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[–] 268 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I really hope valve can get VAC into a good space so it can be an example of doing anti-cheat well without having to be a rootkit. Looks like we're heading towards that point. Hopefully this change will last

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    John Macdonald is cooking the best fucking server-sided anticheat with all that compute power in Bellevue. Lets see him become a master chef!

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    I wonder if that is actually their long-term goal. I feel like anti-cheats are like the last obstacle for Linux gaming where some highly popular games are straight-up unplayable on Linux; with how much stake Valve has in the success of Linux gaming (Steam Deck duh) maybe they want to make it so that eventually all games with anti-cheats can run on Linux

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    I mean, to me, this is amazingly obviously the goal.

    Games run better ~5% fps better now on Linux (when using a distro configured for gaming) than they do on Windows.

    As you say, last technical obstacle is kernel AC rootkits.

    Solve that, anyone still gaming on Windows is a MSFT fanboy, afraid of change, whatever.

    But they have very little actual solid reason to remain on Windows.

    Start getting people outta Windows for home PCs, it becomes basically just a shitty corpo OS.

    Rather, not OS... but ecosystem.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'd actually imagine for non-Microsoft properties, they would have all the more reason to run away from Windows to linux as soon as the anticheat issue is resolved.

    I'd imagine they would come to the same conclusion that Gaben had with Win8: Relying on Microsoft "never restricting" the installation of software outside of the windows/Xbox store in the future is a huge gamble. Better to avoid the risk entirely.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Right I used to think Android would be smart enough to maintain the illusion of an open platform alternative to Apple that doesn't restrict users as heavily, but even Android is moving towards a locked down platform that doesn't let users sideload apps or install alternative OS, if this succeeds then I'm quite sure Microsoft will follow suit the greedy fucks that they are. We need more alternative phone companies and easier ways to make cross platform apps that can run on non Apple and Android phones easily

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  • [–] 207 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    I've often thought that the cheaters should be simply shadow banned, and only match with other cheaters. Let them play against the other cheaters and see how well they do.

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  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I always thought there should be an "unlimited class" in the olympics where you can take anything you want. I want to see wildly drugged up athletes competing with each other.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "And now the athletes are at the starting line for the hundred meter ketamine stagger. . . They're waiting for the starters' gun. . . Some of them have got confused and wandered off. . ."

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    According to D'Souza, he created the Games because he believes that athletes are entitled to do what they wish with their own bodies

    If that's been agreed upon as the ruleset for their competitions, I agree

    and that the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is corrupt and not paying them enough.

    Also agree, it's the individual countries that usually pay their athletes to athlete and uh... Yeah, they get sponsors for a reason, don't they. I know a few people who've competed at several olympic games and just being top 10 or something in the world in your sport doesn't exactly get you swimming in money.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    I always thought professional sports games don't have enough good ol' gladiatorial bloodshed. If youre getting paid tens of millions per year for sports you damn well better be doing more than moving an object around.

    Look, all im saying is any sports game can be made more watchable by giving players a side-armed melee wepon and allowed one swing per play iteration with no redcards. Put back in some selective pressure to turn those middle aged pudgy players and coaches into real athletes and tacticians.

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  • [–] 60 points 1 year ago

    Cheaters also are part of why I like coop games so much more. Join a random game with a cheater, doesn't matter too much and you can leave. Play with a group of friends and that also goes a long way to eliminating them.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    I think Valve should have only recorded which players were cheating for a few weeks, then ban them all at once. Would avoid them disabling cheats now they know and would also make it more difficult to figure out what exactly is VAC detecting.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'd love to play matches with aimbots.

    I'm not good at games. Don't care enough to git gud. Certainly wouldn't ruin anyone's experience by cheating. But it'd be fun to see what the game is like with everyone having perfect aim.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Cheaters aren't only aimbots. In fact, most of the time they're not even using aimbot because that's one of the easiest one to tell that someone is cheating. Most of the time they can just see everyone through walls. But if it's cheater vs cheater and they don't care about being caught then it's not fun or interesting because you just use aim + speed + noclip (I assume that's possible) and just kill everyone the second the round starts.

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  • [–] 181 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And they did it without installing root kits on our computers.

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  • [–] 77 points 1 year ago

    OMG thank God, finally VAC is working??? The cheating was getting so bad. I kick and report people as much as I can but it felt like it never did anything.

    Knowing this, I am not as upset about getting caught in the crossfire the other day. VAC flagged my game session after like 2 seconds and I had to reinstall completely.

    I should go read some of these cheater forums and maybe talk a little shit. Little fuckers.

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  • [–] 150 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Ha! Get fucked, losers. Cheaters ruin the fun for everyone, so I hope every last one gets permabanned.

