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[–] 108 points 1 year ago* (19 children)

In the top one you will never actually kill an infinite number of people, just approach it linearly. The bottom one will kill an infinite amount of people in finite time.

Edit: assuming constant speed of the train.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Limits still are not intuitive to me. Whats the distinction here?

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago

    If people on the top rail are equally spaced at a distance d from each other, then you'd need to go a distance nd to kill the nth person. For any number n, nd is just a number, so it'll never be infinity. Meanwhile the number of real numbers between 0 and 1 is infinite (for example you have 0.1, 0.01, 0.001, etc), so running a distance d will kill an infinite number of people. Think of it like this: The people on the top are blocks, so walking a finite distance you only step on a finite number of blocks. Meanwhile the people on the bottom are infinitely thin sheets. To even have a thickness you need an infinite number of them.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Different slopes.

    On top you kill one person per whole number increment. 0 -> 1 kills one person

    On bottom you kill infinity people per whole number increment. 0 -> 1 kills infinity people

    You can basically think of it like the entirety of the top rail happens for each step of the bottom rail.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    For every integer, there are an infinite number of real numbers until the next integer. So you can't make a 1:1 correspondence. They're both infinite, but this shows that the reals are more infinite. (and yeah, as other people mentioned, it's the 1:1 correspondence, countability, that matters more than the infinite quantity of the real numbers)

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There are infinitely many rational numbers between any two integers (or any two rationals), yet the rationals are still countable, so this reasoning doesn't hold.

    The only simple intuition for the uncountability of the reals I know of is Cantor's diagonal argument.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    There are an infinite amount of real numbers between 0 and 1. On the top track, when you reach 1, you would only kill 1 person. But on the bottom track you would’ve already killed infinite people by the time you reached 1. And you would continue to kill infinite people every time you reached a new whole number.

    On the top track. You would tend towards infinity, meaning the train would never actually kill infinite people; There would always be more people to kill, and the train would always be moving forwards. Those two constants are what make it tend towards infinity, but the train can never actually reach infinity as there is no end to the tracks.

    But on the bottom track. The train can reach infinity multiple times, and will do so every time it reaches a whole number. Basically, by the time you’ve reached 1, the bottom track has already killed more people than the top track ever will.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Great explanation, I'd just like to add to this bit because I think it's fun and important

    And you would continue to kill infinite people every time you reached a new whole number.

    Or any new number at all. Between 0 and 0.0...01 there are already infinite people. And between 0.001 and 0.002.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    That's still not doing it justice. If there were one person for every rational number there would be infinitely many in any finite interval (but still actually no more than the top track, go figure) but the real numbers are a whole other kind of infinite!

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    What I still don't understand is where time comes into play. Is it defined somewhere? Wouldn’t everything still happen instantly even if there are infinite steps inbetween?

    I guess it could be implied by it being a trolley on a track, but then the whole mixing of reality and infinity would also kind of fall apart.

    Is every person tied to the track by default? If so, wouldn't it be more humane to just kill them?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    There aren't infinite trams. There's one tram that has to step over (roll through) one person at a time. Good luck to it making any progress, it will never get to the person numbered 1

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    and will do so every time it reaches a whole number

    Worse. It will kill an infinity every time it will move any distance no matter how small.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Use the fact that a set of people corresponding to the real numbers are laying in a single line to prove that the real numbers are countable, thus throwing the mathematics community into chaos, and using this as a distraction to sabotage the trolley and save everybody.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I pull the lever, if the cart goes over the real numbers it will instantly kill an infinite amount of people and continue killing an infinite amount of people for every moment for the rest of existence.

    If I pull the lever a finite amount of people will die instantly and slowly over time tending twords infinity but due to the linear nature of movement it would never actually reach Infinity even if there are an infinite number of people tied to the track a finite amount is all that could ever die.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    So you're going to let those infinite people on top stay tied to the track and starve to death slowly‽

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I mean, in that case it’s not really a matter of the trolley killing them, per se. The number will tend towards infinity, until it suddenly spikes to real infinity as people starve.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Probably better than an infinite number of people waiting an infinite amount of time for there impending doom and then also an infinite number of people starving to death.

    you have to remember ℵ^0 in this case is included in ℵ^1 or at least the numerical value is, which is the only information given.

