lights on fire.

    Not sure why that isn't a problem in places these are more common.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    These systems are designed to not push power back up if the grid goes down. In most areas, the municipality won't even allow a solar installation to be connected or even finished without it being inspected to verify you have that sort of setup.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Did you respond to the wrong message? Nothing I said anything to do with Utah.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    The article clearly mentions California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington and Wyoming. Perhaps others that I missed as well. Your comment I replied to was not specific to a location, you said "it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off" and I was letting you know that it shouldn't be a concern because that isn't how solar power systems work. Do you think that Utah will work different for some reason?

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago

    In the US, reaching out to other countries for advice, even if they're our allies, seems to be viewed as treason. At a minimum, seems like treason against "real" masculinity, on which American culture is fueled, especially now.

    'Why don't you just stop to ask for directions?'

    'I know where I'm going!!1!1111!1!!!!1!'

    🙄

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