In the top one you will never actually kill an infinite number of people, just approach it linearly. The bottom one will kill an infinite amount of people in finite time.
Edit: assuming constant speed of the train.
In the top one you will never actually kill an infinite number of people, just approach it linearly. The bottom one will kill an infinite amount of people in finite time.
Edit: assuming constant speed of the train.
Use the fact that a set of people corresponding to the real numbers are laying in a single line to prove that the real numbers are countable, thus throwing the mathematics community into chaos, and using this as a distraction to sabotage the trolley and save everybody.
I pull the lever, if the cart goes over the real numbers it will instantly kill an infinite amount of people and continue killing an infinite amount of people for every moment for the rest of existence.
If I pull the lever a finite amount of people will die instantly and slowly over time tending twords infinity but due to the linear nature of movement it would never actually reach Infinity even if there are an infinite number of people tied to the track a finite amount is all that could ever die.
So you're going to let those infinite people on top stay tied to the track and starve to death slowly‽
I mean, in that case it’s not really a matter of the trolley killing them, per se. The number will tend towards infinity, until it suddenly spikes to real infinity as people starve.
Probably better than an infinite number of people waiting an infinite amount of time for there impending doom and then also an infinite number of people starving to death.
you have to remember ℵ^0 in this case is included in ℵ^1 or at least the numerical value is, which is the only information given.
I guess technically you could value one human soul above the other and technically this is philosophy? So I guess technically you should? but anyway everything that happens on ℵ^0 will also happen on ℵ^1 except more will always happen on ℵ^1 than ℵ^0 so whether there is unintended consequences or not doesn't really matter. it's always safer to pick the countable infinities.
Unless there is something innately good about physically having more people exist no matter there condition. but you would have to ask a philosopher about that one, I'm paid to pull lever's not philosophize.
Bottom.
Killing one person for every real number implies there’s a way to count all real numbers one by one. This is a contradiction, because real numbers are uncountable. By principle of explosion, I’m Superman, which means I can stop the train by my super powers. QED
Either that or the humans are so "infinitely packed" that they're probably already dead squashed into each other.
Now, if you put infinite people in a chamber, and then compress the chamber and then put an infinite amount of compressed chambers inside a chamber.... Will we have Real People?
Bottom has infinite density and will collapse into a black hole killing everyone, and destroying the tram and lever.
Ah, so now Schwarzschild is driving the trolley!
Or maybe he's coming to stop the trolley!
Or maybe Feynman is coming, to renormalize the infinities!
I really don't know anymore! Aleph nought, Aleph omega...
go away, come again some other... perhaps infinite... day.
The second one. It'll be a bit rough, but overall should be a smoother ride for the occupants.
I ignore the question and go to the IT and maintenance teams to put a series of blocks, physical and communication-system-based, between the maths and philosophy departments. Attempts to breach containment will be met with deadly force.
Math is the philosophy department in that math is an extension of logic, which is in turn an extension of philosophy. You'd have a better chance of divorcing math from applied math (engineering/physics) than separating math from philosophy.
The top one, because time is still a factor.
Sure, infinite people will die either way, but that is only after infinite time.
Yeah, but in the bottom one, the people are packed infinitely dense, which will probably cause the train to derail, saving infinitely more people.
Is there a way to take both routes?
Hit the hand brake and drift that sucker.
You dont have to since the set of all positive integers belongs to the set of all real numbers, you actually hit both tracks by just taking the lower track.
The first one, because people will die at a slower rate.
The second one, because the density will cause the trolley to slow down sooner, versus the first one where it will be able to pick up speed again between each person. Also, more time to save people down the rail with my handy rope cutting knife.
Considering that there's a small but non zero chance of surviving getting ran over by a train some of them are gonna survive this and since there are infinite people that will result in infinite train-proof people spawning machine
In the top case has it been arbitrarily decided to include space in between the would-be victims? Or is the top a like number line comparison to the bottom? Because if thats the case it becomes relevant if there is one body for every real number unit of distance. (One body at 0.1 meter, and at 0.01 meter, at 0.001, etc)
If so then there's an infinite amount of victims on the first planck length of the bottom track. An infinite number of victims would contain every possible victim. Every single possible person on the first plank length. So on the next planck length would be every possible person again.