    I guess technically you could value one human soul above the other and technically this is philosophy? So I guess technically you should? but anyway everything that happens on ℵ^0 will also happen on ℵ^1 except more will always happen on ℵ^1 than ℵ^0 so whether there is unintended consequences or not doesn't really matter. it's always safer to pick the countable infinities.

    Unless there is something innately good about physically having more people exist no matter there condition. but you would have to ask a philosopher about that one, I'm paid to pull lever's not philosophize.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago

    First, I start moving people to hotel rooms...

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Bottom.

    Killing one person for every real number implies there’s a way to count all real numbers one by one. This is a contradiction, because real numbers are uncountable. By principle of explosion, I’m Superman, which means I can stop the train by my super powers. QED

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Either that or the humans are so "infinitely packed" that they're probably already dead squashed into each other.

    Now, if you put infinite people in a chamber, and then compress the chamber and then put an infinite amount of compressed chambers inside a chamber.... Will we have Real People?

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Bottom has infinite density and will collapse into a black hole killing everyone, and destroying the tram and lever.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Ah, so now Schwarzschild is driving the trolley!
    Or maybe he's coming to stop the trolley!
    Or maybe Feynman is coming, to renormalize the infinities!
    I really don't know anymore! Aleph nought, Aleph omega...
    go away, come again some other... perhaps infinite... day.

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  • [+] 19 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    The second one. It'll be a bit rough, but overall should be a smoother ride for the occupants.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I ignore the question and go to the IT and maintenance teams to put a series of blocks, physical and communication-system-based, between the maths and philosophy departments. Attempts to breach containment will be met with deadly force.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Math is the philosophy department in that math is an extension of logic, which is in turn an extension of philosophy. You'd have a better chance of divorcing math from applied math (engineering/physics) than separating math from philosophy.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The top one, because time is still a factor.

    Sure, infinite people will die either way, but that is only after infinite time.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Is there a way to take both routes?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Hit the hand brake and drift that sucker.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    The first one, because people will die at a slower rate.

    The second one, because the density will cause the trolley to slow down sooner, versus the first one where it will be able to pick up speed again between each person. Also, more time to save people down the rail with my handy rope cutting knife.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Considering that there's a small but non zero chance of surviving getting ran over by a train some of them are gonna survive this and since there are infinite people that will result in infinite train-proof people spawning machine

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago*

    In the top case has it been arbitrarily decided to include space in between the would-be victims? Or is the top a like number line comparison to the bottom? Because if thats the case it becomes relevant if there is one body for every real number unit of distance. (One body at 0.1 meter, and at 0.01 meter, at 0.001, etc)

    If so then there's an infinite amount of victims on the first planck length of the bottom track. An infinite number of victims would contain every possible victim. Every single possible person on the first plank length. So on the next planck length would be every possible person again.

    Which would mean that the bottom track is actually choosing a universe of perpetual endless suffering and death for every single possible person. The top track would eventually cause infinite suffering but it would take infinite time to get there. The bottom track starts at infinite suffering and extends infinitely in this manner. Every possible version of every possible person dying, forever.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    you know, I'm not sure you can have an uncountably infinite number of people. so whatever that abomination is I'll send the trolley down its way. it's probably an SCP.

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  • Bottom. Greater probability that it gets stuck in the corpses.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Good to know there are roughly 6 real numbers for every integer

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean, the bottom. The trolley simply would stop, get gunked up by all the guts and the sheer amount of bodies so close together. Checkmate tolley.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    How do we know it's an accurate illustration? They might have jacked up the trolley with monster truck wheels or something.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    The illustration can't be accurate - you can't picture an infinite number of people between each pair of people, but the description is clear. The trolly can't progress because it can't get from the first person to the second due to the infinite people between them, and the infinite people between each of those between them, etc.

