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[–] 174 points 10 months ago (32 children)

...using gigawatts of power that aren't available on the grid

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  • [+] 61 points 10 months ago (31 children)
  • [+] -24 points 10 months ago (28 children)
  • [–] 41 points 10 months ago

    see that's crap because they need muni clean water; it's gotta come from SOMEWHERE, and your muni water system wasn't setup to feed a city AND a bunch of datacenters. so it's gonna have to expand - and who's gonna pay for that? NOT THE AI. The people will pay for it, every fucking time.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    Agriculture uses so much more water. Just so we can grow corn so it can be turned into ethanol. "AI" uses so much more energy though. and it'll only get worse, the more "advanced" the llms become, the more energy they're going to require.

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    And creating energy is also using large amounts of water.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    it typically uses non-potable water though, and that water is then typically evaporated as steam which then in precipitated back down, or it's directly routed back into the stream it came from, which is the case in hydroelectric systems

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Energy use is a more real concern, yes.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Most of the water used by "AI" is in energy generation though, so you're both right.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    to me it's simply not an either:or it's an yes:and

    the utility customers of these municipalities aren't being told about the construction of AI data centers, because so many come with NDA strings.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/data-center-ai-google-amazon-nda-non-disclosure-agreement-colossus-rcna236423

    we don't have infinite potable water. it's going to come from municipal supplies. they're going to stick the cost to these communities, and probably stress cities that are already water-fucked even more:

    https://wetravelwebond.com/13-u-s-cities-on-the-brink-of-a-water-crisis/

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I suggest you read the article I posted, or if you don't feel like reading, maybe listening to what's being said in the YouTube video.

    There are some very real concerns with everything happening around AI. Water is quite simply not one of them. Focus your energy on criticisms based in reality.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    I'd already seen Green's video. I agree it's a small thing compared to the power, but in a world obviously running out of easily accessible potable water, it's only going to exacerbate problems for the communities that are already being hit by the relentless power costs due to AI as well.

    This isn't a one or the other thing. They'll need water for cooling. It's not recycled. it's got to be clean, potable water.

    we do not live in an infinite muni-water supply.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    Yeah, thanks, this random substack and YouTube video definitely are credible and trustworthy sources.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (11 children)

    As opposed to the many reputable news sources and scientific publications that run contrary?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    I mean, I'm certain that if you consider there to be many reputable scientific publications having studies to the contrary, you should at least be able to post a single one, right?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Sure. Here is a decent one:

    Environment and sustainability development: A ChatGPT perspective

    Priyanka Bhaskar, Neha Seth

    Applied Data Science and Smart Systems, 54-62, 2024

    Point is finding it or the dozens like it take like 2 seconds on Google scholar.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Great!

    Now, where in the paper did you find the primary claims about water consumption?

    (There are none. You didn't read the paper)

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Well, I suppose one of us didn't. XD

    Or at least couldn't make it to section V. They mentioned the common claim, for instance, that GPT 3 alone took three quarters of a million gallons of water to train (roughly the footprint of 3-400) cars.

    But, please, keep congratulating yourself. I was selection based on the criteria of (1) easy to read (2) multiple environmental issues listed.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    if you can refute it please do.

    don't talk about it, do it.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    Fuck man, read one of the myriad of studies. Not some blog blog post. XD

    When it comes to ludicrous and bullshit "evidence" you don't get to challenge the world to refute something.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    normally that would be a sensible tact.

    Yet, you came here to say "As opposed to the many reputable news sources and scientific publications that run contrary?"

    with not even a cunthair of evidence for those contrary points. "nuh uh you should search I'm right but can't be fucked to give a shred of evidence"

    you fucking fuckheads

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    I'm 4 pages into a paper on the subject. Want something on air pollution, check out grok in Memphis. Something about water table distruction, check the rural New York one.

    If you want me to cite something obscure like some strangeness between weak and strong NP-Completeness? Sure. That makes sense.

    If someone wants me to cite a source regarding whether prime numbers are real I'm just going to tell them to stop being stupid and ask Google.

    That is how simple this one is. I have hundreds of citations, both scientific and mass media. They took almost zero effort to find.

    I would challenge you to avoid being lazy and stupid.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I’m 4 pages into a paper on the subject.

    am intimately familiar with the shitshow in Memphis.

    searching new york data center water table destruction gives some links to stories related to datacenter water use but nothing specific to NY or AI. duckduckgo and google (non ai) searched.

    I would challenge your assumptions but you're just an asshole. Have a great life.

