Excuse me while I go donate even more money to PieFed

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[–] 214 points 1 year ago (21 children)

PieFed dev here.

The screenshotted post is very misleading. As you'd expect from a hexbearian. It is not a baked-in ban.

Hexbear is mentioned in the PieFed source code, as an initial default value for the defederation list. That list is quite long and includes various instances that have been a source of trolls, CSAM and spam in the past (mostly Mastodon instances). As part of the normal setup process it is assumed that instance admins will review that list and alter it as they see fit. They can change it any time by going to instance.tld/admin/federation.

Do not take anything a hexbearian says at face value.

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  • [–] 57 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    That's exactly what this is, an initial defed list. Even the way they present this is disingenous as fuck, calling it a "one way federation, silencing our voices" or some other weird phrasing, making it sound like some underhanded/hidden hardcoded piece just for them, when it's just a boring-ass defederation with one instance among many others. How difficult is it to say "piefed software defederates hexbear by default"? Everyone knows what that fucking means!

    I honestly don't understand why everything has to be taken so goddamn uncharitably by the regulars on that instance. It blows my mind how they manage to always act in bad faith. Always.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I honestly don't understand why everything has to be taken so goddamn uncharitably by the regulars on that instance. It blows my mind how they manage to always act in bad faith. Always.

    It's pretty straightforward, imo, they built a feedback loop into their instance culture that encouraged social dopamine junkies to participate in toxic behaviors, valuing things like "dunking", othering, and dehumanizing the out group (non-hexies) over things like factuality, good faith, and not being dicks.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this also wouldn't mean "one way federation" right? There would just be no synching at all.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I assume if you are on instance A and post something on instance B, your instance doesn't federate with hexbear but instance B does, then you will not see the comments from the hexbear user through your instance? Not certain if that is how it works or not though.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Thank you for your good work, whats the funding status been like for you lately?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The per-user donations for PieFed are half that of Lemmy (and the number of users are 5% of Lemmy). More is always welcome.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's not at all what the above comment says.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's crazy how that happened. Just...fully read something different.

    Sometimes I think even with telepathy people would find a way to miscommunicate.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Not sure what they said or how off topic it was but I would like to point out that Connect has this rare bug where posting a comment in one thread, sometimes ends up posting to a totally different and random thread on a totally different and random post.

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    [–] 19 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Why bother with the 1 way federation, though?

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    So your users can go on their instance, I guess? That's not a great reason. Cut them off or don't.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Agreed, there is no good reason for a one way federation with a trash instance.

    Even if the idea is that they have communities that aren't horrible, the taint is strong enough that the same communities should just be promoted on non/less shitty instances.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think it’s the other way around, actually. It sounds like hex users are actually receiving posts from outside but it’s their own content that is being blocked

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  • [+] -5 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago

    That's also how Lemmy defederation and user blocking works FYI so it's not unique to PieFed

    That's also exactly how dessalines built Lemmy's "block" system for both users and instance blocks

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I remember way back when world was still federated with most of the triad. Hexbear honestly has no one but themselves to blame. With nothing of value to offer. But cycles of revenge and retribution are hardly helpful.

    They got their asses rightfully kicked to the curb for brigading. I have zero sympathy for them in this situation. But this is still disappointing behavior on the part of @rimu@piefed.social and makes me a bit more reluctant to recommended piefed to others etc. Even though .world outright blocks hex anyways. I hope it gets addressed sooner rather than later. Because I "REALLY" like the experience so far on piefed. And would like to see it prosper. Even though this will be a bit of a blemish on the project. That's nothing compared to Lemmy and its devs.

    Have a dialogue front and center to opt in to blocking the whole triad when setting up the software. Nothing wrong with that at all. But yeah, please don't stirr up the dumbass's nest. They're better off being irrelevant and largely ignored. Even if it's funny ironically for this to happen to them. It's just more pointless drama.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Example of two Piefed instances that currently federate hexbear:

    List of Piefed instances that currently defederate hexbear:

    https://piefed.fediverse.observer/list

    As you can see, instances defederating hexbear are instances managed by teams which were going to do so anyway, as they already did on Lemmy.

    Instances who want to federate know how to do so, there are three examples.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago

    It's just a default block on grad and hex when creating a new instance which can be toggled off. Keep coming crying with your ALTs Tankies no one wants to deal with your incessant propaganda.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Fediverse wide

    Do they think they have influence beyond the ML instances?

