JFC were losing the internet everywhere.... we're just slaves to nation-states and corporations...
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If you're a Canadian, please contact your MP about bill C-22, and do it now. They're voting on this in the next few days.
Salt Typhoon, a hacking group connected to the Chinese government, used the backdoors put in place by CALEA in the US to spend months buried deep in US telecoms providers surveilling citizens. The Liberals are proposing to put in place a worse version of those exact same backdoors. Bring this up to your MP, remind them that when the Chinese (or North Koreans, Iranians, Russians, or even Americans) inevitably exploit these backdoors to do the same thing to us, it's going to blow up in their faces.
Read the link above for more salient points about why this is bad law. Read Open Media's articles on it (https://openmedia.org/press/item/ottawa-repackages-its-surveillance-backdoor-in-bill-c-22). Bring up these points to your MP. Email them. Phone and demand to speak to them. Make a stink about this.
If nothing else, send the form letter from Open Media (the other options are better, but something is better than nothing); https://action.openmedia.org/page/188754/action/1#main-content
They already tried to pass this law once and it failed. Yes, they have a majority now, but it is a very slim majority. If a few MPs defect this bill will die.
Pretty sure my MP blocked me because their office never respond to my inquiries.
Phone their office, demand to know why you haven't heard back from them. Make them search through their emails and pull up every message you ever sent. Make them uncomfortable. Be a problem.
What is a reasonable period of time to give them to respond to an email? They could be absolutely inundated with complaints, and it would be unreasonable to expect them to move particularly fast.
Instead of theorizing, just call and ask why they haven't responded. If the answer is "Because we're snowed under", well, there you go. And now they know that you really give a shit because you're badgering them for a response. They get a lot of form letters but very few people follow up. That immediately ups the seriousness in their minds.
Be unreasonable if you have to be. I don't mean impolite. Be nice to the human being on the other end of the line. But be demanding. Your MP works for you. Make them work.
Phone their office, demand to know why you haven’t heard back from them. Make them search through their emails and pull up every message you ever sent. Make them uncomfortable. Be a problem.
The part of me that is pessimistic (that part seems to be growing these days...) thinks they would just hang up on you and if you call them back enough times they'll call the police on you to report you for harassment.
Not to discourage people, but it's just frustrating.
You're assuming a bad outcome and then acting as if it's a guaranteed outcome. This is maladaptive behavior under any circumstances.
Please actually talk to a therapist about this if you can. I guarantee this behaviour pattern is occurring in other places in your life, and it's not healthy.
Is it okay to assume a bad outcome after it has happened? What about while it's happening?
Please psychoanalyze me using only a couple sentences, that will definitely help.
The truth is, we obviously don't know for sure what will happen, but it's also not likely to be surprising if it doesn't go our way. It's the most likely outcome and pretending otherwise is disingenuous. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight, though.
I'm certainly not surprised anymore with all the shit I've seen over the years and how the enshitification seems to be unavoidable these days. People, companies, etc are not held accountable and it shows. It'd be nearly impossible to not become jaded after enough things go wrong.
So, you're saying that an MP has filed a police report against you for harassment?
Ah, that's all you took away from all I said. Very cool, I can see you're clearly conversing in good faith.
Not remotely. It's just the part that seemed most prudent to focus on.
My comments about speaking to a therapist were entirely sincere. The fact that I didn't just choose to respond further when you bristled at them is because they were sincere. I'm not here to belittle you or try to get in a fight with you. And you're right, I can't psychoanalyze a stranger over the internet, which is why I'm not trying to. Just asking you to speak to someone professional who can. As the saying goes, "I don't have to be a helicopter pilot to see one in a tree and figure out that someone fucked up." You're displaying very obvious signs that you need some kind of help, but saying any more than that would definitely be stepping out of my lane.
I boiled down the rest of your response to one point because that one point crystalises my disagreement... Or, to be more specific, I think it crystallizes where you misread my previous remarks.
Let's clarify the context here. This what I previously responded to:
"The part of me that is pessimistic (that part seems to be growing these days…) thinks they would just hang up on you and if you call them back enough times they’ll call the police on you to report you for harassment."