    Like in the second infinity you can't count to one, you can't count from 0 to 1*10^-1000

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Doesn't matter, there are not enough people to try this anyway

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Population expansion is exponential but the tram moves at constant velocity, so by the time it reaches the end of the track of 8bn people there will be an exponentially increasing number of people further down the track.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*
    1. I lay some extra track so the train runs over the perverts that come up with these "dilemmas" instead. Problem solved. 👍
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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I thought that the correct answer to these was making a loop on the right, merging the lines.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Unfortunately it's hard to join the tag end of one infinity to the tag end of another infinity to allow traversing both completely

    I don't really think it's even sensible to talk about the tag end of an infinity. The bitten/bitter end is at 1, the tag end at infinity in this mental model. I feel that is the correct way to use rope terms for imagined embodied infinities as the small end is clearly bitten to (tied to) zero while the other end is free

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Imagine being the first one being killed on any of these tracks.

    The probability of that is...?

    Mathematicians tell me, please, because my mind is breaking.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's 0. I mean someone has to be the first, but betting on any particular person to be the first will necessarily be a losing bet.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I think on the bottom you have to be the zeroth, but typically the first person tied to the track would be the first, so if the first is at 1 they're safe since there's an infinity (a large infinity even) before them and there's only one tram that can hit one person at a time

    It'll take infinite time just to start hitting

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I masturbate until I forget about the decision I have to make and then put off cleaning my apartment until I finally just run out, randomly pull the lever, and never think of the consequences again.

    Of course by that point everyone has already starved to death which is the worst possible outcome.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Getting killed by a train is apparently just an inevitability in this universe. Either choice is just the grand conductors plan.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    This hypothetical post is a thought crime!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    like the infinite monkeys with typewritters, universal limits to the rescue. Trolley's are slow. Each bump makes them slower. Some of the people in the discrete line will have long lives until an excruciatingly painful death from dehydration.

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    [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Hold the lever halfway so the trolley picks both rails at the same time, to ensure highest possible kill comboq

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's effectively just the bottom track, where an uncountable number of people (literally) will die as soon as the train reaches position (0.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Practically no one dies on either path, since a tram is a real thing it can't traverse infinities of people (which notably have among their mandatory elements mass and volume) very well. It would hardly get far. Its automatic braking would stop it in any case.

    Whatever happens infinities of people still remain which exceeds the carrying capacity of our observable universe

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Bottom. Train will stall/derail faster.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Like everything else in this holographic universe we live in, I’d just close my eyes and believe the bodies I’m trampling are imaginary.

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  • either way infinite people die, just not getting involved

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    What about a time loop where only one person dies, but infinite times?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Okay, so what’s the point of “proving” that there some “infinities” are “bigger” than others? What’s the practical application here? Because an infinite hotel with an infinite number of guests is physically impossible, so I don’t see the point.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    A practical application is for example in probability theory (or anywhere that deals with measures) such as this question:

    If we generate a random real number from 0 to 1, what is the probability that it is rational?

    Because we know that the continuum is so much larger in a sense than the set of rationals, we can answer this confidently and say the probability is zero, even though it is theoretically possible for us to get a rational number.

    Statistics deals with similar scenarios quite frequently, and without it we wouldn't have the modern scientific method.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Practical application in math tends to be like three degrees of separation and half a century removed from the math at play. In this case, all of modern mathematics is based on set theory, so it's more that this stuff allows us to do other, more practically useful math while knowing what we're talking about.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    The real numbers also includes the integers.

    The practical consequence of this example is that the integers die regardless of what you choose.

    However infinitely many people will survive if you choose the first option.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    And yet there can never, and will never, be a situation where an infinite number of people are tied to a railroad track. So this thought experiment is meaningless.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    It's more about set theory than the actual numbers.

    Let's say you have 100 people with everyone tied up across both tracks. Heads on one track and legs on the other. Let's assume they die if the train touches any part of them, but you still need to choose between running over heads or legs.

    The best choice is then legs, because there's a probability of some of them being handicapped and not having legs.

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