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (23 children)

    Not sure I dig baking it into the code, that starts walking into the broken by design space. Feasibly the tankies developing Lemmy could do the same to any instance not painted the right shade of red.

    I might propose instead a step in setup, or on demand, to select major instances to allow/deny federation from with a description of them. Impossible to keep a list of every new instance up to date, but catching the major hubs shouldn't be impossible.

    Edit: For all those who replied along the lines of it being optional not a hard coded block, point noted. I should expect no less misleading a post from a pool of people prone to leaving out vital facts.

    My understanding as it being an opt-out default defederation is still a bit grating since I tend to think of software as a neutral tool rather than promoting specific ideals, but it's far better than a fixed in state and does serve some purpose to shield new users from some of the most egregiously bad actors.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Agreed on the risk of having baked-in bans, though alternatively, maybe using the already available tool, per-instance defederation would be better. Or also as Lemmy allows, users defederating from instances they'd rather avoid.

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  • [–] [S] 19 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

    Or also as Lemmy allows, users defederating from instances they'd rather avoid.

    Lemmy does not do this, the devs implemented an incredibly broken block system that is nothing more than mute. Suspected to be done this way intentionally.

    On an instance level, it does not block an instances' users at all

    On a per-user level, blocked users can still fully interact with your comments and posts, you just can't see it. What's more damning is that ActivityPubs spec'd block does do a proper block, but dessalines chose to roll their own broken system.

    In both cases, it's akin to this "one-way" federation they bring up.

    The only true way to block an instance, is for an instance admin to fully defederate.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Separating the communities from the users makes sense in some contexts, like blocking all of the communities of a NSFW type instance without blocking all their users. But there should be a additional option for users to block all the users of an instance without needing to do each one individually.

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    While there are certainly some cons, block should mean block. If user A blocks user B, they should not be able to see each other, period

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  • [+] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    post misinformation or spam or snake oil on a public forum and then prevent that public from seeing anything in the comments that might contradict you

    That's what instance admins and comm mods are for

    Anything less than full blocking leaves a much bigger room for harassment.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If a bad faith user has blocked people who might be critical of their misinformation or poor behaviour, there'd be no-one to alert the moderators.

    Someone tested the consequences of this type of blocking on Reddit.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Piefed blocking should prevent the blocked person from replying to the blocker.

    I tried it a while ago, it was functional on the same instance, I don't remember between Piefed instance or between Piefed and Lemmy

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    The cons are pretty bad imo. It's common on Reddit now for people to get into an argument, reply and then immediately block to prevent a response and make it look like that person didn't care to respond. If someone is a poweruser and responsible for a meaningful portion of posts and spawned comment threads in a community, they can use the block function to strategically limit the ability of certain other users to participate, since a blocked person can not only not reply to them but also can't reply to anyone else further down a thread. This effect is worse in smaller subs, it's basically soft moderation powers granted just by blocking and writing things that generate engagement. And when this is happening, by its nature it is hard to even tell it's happening.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I might propose instead a step in setup, or on demand, to select major instances to allow/deny federation from

    This is exactly how it works. I started a PieFed instance and made the decision (during setup) to trim the defederation list down to none. Users can block on the account level.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Hello,

    Just to confirm, what did you exactly have to do to trim the defederation list during setup? Did you just use instance.tld/instances or did you do it differently?

    FYI @jet@hackertalks.com

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    If I remember correctly, I was presented with a text box pre-populated with the list of bad guys. I just selected them all with Ctrl-A and hit delete.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I'm on my computer now, so I'll type out some more detail if you're interested. To reiterate, I'm just going off memory and it was two weeks ago so I could very well be making stuff up...

    The pre-filled input box asked for each blocked instance to go on a new line, so:

    lemmy.world  
    lemmy.ml  
    lemmygrad.ml  
    hexbear.net  
    lemmy.zip  
    piefed.social  
    etc...  
    

    I deleted all of the defaults and that was it. I'll put a screenshot of the settings page that's available to admins below:

    Federation options

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Am I missing something? Aside from the "baked in" claim, how is this different from defeds on Lemmy? It's always one way, ie the instance that defeds can't see content from the other instance, but the target instance can still see them.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It is indeed the same, some comments in that thread make it look like some people discovered defederation today

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Ok, that's what I thought. Which is funny because I learned how it works after learning that hex admins (generally) defed mutually to avoid a one way issue, exactly like they're freaking out about here.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Blocking an instance in lemmy, just stops direct communication between the two instances. However it does not stop you from seeing their comments or posts on third instances.