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  • [+] -53 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    You cannot permaban a cheater for the saame reason you shouldn't have death penalty, people need to be able to challenge the decision which should trigger a process

    As a piece of software, I highly doubt there isn't a single bug in VAC that would cause a false-positive

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  • [–] 49 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is certainly one of the comparisons of all time

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Consequence of sentencing the wrong person to death: You killed an innocent life in an irreversible action.

    Consequence of permabanning a player from an online game: The player can no longer play the game. The action is also reversible since "permaban" just means to say "we're never unbanning you unless something extraordinary were to happen".

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  • [–] 49 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Bro touch grass. Seriously likening a VAC ban with the death penalty?! You can just email someone if you got banned; if you wrongfully died from the death penalty you can't just phone the judge and ask him to recheck lmao

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Meh, no process is perfect and sensitivity and specificity are often enemies. Basically, in a lot of cases the more sensitive you make a test to detect something, the more likely it is to accidentally catch false positives.

    Sounds like they've vastly improved it's ability to detect, hopefully that didn't come with false detections for people running unusual hardware or software combinations.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    If, to you, not being able to play one game in the sea of many many many games is akin to death, maybe you need to see someone about addiction.

    If you cheat in a game, you've burned your bridge. It's like taking a piss in the cereal isle of Kmart, you probably won't be welcome in that Kmart any more. Or hey, maybe you'll end up like an acquaintance I knew who was banned from a Kmart, maybe you'll be hired on as staff without them checking the binder of banned people. I think I've lost the plot of this analogy.

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  • [–] 61 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    This explains why I get killed so much… right? Right?

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  • [–] 56 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I did finally win a match in CS2 after a long loss streak.. it was definitely because everyone else was always cheating... not because I'm shit...

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  • [–] 55 points 1 year ago (19 children)

    I was blissfully unaware, probably because I'm not cheating scum.

    Couldn't have happened to a better community of people.

    Fuck cheaters.

    IMO, cheating is just taking away all the fun of the game. The cheater didn't have to get gud to be able to win, and the victim is denied any recourse or any fun in playing the game. Bluntly, I have absolutely no sympathy at all for these kinds of people. If you suck at the game and need to use cheats to win, maybe don't fucking play it competitively?

    There's a reason I've kept my counterstrike antics to private games among friends and local matches against bots. I have no interest in larder boards. I just want to have fun. Dying over and over before you can even do any damage, isn't fun.

    If you're a cheater, get wrecked.

    Bravo valve. Bravo.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I never cheat in multiplayer. But if a single-player game has a "hacking" minigame, I'm absolutely loading up Ghidra & GDB and figuring out how to actually hack around it. Pretty much always harder than just playing the minigame, but more fun.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    oh god. When I played System Shock 2 for the first time, I couldn't figure out how the hacking puzzles worked. I look up guides and asked for advice. Got told to gitgud by someone who didn't play the game, then got told they were pure rng guided by the hacking stat. I saved scummed that shit. Don't present me with something that looks like a puzzle, but isn't.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Depending on who it is, and it’s obviously not even close to the vast majority of cheaters I’d imagine, there are people who cheat in tournaments and the like where they can win serious money, or people cheat so they can look good in front of viewers who pay them money. At that point there is both a practical reason for why they do it and also an excellent reason to get them to fuck all the way off because they’re not just cheating but are also theives.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I’ve worked in esports for a bit and there’s definitely cheats out there that pros use. When utilised well you won’t even notice when directly spectating or when the player is streaming. They’re designed to help extremely good players just that little bit extra needed to become a top-tier player.

    Those “pro-grade” cheats don’t come cheap though. I’ve heard figures in the 400-600/month range multiple times. These would also work on the special tournament clients used by professional players.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I used to cheat in GunZ online, but to be fair, I was like 11, the game wasn't competitive, and leveling up for cooler gear and to unlock new maps was HARD work.

    Eventually I'd git semi gud and stopped bothering with the cheats. But it was fun as hell flying through the map with no clip, as a ball of fire that killed everything except other cheaters with godmode lmao

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    leveling up for cooler gear and to unlock new maps was HARD work.

    There’s something to be said for skipping unreasonable grind. It’s not okay to mess with other players experience, but that other part I do get.

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  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Woohoo to being responsible for others not having any fun playing a game!

    Woo! Woooooo.

    What?

    I don't know why you would admit this.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's what I don't get cheating is rampant in online games but why? What fun is it to cheat I would think it takes the fin out of the game.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    and the victim is denied any recourse or any fun in playing the game

    That is how they get enjoyment from the game, denying other players.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Those are the same type of people that cause damage in the economy by scamming others, leading to preventable deaths.

    Being caught cheating in a game, should leave you unemployable, with no welfare, and businesses should refuse to serve you.

    Just make a government black list.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Finally, VAC is a good anticheat, and that works without running deep into the kernel.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Finally, VAC is a good anticheat, and that works without running deep into the kernel

    So this will solve the linux client not working because of crappy kernel level anti-cheat software?