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    [+] 85 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 63 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    profits that won't happen

    I have yet to see speculation as to how the bubble survivors make a profit. At this point I think AI is being pushed to keep propping up the US economy.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago

    You're not alone in thinking that. The US economy is growing but all of that is allocated to 5 companies, and in any case the owners of that equity aren't a majority median income earners. We've essentially decoupled the economic health of the common person, who would actually spend on the bubble survivors, from the overall "strength" of the US economy.

    An interesting discussion on that thought about halfway through this - https://www.ft.com/content/bd6545dc-41b7-42db-af77-b2f32a1c9ae1

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  • [–] 59 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    If we have to play this bubble game, can we at least force them to build some renewable energy sources with their unlimited funds so when the bubble pops, we have some extra renewable energy available to the grid?

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  • [–] 58 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Pretty sure Trump banned woke energy

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  • [–] 30 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It won’t affect energy prices, because the nuclear power plants they’re building to power their data centers are going to be up and running any minute now.

    Just keep the golden investment teet flowing until it’s dry.

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  • [–] 30 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 60 points 10 months ago

    This actually explains a few things for me.

    I never considered that RAM and GPUs could be traded as futures, but obviously they can...

    This also reminds me of the trader at a trading company in London who had to take delivery of 28000 tonnes of coal due to forgetting to sell a future he owned.

    He only found out as the receptionist asked him to come down and sign for it and he saw barges of coal coming down the river:

    https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Special-Delivery

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  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago

    Like Ford stopping producing batteries for their own cars (byd says thanks) in order to convert the factory for datacenter-class batteries

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  • [–] 64 points 10 months ago* (16 children)

    I'm going to be that guy and point out that LLM's are not really "AI", that's just the corporate buzzword but "AI" is a loosely defined thing.

    I think we should all get better at calling them LLM's publicly to take some of the magic woo-woo away.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    "Big Data", "Neural Net", etc etc, they keep changing the buzzword for this crap for the past decade.

    AI just resonates with the public because everyone has seen Terminator movies. Your dipshit CEO of Buttplugs Inc has no clue what an LLM, or neural net is. But he knows what AI is and he delusionally believes it's going make Buttplug inc. more profitable in the future.

    It's effective marketing.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Yeah, for all the undeserved hype about AI that we and I'm sure plenty of C-suites know about, there is still the issue of fiduciary duty to their bosses (shareholders).

    If you're a tech CEO that knows it's all crap, but the market conditions are such that going all-in on AI is going to triple your share price for no good reason, you'll probably be in a "get that money or we'll find somebody who will" situation.

    But that's also why executives get so much of their compensation in the form of stock. There's no need for shareholders to get off their asses to demand short term gains they can cash in on when the decision makers are one of them and playing the game game.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    i saw my first hover board in back to the future, the pink one. now it’s that overpriced exploding segway.

    at least the name segway was almost creative

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    if hover boards were legit real you'd have so many injuries the company would be sued into insolvency.

    already starting to see this with ebikes... massive increases in head trauma numbers since they became popular. mostly from old people buying a $5000 e bike and then riding it w/o a helmet at 15-20mph.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    if hover boards were legit real you'd have so many injuries the company would be sued into insolvency.

    I'm so sad we're not seeing this with AI. The injuries we get, the insolvency not so much. Fuck.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Right, but in the same spirit, we're not just talking about LLMs. If we're being accurate, the common interface we're used to with ChatGPT or Gemini, they are a system of different models including LLMs and other models for images, or sound.

    If we're talking AI in movies and music, besides LLMs for writing, we're mainly concerned with diffusion models

    If we're talking AI for wearables... That's usually more on the sensor/classification side of ML, so it's not even generative.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    yes, I'll call them AI when they are sentient D:

    I was spoiled by Iain Banks's Culture <3

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Iain M. Banks, don't ya know!?!?

    I'm still saving a culture book or two to enjoy, but the entire setting has been amazing.

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago
    [–] 20 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Probably no other world in the multiverse has warehouses for things which only exist in potentia, but the pork futures warehouse in Ankh-Morpork is a product of the Patrician’s rules about baseless metaphors, the literal-mindedness of citizens who assume that everything must exist somewhere, and the general thinness of the fabric of reality around Ankh, which is so thin that it’s as thin as a very thin thing. The net result is that trading in pork futures—in pork that doesn’t exist yet—led to the building of the warehouse to store it in until it does.

    Terry Pratchett, Thud!

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    That's so freaking funny. Pratchett was just so good.