When I pointed out that this was unhealthy behaviour, you didn't actually engage on that point at all. Instead you built a strawman. Your reply;
"The truth is, we obviously don’t know for sure what will happen, but it’s also not likely to be surprising if it doesn’t go our way. It’s the most likely outcome and pretending otherwise is disingenuous. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight, though."
...is framed as if I had made some broad statement about the likelihood of success of the entire endeavour. I didn't. I responded specifically to your suggestion that an MP would quite literally call the cops on you just for demanding to speak to them.
So if we're going to bandy about accusations of arguing in bad faith, I could just as easily choose to point to this as an example of doing the same.
What I did instead, rather than throwing around accusations, was choose to focus the discussion back down to the most pertinent point. I chose that question because it serves three purposes simultaneously;
- If you were arguing in bad faith, it would illustrate the failings in your argument.
- If you were unintentionally misreading my point, it would clarify the difference between our arguments.
- The question itself was genuine; you might have answered "Yes", in which case I would operating from a false assumption, and you would have corrected me in that.
But you chose instead to take it as an attack. That's... Telling, to say the least.
Anyway, I'll sign off of the conversation here. It's clear from your responses thus far that either by intention, or because you cannot help yourself, anything I say is just going to continue to get twisted up into either another attack on you, or another reason to feel down.
I hope the rest of your week gets better. I do mean that sincerely.
So which part is unhealthy behaviour exactly? Calling them multiple times, or expecting that if you called them constantly they would report you for harassment?
Literally all you have done is throw around accusations, there's zero chance you are speaking to me in good faith. All you have done is insult me and misrepresent what I am saying.
If you called an MP every single day, and they keep hanging up on you, do you really think there's zero chance you would get reported for harassment?
The only person who said my week was bad is you, I actually had a great week, not that it's any of your business? You're literally just a stranger online, you're trying to psychoanalyze me, and you're failing at it.
Maybe you should be the one seeking help instead? It certainly seems like people don't agree with you and they do seem to agree with me.
I've wasted enough time talking with you, I'm blocking you now.
My MP told me to fuck off and that it was a good thing.
I live in Quebec, my MP masturbates to videos of Donald Trump and times his nut for when Trump makes fun of the handicapped journalist.
I'm not sure what you feel like you're adding with this reply.
Well done for making the effort. Thank you, and we all appreciate it.
But what do you want other people to take from this? Are you trying to discourage other people from taking action? Because you encountered resistance other people shouldn't try at all, even though they might end up speaking to someone more receptive?
Even your MP may end up changing their mind if enough people speak up. The goal is not to single-handedly sway their opinion, it's to add your voice to a growing chorus. You're joining a movement, not fighting a solo battle.
I like how you throw in 'even the Americans' with the spying groups. We definitely spy in all our allies. And in return we encourage our allies to spy on us. It is a very calculated political game where we (all the allied countries) pass legislation and safeguards in our respective home countries and declare our citizens free of authoritarian government surveillance, but then work with the other countries spy agencies to do it for us. We intentionally put in the backdoors in our peoples networks and hand the keys to our partners just so we can say 'well I wasn't spying on you. That would be illegal!' But in the end it is effectively the same. If the allied government finds anything of interest they just send a notification over. We each have boundaries that we respect in spying on each other's people too. It is almost a formallity by this point.
Why is our liberal government a fuckass conservative government?
Neoliberals want that the entity controlled by voters - the elected government/president/whatever (depending on country) - to not watch over or control the things which are important for Money (in their parlance, to "not interfere with the Free Market", which in turn justifies privatising everything).
In other words, to make the Power which is controlled by voters be below the Power Of Money.
They're against Democracy and in favor of Oligarch with "democracy" as a theatrical façade focused only on Moral subjects and not doing anything at all for other things which constrain the Freedom of most people.
