1641
Totally normal, totally cool (lemmy.world)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[+] 219 points 6 months ago (2 children)
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    • [–] 154 points 6 months ago (26 children)

    Why does he even pick the case of a 12-year hold pregnant person ? Isn't that like, the case were almost everyone can agree that abortion makes even more sense than usual ? Have i missed that somehow conservatives consider it to be worse than when adult people abort ?

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  • [–] 83 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    makes even more sense than usual

    You're talking about the all-or-nothing, absolute rule, zero-sum game gang, here. The concept of nuance is so far removed from the conservative headspace, it may as well be science fiction.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago*

    Some conservatives at least see some nuance. My grandmother is against abortion but okay with it in cases where the baby would have died anyway. She also agrees that it's fucked up to punish women for having miscarriages.

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  • [–] 51 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I think their idea here is that 12 year olds should be in school instead of sneaking around getting abortions. Which makes sense if you don't care about context or lack basic humanity

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago

    12 year olds should be in school instead of sneaking around getting abortions.

    Absolutely! That's why sex education, and talking about consent and safety are ao important.

    An 12 year old needing an abortion is such a tragedy, it should be prevented. But if it comes to that, if it is needed, she should have access to safe medical care.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago

    I know when I was 12 everyone was getting abortions. It was just the cool thing to do. Some girls would get together and have sleepover abortion parties. I went and got one myself just to see what all the fuss was about. Of course as a guy I got some pushback initially, but eventually I joined the cool crowd

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  • [–] 19 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    No. No abortion makes sense to them (except their own wives') when they use it as justification to remove agency and bodily autonomy from women.

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  • [–] 22 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

    except their own wives'

    You dispelled mistress.

    Edit: dispelled should be misspelled :)

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Is that was a wizard does when his wife catches him cheating?

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Most 12 year olds would risk death to give birth, so yes, most people would agree that both on the grounds that it's a raped child and on the grounds that the pregnancy could be fatal to the mother.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago* (4 children)

    Maybe where they live a 12 year old girl can be expected to drive? So getting to a medical center two hours away is easy and convenient? and the nearest medical center is 2 hours away

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    It says "travel" which can mean by foot, bike, hitchhiking, zeppelin, the list goes on and on

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Right. So it’s ok for a 12 year old pregnant girl to walk two hours to a medical center by themselves? No matter how correct and complete you try to be, there’s all kinds of wrong with this picture

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago

    No, what you missed is that these people are all pedophiles, and part of their weird Christian nationalism is that they hate women having agency, so they need to be impregnating them before that happens.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    It's implied in their text that the 12-year old girl is the child of leftists and because of that is already sexually active. Since the left is sex positive that obviously means they're teaching their kids to be deviants by a very young age. Obviously daughter of proper right wing Christian Americans would never do that because she blah, blah, blah.

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    • [+] 98 points 6 months ago (20 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 60 points 6 months ago (7 children)

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    Charlie who?

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    A relative of Captain Kirk ... maybe.

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  • [–] 19 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    Wait, not to be a total asshole about someone’s name but I thought the -lyn suffix was pretty feminine? This man was set up to fail by his parents.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    One of the big fads about 20 years ago or so was portmanteaus of parent’s names. So, for instance, Ashley and Richard would give birth to Richley. I have no idea how old this person is but maybe something like that happened here?

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  • [–] 18 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Riley

    Or Asshard

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Maybe he's trans?

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  • [–] 27 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Nah, don't blame that shit on us.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I thought about that response, then remembered that Caitlin Jenner exists. So it is at least possible for a trans person to be a hateful MAGA bigot, even if it's unlikely.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Trans people can be hateful all on their own, but there is a troubling tendency I’ve noticed to paint all loathsome political figures as secretly queer. By contrast it’s rare to see a queer person’s misbehavior used to insinuate they’re actually cis and straight. I think it’s important to consider the way that attitude steers people towards thinking of queer people as deceptive or more prone to criminal behavior, consciously or not.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    there is a troubling tendency I’ve noticed to paint all loathsome political figures as secretly queer. By contrast it’s rare to see a queer person’s misbehavior used to insinuate they’re actually cis and straight.

    I think you're taking this differently than it's usual intention.

    Talking about how hateful conservatives are secretly queer isn't actually about the queerness at all. It's about them hiding that fact, often because of religious indoctrination and their specific social circle of hatred to anything non-cis. So they in turn hate themselves and feel the need to hide that and take the hatred out on others because they're not "allowed" to be themselves, so no one else should either.

    The fact that there are so many examples of this just helps reinforce the assumption that these shitty people do have an underlying social pressure causing their behavior. Sort of the exact opposite of what you describe.

    At least that's always been the way I've taken those discussions. Because the alternative is just they are a shitty excuse for a human being.

    The people seeing queers as something like deceptive are those same pieces of shit that are hiding in the first place, the same projection they use for everything else in their life.

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    • [–] 73 points 6 months ago

    If a 12-year-old girl got raped and became pregnant, I'd rather live in a country in which she can contact medical services on her own, receive medical care without cost, and then the medical services contact the authorities, which can then investigate how a child became pregnant. Starting with the parents. Such things are quite often caused by close relatives.