    So for example you would be able to read this comment, even if lemmy.ca would have blocked slrpnk.net, because we are on sh.itjust.works. In Piefed you would not.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Even on communities from another instance, I don't see anything from defederated users.

    *A quick rough search and I found this post (https://lemmy.ca/post/49536847) (apologies for the content, it's just an example). It's absolutely flooded with hex users "contributions", but I see none of that.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago*

    Based.

    The only thing better than this was Nutomic whining that he needs more donations to feed his family (he literally said this) but absolutely refusing to just ask Dessalines to chill the fuck out with the tankie censorship shit.

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  • [–] 43 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    we need a fediverse-wide boycott of hexbear

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (14 children)
  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    less so but yeah they’re pretty toxic

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Idk, just got done reading yet another monologue from Cowbee about how the PRC really is better than the U.S. in every single way — I'd personally weigh .ml as being much more toxic.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    yeah, they’re fucking trash…
    and such propaganda garbage, i’m honestly just going to leave lemmy entirely if this is allowed to continue.
    users get banned for abusive behavior, why not the entire instance?
    the instances both encourage and just about require abuse…. and incredibly evil shit, like there’s a new trend of trying to manipulate the palestinian genocide to attack leftists.
    like reuters, aoc, radiohead….
    hexagon started out on reddit as el chapo trap house, and was banned for repeatedly abusing the site, including brigading other subs….
    so why allow instances who’s main purpose is to deceive or otherwise attack other instances?
    the fediverse will not work if we allow instances dedicated to abusing other instances.
    if they were alt-right chuds, they would’ve been defederated a long time ago… but instead we have government propaganda pretending to be alt-left and that’s allowed?
    and there’s no fucking way real flesh and blood people are really arguing that the PRC is better than the US in every way…

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Then... Get on an instance that defederates the tankie trio? That's the beauty of the fediverse, you get to curate your experience.

    if they were alt-right chuds, they would’ve been defederated a long time ago… but instead we have government propaganda pretending to be alt-left and that’s allowed?

    This isn't reddit, there's no one central authority picking who gets defederated and who doesn't. Chose an instance that aligns with your values

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    no shit, no shit, also no shit….

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    ?

    I assumed you were a new user so I was trying to offer helpful advice. Not sure why you're being passive aggressive and downvoting me, but ok. For somebody complaining about the state of the fediverse you're not doing a great deal to be the change you want to see.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    that’s not passive aggressive, that pretty direct.
    because you’re repeating the same shit and offering extremely bland and broad platitudes, not actually responding to what i’m saying.
    i’m not a new user.
    it doesn’t help to join an instance defederated from the triad because they’re still commenting on and manipulating every post they can.
    it like saying “my neighborhood is on fire” and you respond “just stay inside your own house and don’t look out the window”….
    bruh, i can smell the smoke and my house is flammable….
    i know “this isn’t reddit” and i think you’re a condescending prick for saying that and then pretending like you’re “just trying to be helpful”
    i don’t need everyone to be nice.
    i need people to not be liars and sock puppets for north korea and shit…. and other instances to recognize that and defederate from extremely abusive instances, otherwise they will always be manipulating what you can see.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Nah lemmyml is quite valuable. Mayhaps you thinkest of grad.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Eh...like, don't get me wrong, I'm a rabid progressive...but those guys? The ML Leftists? They scare the shit out of me. Like, they'd go full Red August and be totally fine with it.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Haha, yeah. Trying to find a post from a while ago. A tankie basically straight up said there's nothing wrong with power struggles between ideologies after I said leftists will never ally with tankies because they always fucking kill them afterwards.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    I mean I think that is a bad and unhealthy idea. If piefed.social, world or a particular instance wants to set it up that way then go ahead, sure, but I do think it should be up to the admin using the software to decide which servers this should or shouldn't apply to rather than what sounds like an opt-out scheme. I mean sure go ahead, code how you like, who am I to judge, but I'm only saying it in consideration of best practices.

    If HB runs into the silly issue again that almost lost them their domain (and temporarily switched to chapo.chat), this code will be a maintenance burden just because of the developer's specific grudge.

    I'm saying this as a user happy about the fact that my instance defederated hexbear and lemmygrad, there are cool communities there, but they are an insufferable bunch.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    I believe they further clarified that there are specific default filter sets that can be loaded when a new piefed instance is created, not that they are literally removed in code.

    Here's the comments discussing it:

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    centrist extremists

    can't make that shit up...

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Good luck with that they/them in Russia.

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