Notice how the more hard-core Neoliberal the mainstream "center"-"left" parties in a country are (and the one Canada is pretty hard-core compared to most of Europe, tough even then not quite at the level of the Democrats in the US) the more their entire public political fight with the (Fascist) "center"-right is in the Moral space (Identity Politics) and the less it is in terms of freedoms which are limited by the control of Money over everything required for survival (with productive and shelter assets being owned mainly by a handful of people, so the rest are forced to toil within conditions controled the former group merely to have food and shelter).
In summary, they shrink "Democracy" down to a system that represents voters in the Moral sphere only where they loudly "battle" the "right" and everything else important to voters is controller not by a system where every person has one and only one vote and all votes count the same, but by a system where each dollar is a "vote" and some people have billions more "votes" than others - in other words, it's not Democracy anymore because in most domains the vote which is equal for all individuals controls nothing at all.
I'm not fully familiar with the politics in Canada (though what I've seen of the Liberals is basically what I describe above), but all of this shit is painfully obvious in both the US and Britain, plus it has already infiltrated the rest of Europe to quite an extent (especially the EU, since Neoliberals use its supranational powers which are supposedly to facilitate Trade Integration, to force Neoliberal policies on countries, especially those in the Eurozone).
Anyways, all this to say that the increasing Authoritarianism you see in the more Neoliberal countries is the mainstream "center" parties which control power making sure they can detect and subvert early any civil society movements which might wrestly power away from them - in other words, the final destruction of whatever is left of Democracy and the path which is still left through the vote to undo the Oligarchic system (which would require the mainstream parties to lose most of their vote to alternatives naturally born from the civil society which weren't just puppets created by wealthy individuals, something which already is very difficult in countries with First Past The Post systems and which total civil society surveilance is meant to make impossible)
Higher-stakes, less-entertaining professional wrestling.
Personally I'm more of a believer in the saying "Politics is Acting for ugly people".
Obvious answer is because they are not liberal, calling yourself liberal just works better in elections. After the elections they do what they were paid for.
Both sides are equally authoritarian once in control.
That is not today's problem. The Brian Mulroney conservatives don't have a home in the party of extemeists that is lead by pp, or Erin O'Toole, or Andrew Scheer. Now the Liberals are right of center and lean strongly into neo-lib ideology. Justin Trudeau was a neo-lib hiding under the veneer of decent social policy. Jagmeet Singh was also a neo-lib. Our progressive politicians suck right now.
Based on what happened with their e-mail, I imagine if the courts mandated IP logging for VPNs, Proton would still advertise their no-logs policy until they get caught out in a scandal and then silently update their marketing material & privacy policy afterwards. lol
ProtonMail 2018:
Now, Swiss courts have never tried to force us to log IPs, and the law is not completely clearly if we have to comply or not. If we got such a request, we would probably fight it just to test this out.
Did they ever end up fighting anything out? lol
I doubt they did - they only speak up for the fictional customer, meanwhile silently complying to whatever government requests user data from them.
They still don‘t log your IP and advocate to not even give them your data, though. If you give them your credit card number and then use their services to sell illegal substances and if authorities of your country then find your e-mail address and contact Proton about it then their hands are pretty much tied. If you use one of their offered anonymous ways to pay for their services then there is nothing they can give authorities. Ultimately it‘s your job to take care of your identity and Proton offers ways to protect it.
You should contact Proton and tell them they need to rewrite their homepage.
We are a neutral and safe haven for your personal data, committed to defending your freedom.
Our technology and business are based upon this fundamentally stronger definition of privacy, backed also by Swiss privacy laws.
Proton is based in Switzerland, and your data does not go to the cloud. Instead, it stays under the protection of some of the world’s strongest privacy laws.
Also Proton: "metadata logging does not count as logging, and handing our logs, I mean non existent logs that only contains totally useless metadata, over to the Swiss government is fine because its the Swiss law"
I kinda want to see what they handed over. They cannot get around the fact that they need to be able to handover data when legally asked with a warrant.
But I do kinda want to see if it is actually useless metadata or it is just our entire history.