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    [+] 61 points 6 months ago (29 children)
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  • [–] 32 points 6 months ago (22 children)

    Anti-abortion is a position exclusively for unreasonable or irrational people.

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  • [+] -8 points 6 months ago (19 children)

    Same as the other polar extreme dogma.

    ... Gotta be some remedies for that, so people are alleviated of their unreasonableness and irrationality.

    ... ... Mattias Desmet's book The Psychology of Totalitarianism springs to mind. Main thrust of remedy is to keep speaking sensible nuance to those in a mass formation/groupthink/totalitarianised-psyche, even though it seems risky as they increasingly see any and all atrocities as necessary virtues, and double-down all the harder the more they're confronted with the contradictions, the self-inconsistency, ... which does seem more than just dangerous, but then you've got to compare that risk of danger with the greater escalating harm into worsening atrocities that happens all the faster when they go unchallenged.

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  • [+] 8 points 6 months ago (9 children)
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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I think you're another responder to this who has missed what was meant there, not letting your imagination go far enough.

    The opposite of an absolute dogma of no abortions is not some abortions. It's all abortions. ... Which is the political philosophy of some misanthropes (some of whom are very rich and powerful).

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  • [+] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago

    Oh boy...

    * reads the rules before responding... "Be civil".*

    ... This may be challenging to respond to, as I think I've run out of ability to calmly and kindly clear up the miscommunication/mistake, as your not-even-wrong double-down still misses the point straight after I had clarified (~ or so I thought I had ~ but that seems completely missed), parodying Jam's "thick people" scene. And not only making the not-even-wrong fallacy, but also completely missing the broader principle [pro nuance, not falling for the manufactured divisive psyop'd groupthinks, the variety of perspectives, the other extreme, and especially, not falling for (nor being complicit in) the mutual unwitting abuse of cunningham's law], doubling down even on that, insisting there are only 2 sides... What hope of receiving new information and nuance with that kind of thing going on?

    [Perhaps drifting off-topic] When stuff like that goes on, I wonder about chemical lobotomisation via fluoride, mercury, aluminium, aspartame/aminosweet, anti-nutrients, etc, where the fine grain neuro-connections keep getting mowed down before they can facilitate ease of conceiving of new ideas, where the entrenched ideas grow on and on strengthening the pre-existing neuro-connections. Though/And also, again, evokes thoughts of Mattias Desmet's explorations of the psychology of totalitarianism, in the "There are only" (and even the "which really shouldn’t even be a debate"), as that speaks to the reductive certainty of the one true way. Daunting.

    ... And just before I posted that... Thinking about how daunting it is, how pro division, how anti-nuance, trolling by playing dumb doing the very thing just called out, etc.... And then my concern about my civility (rule 1) turns to my concern about your sapience (or not, as per rule 4 and 5 (no bots, no ai generated content)), and that (as per the old advice "don't argue with fools as onlookers may not be able to tell you apart"), perhaps I should not have succumbed to xkcd386 here. [LOL. Cue the downvotes! (Over the target when taking fire?)]

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  • [–] -5 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    ...is that first part supposed to be a serious argument? The other side would say the exact same thing. It's also an issue that inherently will never be black and white because children don't develop in discrete stages, you can never point to a specific time and say "until here it's ok". Some of the arguments for abortion even still apply post-birth, such as the parents not being capable of caring for the child properly, making everyone including the child miserable. And the child a day before birth isn't all that different from the child the day after.

    I'd choose birth as the arbitrary cutoff point just because the child stops being part of the mother at that time and we have to put a limit somewhere, but I'd probably lose a lot of people with that (and I'd also still say that's the right thing).

    When there exist people unironically making the argument that factory farming is good actually because any life is better than no life, of course there will be a lot more wanting to just defend life for the sake of it even if it just makes everyone involved more miserable.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    I feel like you're not stating your arguement very well because I don't actually understand the point you're trying to make. There is the anti-abortion crowd and then that's it, there is no other side to the arguement.

    People who are pro-choice are all about enabling others to make their own determinations, people who are anti-abortion are against people being able to make their own determinations. The difference is the pro-choice crowd aren't forcing abortions on people who don't want them, which would be the antithesis viewpoint. You see how the are not equivalent?

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  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Just want to say I appreciate you having the courage to provide counterpoints in a very biased space.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    They're not providing counter viewpoints They're just being intransitive. There is no such thing as the force everyone to have abortions viewpoint so they are arguing in bad faith.

    A lot of their comments are completely nonsensical as well, e.g.

    When there exist people unironically making the argument that factory farming is good actually because any life is better than no life

    I mean what the hell has that got to do with anything? We're supposed to be talking about the morality of abortions and they throw in animal cruelty in there as if that's some kind of counterpoint. Also I don't think literally anyone thinks that factory farming is moral because otherwise the animals would never have existed, I've never heard of anyone espouse that view. Not that it would matter even if they did, because it's got literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    I actually have heard people espouse that view, but I haven’t gone further than that as it’s usually coming from people who don’t really want to debate animal ethics.

