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  • [–] 45 points 8 months ago (66 children)

    I know it because it's in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can't even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.

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  • [–] 37 points 8 months ago (33 children)

    It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.

    It all shouldn't be so difficult to understand.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (25 children)

    So you can't buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?

    Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.

    You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn't automatically shut off if it doesn't detect a frequency to sync against from it's AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    Oh you can buy off grid inverters (or inverters capable of "island mode"). But they are required to be able to automatically disconnect from grid, even if they are never going to be connected to a grid. You can't buy solar inverters without this for the exact reason that you can connect them to grid.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (21 children)

    They detect incoming frequency, not voltage. And yes, they absolutely detect the difference, I have one, it works exactly like this.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    So you do realize that this is exactly how HV wire detectors work right lol... You hold up a wire (or there's a wire in the wall) carrying high voltage, and the wand will pick up the EM Field.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Because waves are frequencies. I wanted to encourage you to think about what your were arguing about.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    You have a wire, it has voltage going through it, that means it has an EM field. We can measure said field in many ways. You can even measure this without needing to physically touch the wire. The absence of any electricity at all means no frequency, no em field. Put even 1mv through the wire and now it has an EM field.

    You have just measured Frequency vs No frequency. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (25 children)

    You are only allowed to sell inverters approved by VDE

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    You are required to notify your utilities that you'll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that's it. They can't forbid you from doing this.

    The utilities don't monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    The certification on the product shows that it's safe to use in grid-tie. What the fuck are you on about? Are you just being intentionally an obtuse pain in the ass?

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, really weird. It seems like they had some kind of agenda or point to make, but they're going about it a very strange way.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    What’s to stop anyone from installing a panel without a licensed reviewer taking a look?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    How can cars exist when anyone could do an illegal thing to modify them?!?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    And things that are regulated are regulated.

    That's the point.

    What is the point? I mean, truly, what is it that you're trying to convey in this thread?

    Do us all a favor and use a few sentences to explain that your point actually is here because clearly you're trying to make a point but you're going about it in a very strange way.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    What do you think "certifications" are?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Where did anyone establish that?

    Maybe you should reread the thread then because others have explained to you that they're certified.

    Are you just trying to get your comment count or something? Such a bizarre way to try to make a point. Not to mention, you're being a major asshole to people for no reason.

    I regret even engaging in the first place.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    In the United States that would be UL Certification.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US. This is enforced on US manufacturers of a product and on importers.

    Whilst people buying something from AliExpress for personal use and importing it themselves don't have to obbey such requirements, those importing them or making them for sale in the US do.

    The CE mark does the same thing in the EU.

    No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (12 children)

    Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It's called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.

    https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-interconnection-what-you-need-to-know/

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

    not true, you still need to apply to the utility to export to the grid.

    https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savings-energy-choices/customer-generation.html

    And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.

    why "presumably"?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”.

    "Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems". If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.

    Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?

    of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    A large portion of the comments in this thread are you arguing with various people. It's needlessly combative and condescending.

    You're treating conversations as if they were conflicts instead of recognizing that you and the other party are simply misunderstanding each other.

    You appear to know what you're talking about, but you are a little too reddit-pilled in your argument style.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Being rude and condescending back didn't improve the situation.

    You were correct, factually, and they were wrong. People don't like being told that they're wrong and being rude is one of the more common reactions. If you're going to try to engage with people on topics where there is a lot of ignorance and misinformation you'll encounter that a lot.

    If you're just going to hit back then you're going to be spending a lot of time pissed off and wasting your time trash talking people who don't care what you have to say. To me, that tactic generates a lot of headache and no gain. Once it gets toxic I'd rather disengage or write as if I'm addressing the other members of the community who are reading along. Lemmy is still small enough where you can recognize people and develop a reputation so taking the high ground vs toxic people can pay dividends in terms of having other people listen to your opinions.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (29 children)

    Easy check, grab a voltmeter and do it yourself.
    Pull the plug, set voltmeter to AC, and read the voltage across the prongs. If you get anything over the usual float voltage you get from just holding the probes ungrounded, then you have a problem.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago* (27 children)

    The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn't detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It's turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It's quite simple and ingenious.

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    The same way they do now.

    You realize generators exist right?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    yup and if you install it wrong it's you in trouble but you still can buy them and diy without a permit. They should just be regulated so only the certified ones can be sold.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    No, because we're talking about all in one systems that plug into the outlet, why are you bringing up raw components?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    "The utility" has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we've managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the "vice president of engineering at UL Solutions."