Most likely, the logs consist of what IPs are leased to what users, when the connections start and end, and what IPs those users are connecting from. A VPN company may keep the logs for something like 2 days.
Let's say you torrent something while connected to a VPN and one of the peers in the torrent pool is actually a DMCA agent associated with IP-Echelon. The DMCA agent will record the IP address you have at the time and generate a DMCA notice. It will then look up who owns the IP address to determine where to send the DMCA notice. When the VPN company receives the DMCA notice, it will use the logs to determine who was leasing the IP address at the time in question. If the logs no longer exist, the notice effectively gets tossed because the VPN company has no way of knowing what account was downloading the torrent. But if the notice was sent quickly enough for the logs to still exist, the VPN company will forward the DMCA notice to the user that was using the IP at the time. In that case, it will work the same way as a normal ISP. You'll probably get a warning with something like a 3 strike policy. In such a case, the VPN will cut your VPN service on the third strike.
Presumably, it could work the same way for anything. I used to work for a VPN company a decade ago, and this was pretty much the industry standard. It, like all VPN companies, advertised itself as having no logging.
The best way to prove you don't hold any logs is by doing on audit on it.
In the story you explained it would be better to not use a VPN since Dutch providers don't share your name when somebody comes to them with a list of IP's.
Thank you for the response though!
To be clear, a VPN provider effectively works the same way as an ISP. If you use a Dutch VPN, it will follow the exact same rules as a Dutch ISP. Given, you should verify that it actually is based out of that location and not just incorporated there with no office and a PO box. In a DMCA situation, the DMCA agents generally are never told the identities of anyone by an ISP or VPN provider. But the ISP or VPN provider forwards the notice to the user with the associated account as they're legally required to do. If the worst case scenario happens and you get your VPN service cut, you've still got your ISP and can just move to a different VPN provider. Having your ISP service cut, on the other hand, may leave you with no service options at all. You don't get privacy with a VPN, but you do get a stopgap like that.
Edit: Also signing up for VPNs that don't record your personal information is probably a good practice as well.
Mullvad got the best advertising ever in this regard: they literally got the police at the door and the police didn't found a shit, hillarious
The normal police is always bad at finding digital info. You want them to be audited and/or raided by the finance police (not sure how that is calld where they are located)
I lost my info on whether I'd signed up for mullvad already, so I sent them an email asking if I had an account with them.
They told me to get fucked.
I then bought an account, not caring then whether it was redundant.
In that case, it will work the same way as a normal ISP. You’ll probably get a warning with something like a 3 strike policy. In such a case, the VPN will cut your VPN service on the third strike.
It also depends on where you live. In my country, copyright infringement is just a small fine, and you can get dozens of those copyright letters from your ISP and be fine.
I worked for a VPN company a decade ago that advertised no logging. It was all BS. They absolutely logged. Maybe they only kept the logs for something like 48 hours, but I'm pretty sure all VPNs have some kind of logging going on. Anyway, a VPN by itself does not give you any privacy. Websites have a billion ways to fingerprint you, and they don't even need cookies to do it.
privacy implies vpn (or some mix-net), but not the opposite... so if you want privacy, you need a vpn, but a vpn by itself doesn't give you privacy
It's a small step out of many. And there's enough steps now that an average person is pretty much never going to have it, unfortunately. But there is more and less exposed. There's untraceable, and there's traceable with more effort than anyone will likely bother. Considering countries like russia have tried and failed to block VPNs, they're certainly worth something.
I'd argue that VPNs remain one of the highest return-on-investment (time and money) steps towards online security, as many gaps as they do have in the big picture.
It's not going to make you untraceable. But it'll make you difficult enough to trace that nobody's gonna put forth the effort to target you specifically unless you've attracted like, nation-state attention. (Targeting you as a member of some demographic a la advertisers, yeah not much effect).
VPNs are to protect you against your ISP, that is about it. I guess sailing the high seas also since fingerprinting doesn't apply as much. Also getting around authoritarian government blocks.
It is a small piece of the puzzle.
Pretty sure even a VPN does nothing if you're on a cellphone as well isn't it?