    If I recall correctly that's the same warehouse that later supercools a golem, making him very smart for a bit.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Sargent Detritus the troll.. he ends up making a cooling system in his helmet in later books

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    Ah right that makes sense, thanks! Something was nagging at me earlier, about the Golems being hollow and following the paper in their head, so it didn't make perfect sense. I forgot the trolls were made of rock!

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago

    This is peak bubble type shit.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago

    This is all just gambling with a bunch of cheaters. They can't use crypto schemes as much because people FINALLY figured out they were pump and dump scams .... so AI investment it is.

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  • [–] 28 points 10 months ago* (15 children)

    So they can replace all workers. and won’t be able to make profit because they layed off all of the workers. Why do we need a government if they are investing all our resources in phasing us out? If you don’t work in our system you die so why are we allowing this again?

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  • [–] 28 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Because idiots think that if we let the super rich become ultra rich then they will somehow in turn become regular rich.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    Because people are stupid, the difference in intelligence between the stupidest and smartest people is increasing, and democracy puts the decision making process in the hands of the masses which are intrinsically stupid

    It's a whole system designed for "intelligent" (read: manipulative, immoral, rich) people to take advantage of stupid people, and it works wonderfully in their favor.

    And there's fuck all an average person can do about it besides attempt to deal with the stupid people and convince them to do more intelligent things.

    I hate it here. I want to be surrounded by people capable of reason already...

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    If only capitalist democracy put the decision making power in the hands of the masses. We would have universal healthcare by now and like none of the wars of the past 30 years.

    No, really it’s the capitalists who make decisions, and they’ve designed it so that the people who own capital can take advantage of the people who don’t own capital. It’s got very little to do with smart vs stupid, and very much to do with “has” vs “has not.”

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I, too, have a fundamental hatred of the bell curve humanity finds itself on. I have better things I want to do than convince a bunch of dumb fucks to make better decisions. The psychopaths on the other hand delight in manipulating idiots. This is why I believe we should genetically study psychopathy and CRISPR that shit away.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

    The rich have it going both ways. They have convinced a subset of the lower classes to fight amongst and blame each other. Meanwhile they very shortdightedly are maximizing profits (not from the lower classes anymore because they have essentially bled us dry) but from other rich people who want to invest to maximize profits.

    They have forgotten that the only way capitalism remains sustainable over time is if they continue to both provide products and services lower class individuals will spend money on, and if they continue to pay those lower class individuals money so they have money to spend. Right now they're busy grifting each other and our government is too stupid to look to the future, realize that the bubble has to pop sometime, and realize what that will mean for the market, the tax system, the tax payers, and the populace at large.

    This is class warfare for profits over literally everything and it is going to crash the economy probably sooner rather than later.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    There are two kinds of parasites:

    1. A smart parasite keeps its host alive. It limits the substance it leeches, prioritizing long term survival over short term satisfaction.
    2. A dumb parasite takes as much as it can. Even if it causes the host to die, and the parasite to die with it.

    Of course - "smart" and "dumb" are used liberally here. The organism itself is not intelligent, and neither is the process who designed it. At least - that's how it works in nature.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    So basically neoliberals are smart parasites and republicans are dumb parasites

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    It's more of an informed host and an uninformed host.

    The parasites are the corps. Some of us know that we're the product and we do what we can to mitigate that. But there's not a real feasible way to opt out of society. People gotta eat. People gotta sleep. They gotta provide for their families. They gotta have shelter. They gotta figure out ways not to freeze to death. Ways to stay healthy.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    We have the power to cut out the corporations and oligarchs from the means of production. We really don’t need them. They are parasites. We simply (the majority) stop allowing worker exploitation and the ownership class to exist. They need the workers to enforce their social contract but the social contract has been broken for a long time. We simply stop recognizing their corrupt laws, property rights and money and start trading. They don’t have the manpower to stop us from continuing to produce food and necessities en masse while ignoring their broken system of extravagance, gambling and exploitation.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    So what will it do to memory prices if the AI bubble pops right now?

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  • [–] 27 points 10 months ago*

    Prices stay elevated but stop increasing, because, as we've learned from the "supply chain issues" of covid, prices must never come down even if the supposed cause of price increases is resolved.

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago

    Three ideas, one, memory chip makers pivot back to their usual lanes (maybe we get a glut and prices drop). Two, memory chip makers sink and bought by new memory chip makers (maybe more competition). Three, memory chip makers implode and machines are lost (production loss and prices shoot up). Any of these options will probably result in prices remaining the same sadly.

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