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    but the edge case you give has nothing to do with feeding back to the grid given it was already pointed out they auto shut off which regulated by whats allowed to be sold because anyone could put a non legal thing that feeds energy into the grid even if they jury rigged it themself.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    exactly. So people could put power into the grid now and the laws would allow it with approved equipment that meet the requirements like auto shutoff whichi legally would certainly be a given. Could something else be plugged in that did not have it. sure. but that would be illegal same as doing it before its allowed. I really don't understand how you do not understand this.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Where are you getting that no one is verifying the equipment is approved and no it does not need to be the utility provider any more than, as I said, they need to sign of on fridges and stoves.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Inverters in the US are all listed to UL1741-SB which dictates that they shall cease to energize their AC outputs if they sense an absence of grid voltage.

    Now, one thing people are ignoring is that UL1741-SB allows for islanding protection, and the disablement of it. If an inverter has its settings changed such that islanding protection is OFF, then the inverter will keep sending power to the "grid" because it thinks it's operating on a microgrid that was previously disconnected from the larger grid via a Microgrid Interconnection Device (MID).

    The settings these inverters have are user-settable, which means they need to be checked by a qualified person, either a contractor, engineer, or inspector. These settings must also often be checked by the utility you're interconnecting to before they allow you to energize, so usually all of these parties have eyes on the inverters' settings and can stop work before energization until things are corrected.

    Ultimately I agree with you. If we don't want to have to need inspections for every solar installation, especially residential ones and especially where plug-and-play solar modules are used, then inverters need to have their settings pre-configured for the grid code in the factory that then cannot be changed by the user or operator in the field. That would be a way to shoe-in this kind of installation.

    Hard setting grid codes into inverters prior to shipping to site might be overly conservative though, especially as utilities change their grid codes over time. You need to have a way to update those settings, which could be using a wireless portal hosted by the inverter OEM with credentials made only available to the OEM. Problem with this is that then you shift the burden of configuration to the manufacturer which already has a ton of other UL standards as well as rules and regulations to follow.

    What do y'all think?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    I agree with everything you said except shoe-in, because it's shoo-in.

    But you articulated (better than I was going to) the number one issue. Power companies need insurance and their insurance will be affected if ordinance permits basically unchecked generators being plugged into the grid. And before anyone says it, you are not allowed to just plug your generator into your house. Does it happen? Yeah, people have been dumb since day one.

    But there are transfer switches that allow for this operation in a safe manner, and the easiest way to deal with this is to have them installed by default in new construction, and to provide incentive for upgrading your panel to include one.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Many inverters aren't even UL listed.

    Yes but many inspectors and insurance companies won't want you to install electrical equipment on "real property" or buildings if it isn't UL as that falls into the scope of AHJs and insurance providers. If there's something that has the potential to start a fire, you need to have safety certifications so operating the system not only reduces the risk of fire, but also selling the house in the future to a new owner doesn't come with excess burden on behalf of the next insurer.

    If your solar system is off-grid AND off-building, I see no reason that you need to have a UL listed system.

    This is of course dependent on local AHJs and utilities, but UL 1741 covers both standalone (off-grid) and grid-interactive (on-grid) inverters. If you're choosing an inverter manufacturer that makes non-UL listed off-grid inverters, I would probably be suspect of their products' quality as it's easier to gain UL listing regardless of how the inverter is used: off-grid or grid-interactive.

    That's the problem.

    That is a problem. Off-grid inverters that aren't certified to UL 1741-SB aren't required to have anti-islanding protection that cuts the inverters off if there's an absence of grid voltage. If a "balcony solar" inverter were to NOT cease to energize upon loss of grid and stay islanded, then voltage is introduced to the building's/community's shared local distribution system. If work were to be done on that portion of the distribution system or grid where lineman and wireman expect conductors to be de-energized, then you might have injuries as a result. Now, you may be able to say that lineman and wireman should always test for presence of voltage prior to doing work, and as a solar engineer I would absolutely expect folks to do this, but that's not always the case. People cut corners. And in the event that certain crews cut corners, don't check for voltage and investigate where the voltage source is, and start touching wires and introducing paths to ground, people can get seriously injured or die.

    You may think that because solar panels are current-limited that this fact protects workers in the event of becoming exposed to live voltage, but any combination of voltage and current can kill.

    I've always wanted DRM for my inverter.

    In the context of safety, this is a good thing. Skirting DRM on movies or TVs won't mean you injure yourself or others or worse. Skirting inverter settings can cause inverters to operate in ways that are unintended, and could hurt people. These things are not the same, and it's concerning that you can't see the difference.

    Also, having locks on settings means that other bad actors are deterred from changing those settings maliciously, whether intentional or not.

    There is not substitute for a qualified person operating and maintaining an electrical system, regardless of voltage.

    I think it should just require a permit

    Agreed

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