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago

    Hell fucking yeah.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    At this point I nearly want to "donate" to Valve...

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    That's what we call having hundred of untouched games in the steam library. Right?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Can I write them off on my taxes if I never play them?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    According to quick google, he only has 4 ships in his fleet (with fifth being built right now), and 5 ships is a very small amount for any respectable admiral.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Only 4 ships in his fleet

    "Only" 4 megayachts. Its really wierd to me that gaben gets a pass on excessive resource consumption because he's"one of the good ones". People should not be dumping millions of dollars into private toys period. And if they do, one is certainly enough. Was a whole private superyacht not enough to satisfy a man? If not, how is 4 or 5 going to? Does he provide public housing to the poor in those things? Is he planning to invite all the steam gamers and make a floating independent country? Why are so many people like this? Where does the neverending hunger for more come from?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Well, you know how you get a pack of very good cookies, and think you only going to eat like two or three, but somehow you eat the whole pack anyway? Well, it's like that but with mega yachts. A pack of good cookies is bigger part of my overall budget than a good yacht is a part of Gaben's this month's income. Why wouldn't he get five. And besides, not all of his yachts are super yachts apparently, so it's all good and chill and cool.
    Yeah, apparently we do give him a pass because steam is less shitty than it could be. Well, and also because he's not doing anything terrible that we know of, and in this economy I would take non pedo billionaire over all the rest.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Jesus Christ... Why are people like this?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    .... Because when it comes to billionaires, gaben is the least of our concern?

    Don't get me wrong, billionaires are always bad, but not all billionaires are hated.

    You won't see Bezos doing anything that helps people, not unless it will line his pockets. Valve doesn't charge us for using vac, they're unlikely to sell a lot of new copies of CS2 by making it harder to cheat in the game. They have nearly zero financial reasons to bother with any of this. They did it anyways.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Theyre more likely to keep the skin economy alive by making people enjoy the game. It's not like they have no incentive.

    But yea I very much agree gabe is not the problem. If every billionaire acted like gabe the world would probably be a whole lot better, even if they'd still waste a lot of ressources. Because at least he hasn't sold his basic human decency for more money, he just spends his insane amounts of money on excessive luxury. And valve actually takes risks on new products, and is content with their store shitting money instead of trying to make it shit money faster like every publically traded company.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I agree he's better than most. But I'm still going to ask why anyone feels the need to own and maintain a fleet of yachts.

    It's fucking capitalist brain rot. I will never trust anyone who chooses to live that way.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Ig buying a game will give Valve + the dev/publisher Money (cause Valve Takes 30%)

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yeah. Go buy hollow Knight, or schedule 1, or anything from an indie studio. Support both good devs and studios, and valve. And you even get a fun game to go with your support. Honestly, everyone wins.

    .... Does anyone still wonder why I boycotted all other gaming platforms other than steam?

    You think you're going to get anti-cheat this good from the likes of epic? Ha.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    The problem is the arms race escalates forever - cheat developers will just regroup, analyse what the new VAC is doing, and start finding new exploits.

    Not saying Valve should just give up; quite the opposite. The war never ends.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    For me the anticheat can win. It's just less fighting on the grounds where the cheaters have advantage (their hardware they have full control of), and on the grounds where they can't control instead, by monitoring behaviour. chess.com is a winning example, no anti cheat software required, yet they can catch cheaters who use a different hardware for assistance (play on PC and lookup moves on phone).

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  • [+] -39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    That’s not the problem. The problem is people hacking software.

    If we are talking about the software. The problem is the hacking of that software. I replied to a comment about the software.

    The arms race is not the problem. Anti-cheat didn’t come first. The hacking of software did.

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  • [–] 80 points 1 year ago

    That’s not the problem. Hacking software rules. The problem is griefing shitheads who ruin games for other people.

    I regularly hack single player games to cheat especially after I have a “legit” run and want to try playing op or if it’s just a game I’m not super invested in the mechanics of and want to power through the story. Who gives a shit if I do this? 20-30 years ago this was a cheat code or a game genie thing. Now it’s “bad”, which I get if it’s multiplayer and I’m ruining balance (unless literally the only multiplayer aspect is a meaningless leaderboard), or it’s still there but it’s monetized and that’s just scumbag shit

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why do you hate property rights?

    I'm not defending cheating in online games or interfering with Valve's service, but if you think the solution to stopping them is attacking "software hacking" in general as a concept, that juice ain't worth the squeeze. "Software hacking," fundamentally, is nothing more than modifying the operation of your computer, your property that you own. It's no different than buying a physical paper book and then writing notes in the margin.

    If you're proposing disallowing people from doing that, you're attacking the concept of property rights itself.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That would be absurd for me to suggest. I was not claiming that all “hacking” no matter how you define the word, as bad.

    I was just stating the source of the problem here. Everyone is really sensitive about the fact.

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