Which would mean that the bottom track is actually choosing a universe of perpetual endless suffering and death for every single possible person. The top track would eventually cause infinite suffering but it would take infinite time to get there. The bottom track starts at infinite suffering and extends infinitely in this manner. Every possible version of every possible person dying, forever.
you know, I'm not sure you can have an uncountably infinite number of people. so whatever that abomination is I'll send the trolley down its way. it's probably an SCP.
Good to know there are roughly 6 real numbers for every integer
I mean, the bottom. The trolley simply would stop, get gunked up by all the guts and the sheer amount of bodies so close together. Checkmate tolley.
How do we know it's an accurate illustration? They might have jacked up the trolley with monster truck wheels or something.
The illustration can't be accurate - you can't picture an infinite number of people between each pair of people, but the description is clear. The trolly can't progress because it can't get from the first person to the second due to the infinite people between them, and the infinite people between each of those between them, etc.
Like in the second infinity you can't count to one, you can't count from 0 to 1*10^-1000
Doesn't matter, there are not enough people to try this anyway
I thought that the correct answer to these was making a loop on the right, merging the lines.
Unfortunately it's hard to join the tag end of one infinity to the tag end of another infinity to allow traversing both completely
I don't really think it's even sensible to talk about the tag end of an infinity. The bitten/bitter end is at 1, the tag end at infinity in this mental model. I feel that is the correct way to use rope terms for imagined embodied infinities as the small end is clearly bitten to (tied to) zero while the other end is free
Imagine being the first one being killed on any of these tracks.
The probability of that is...?
Mathematicians tell me, please, because my mind is breaking.
It's 0. I mean someone has to be the first, but betting on any particular person to be the first will necessarily be a losing bet.
I think on the bottom you have to be the zeroth, but typically the first person tied to the track would be the first, so if the first is at 1 they're safe since there's an infinity (a large infinity even) before them and there's only one tram that can hit one person at a time
It'll take infinite time just to start hitting
I masturbate until I forget about the decision I have to make and then put off cleaning my apartment until I finally just run out, randomly pull the lever, and never think of the consequences again.
Of course by that point everyone has already starved to death which is the worst possible outcome.
Getting killed by a train is apparently just an inevitability in this universe. Either choice is just the grand conductors plan.
like the infinite monkeys with typewritters, universal limits to the rescue. Trolley's are slow. Each bump makes them slower. Some of the people in the discrete line will have long lives until an excruciatingly painful death from dehydration.
Hold the lever halfway so the trolley picks both rails at the same time, to ensure highest possible kill comboq
That's effectively just the bottom track, where an uncountable number of people (literally) will die as soon as the train reaches position (0.
Practically no one dies on either path, since a tram is a real thing it can't traverse infinities of people (which notably have among their mandatory elements mass and volume) very well. It would hardly get far. Its automatic braking would stop it in any case.
Whatever happens infinities of people still remain which exceeds the carrying capacity of our observable universe
Like everything else in this holographic universe we live in, I’d just close my eyes and believe the bodies I’m trampling are imaginary.
Okay, so what’s the point of “proving” that there some “infinities” are “bigger” than others? What’s the practical application here? Because an infinite hotel with an infinite number of guests is physically impossible, so I don’t see the point.
A practical application is for example in probability theory (or anywhere that deals with measures) such as this question:
If we generate a random real number from 0 to 1, what is the probability that it is rational?
Because we know that the continuum is so much larger in a sense than the set of rationals, we can answer this confidently and say the probability is zero, even though it is theoretically possible for us to get a rational number.
Statistics deals with similar scenarios quite frequently, and without it we wouldn't have the modern scientific method.
Practical application in math tends to be like three degrees of separation and half a century removed from the math at play. In this case, all of modern mathematics is based on set theory, so it's more that this stuff allows us to do other, more practically useful math while knowing what we're talking about.
I've never been a fan of just saying "some infinities are bigger than others," to be honest. Way too easy to misunderstand and it's also kind of meaningless by itself.
The real numbers also includes the integers.
The practical consequence of this example is that the integers die regardless of what you choose.
However infinitely many people will survive if you choose the first option.
And yet there can never, and will never, be a situation where an infinite number of people are tied to a railroad track. So this thought experiment is meaningless.
It's more about set theory than the actual numbers.
Let's say you have 100 people with everyone tied up across both tracks. Heads on one track and legs on the other. Let's assume they die if the train touches any part of them, but you still need to choose between running over heads or legs.
The best choice is then legs, because there's a probability of some of them being handicapped and not having legs.
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