Like all cellphones carry a unique identifier, that's how, say, reddit can keep you banned even if you start a new account under new email and a vpn.
I don't think Reddit would have that. They likely just use your browser fingerprint. Check this out: https://amiunique.org/fingerprint
Between just my uncommon device, my languages spoken, and rough location (timezone), I'm actually crazy identifiable, yikes.
Well I'm not sure how else they keep you banned. I was fine on my desktop under a new account and email but even with a VPN and fresh accounts it banned me, sometimes within seconds on my cell phone. Got a new phone like a year later and could get an account (obv)
I just paid $80 for one year of proton. 2 years ago I paid $40 for 2 years.
Use information however you will.
I’m guessing you had a one time deal 2 years ago?
Perhaps. It was two years ago. I honestly don't remember.
Shit I pay $178 something for 2 years for one person but I get the full suite
honestly if they have to move countries due to the bill its like the best advertisement ever.
They sure try to advertise on that but they are a Swiss company so Canadian laws have little to do with them.
I think their biggest impact will be they'll have to pull their Canadian servers and stop selling to Canadians.
thats what I mean. If they actually do that it really shows they mean business (I know an ironic turn of phrase in this instance) when it comes to their policies. I get a little doubtful about vpns but if they leave the canadian market do to this law it would show they stand by what they say.
This is incredibly naive. They might not be based out of Canada, but they do business in Canada. They have customers and infrastructure in Canada. Canadian laws are very relevant to their business.
Also they scammed their way (liberals) to a majority by absorbing resigning NDP members and THEN they pushed this bullshit. They're anti democratic and aligned with the pedo elite in reducing our lives to nothing since 2020. Cant wait for the revolution to start and ill be among those hanging these bastards by the neck. Idgaf about a list, hi SCRS agent.
Ah yes, Proton, infamous for being the knee and ratting out activists to the authorities, pretends it has any semblance of a spine left.
every single one of those cases was the activist fucking up basic opsec not proton. They are open about the metadata stored and that they can be forced to comply by court order.
Meanwhile on Proton'a homepage:
We are a neutral and safe haven for your personal data, committed to defending your freedom.
Our technology and business are based upon this fundamentally stronger definition of privacy, backed also by Swiss privacy laws.
Proton is based in Switzerland, and your data does not go to the cloud. Instead, it stays under the protection of some of the world’s strongest privacy laws.
Maybe those activists should‘ve chosen anonymity over convenience. Proton offers ways to protect yourself. They just take a little bit of effort.
They were following a court order and only provided account metadata.
Some Proton Employee really contacted me here on lemmy to basically say that Proton could never do anything malicious, because they are owned by a non profit. Then how the heck can OpenAI be this scummy when they are also owned by a non profit? (See my Comment History)
Protons PR Team is so scummy. They spread misinformation about themselves in public forums and pay Content Creators to say incorrect things about online privacy to sell products to customers that don't need those products.
Wrapping yourself in the appearance of activism is an effective and cheap marketing tool! You'll get articles written about your bravery.
They’ll say anything just to distract their users away from them being caught red handed in the act of giving away their data to the governments all around the world.
Classic business marketing.
I kinda want to read more into it before I move all my services from Proton, do you have some links?
And do you have an alternative I can use?
https://cyberinsider.com/protonmail-logs-users/
https://www.404media.co/proton-mail-helped-fbi-unmask-anonymous-stop-cop-city-protestor/
https://cyberinsider.com/protonmail-discloses-user-data-leading-to-arrest-in-spain/
https://theintercept.com/2025/09/12/proton-mail-journalist-accounts-suspended/
I’ve been following this on X/Twitter and I think one of the most egregious things that’s important to point out is that folks from Phrack reached out to Proton in private multiple times, and Proton ghosted them. Proton only engaged with them and then reinstated the accounts after Phrack went public and their X/Twitter post went viral.
It also looks like one of the writers filed an appeal with Proton and Proton denied the appeal, so they manually investigated the incident and refused to reinstate the account and then only did after this got attention on X/Twitter.
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