    It’s technically related since someone might believe that creating life and avoiding death is more important than any amount of suffering. It makes endorsing factory farming and anti-abortion logically consistent. But it’s a technicality because I don’t think people have really thought that hard about it, ergo I agree with you it’s nonsensical.

    I thought their first and even second paragraphs are reasonable. They were not advocating for forced abortions or post birth abortions. I’m not clear on your objection.

    Also just generally in this thread, I’m seeing the pro life camp being boiled down to “anti choice”. Sure, that isn’t untrue. To restrict abortion rights is to restrict the choices of women. And to put them at medical risk in some cases, and to potentially bring a child into a world of misery.

    But if you’re starting from the premise of “it’s hard to say when life starts, we have to pick an arbitrary point, and I pick conception” then it’s logically consistent to call it murder after that point, and it’s reasonable to weigh the abortive rights of women against the morality of murder in that context.

    To be clear, I don’t think life-worth-protecting starts at conception. I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I just wish that us in the pro-choice camp acknowledged the problem as not so simple.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Same as the other polar extreme dogma.

    My friend, after reading the rest of your comment, I suspect this is just a very unfortunate choice of words. Because you go on to talk about totalitarianism and although totalitarian regimes can force people to get abortions, it's not a commonly held political view, at least among Westerners.

    I suspect you meant to say "other extreme dogma." But your use of "the" and "polar" would make every native English speaker think you intended to say "same as the extreme polar opposite dogma," which means you're talking about pro-choice extremism specifically.

    I can't be sure that you didn't intend that meaning. If you did intend to mean pro-choice extremism, then you brought the response upon yourself. But if you didn't, may I suggest you be more careful with wording, especially in your first sentences?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    which means you’re talking about pro-choice extremism specifically.

    LOL! No. XD

    Pro-choice sounds much more like a sane middle ground. Use your imagination, go further than the middle (~ which may or may not be a dogmatically held position), to the other polar extreme than abortions=none, to the misanthropic anthrocidal all.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (6 children)

    There is no polar extreme opposite of the anti abortion argument. It doesn't exist.

    Nobody is happy about getting an abortion. Some people might feel relief, but it's not something they want to go through.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Also the equivalent extreme to the anti choice side would be "everyone is forced to have abortions" which while something close has been done (namely via population control methods and eugenics) those are widely agreed upon by the pro choice side to be similarly evil to prohibiting all abortions for the same reason (denial of bodily autonomy). In fact, in the modern day the eugenicists typically vote for the same parties as the ones wanting to prohibit abortions.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    Thanks for getting it.

    From a couple of the other replies here, I was starting to feel gaslight; I was starting to feel ilithiophbia.

    In fact, in the modern day the eugenicists typically vote for the same parties as the ones wanting to prohibit abortions.

    Yep. Same basic political philosophy of them telling others what to do, what they can do, what they can't do, who they can be, who's allowed to be, etc..

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

    There is no polar extreme opposite of the anti abortion argument. It doesn’t exist.

    Bold claim. Let me introduce you to some misanthropic extremists who want all babies aborted, and all people killed.

    Nobody is happy about getting an abortion.

    Bold claim. Let me introduce you to some edge case exceptional ladies.

    Some people might feel relief, but it’s not something they want to go through.

    Some may indeed, but also, some rare few are going further. ... Some of which I suspect an irrational reflexive over-"correction" to a hostile groupthink and the language used, unfortunately creating the counter-groupthink, even unto, as mentioned in my original comment there, mass formation and totalitarianised psyche, where any and all atrocities are seen as necessary virtues. I don't think being arrogantly presumptive and ignorant in denial of such socio-psyche problems lends any real world help to create the nice world in your mind where such extremes do not exist, not even in your imagination. We've much to mend in this world.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Lol Jesus Christ dude... Talk about nonsense.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    There's a group that see falling teenage pregnancy and say that's the reason birth rates are falling In the west. They then equate falling birth rates with the erasure of culture. Therefore, in their head, teenage pregnancy is necessary as is carrying it to term.

    A wholly messed up view.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    It's even worst than that, yes it's all that AND it doesn't apply to them, namely they'll shout that insanity to each other, and the whole World, to see but when it's "them" then they, rationally of course, find a clinic. Absolutely garbage of human beings who are not coherent. Do as I say, not as I do.

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    • [–] 61 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    That's cause she probably wanted it, look at how she was dressed.

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    • [–] 44 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    Well, it most definitely should be closer. It's already emotionally taxing enough for the child to do it on their own and hide it. No point to make it worse by having to travel that far.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Love your username. Hope you're good. ❤️

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    • [–] 84 points 6 months ago

    The classic discussion

    "We're fighting for the sanctity of life"

    "while grilling a piece of animal on the grill"

    "Human life"

    "Yet people die because of lack of healthcare or malnutrition"

    "Children"

    "And stil child mortality is rising"

    "Unborn life"

    "Yet we polute the environment and with that the unborn child"

    "It has a heartbeat, okay!"

    "So does a Leftist"

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    [–] 22 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I feel really bad for laughing at this.

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    • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    So let me guess, his solution is to register all menstruating women and restrict them from leaving state lines right? Freedom.

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