In an effort to stem the bleeding from the backlash about their AI usage and their CEO's meltdown, they decide to do the exact opposite and go all in.

...I'm tired, boss.

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[–] 113 points 4 days ago (25 children)

Currently on day four of clearing out my Proton inbox. Moved my files off of Proton Drive, and cancelled my subscription. Next will be changing to a new email alias provider since SimpleLogin is a product of Proton.

Fuck em.

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  • [–] 37 points 4 days ago (11 children)

    I am currently in the middle of moving to Tuta.

    Andy Yen and Proton can get fucked.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (10 children)

    Tuta left a comment on Mastodon a couple of days ago that they are researching using AI to automate repetitive tasks. I'll try and find the comment.

    Edit that didn't take long https://infosec.exchange/@Tutanota@mastodon.social/117518313763499149

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  • [–] 17 points 3 days ago (9 children)

    Isn't.. that a reasonable use of the tool? Freeing up people's time from drone work to do more meaningful stuff?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 days ago

    Yes, but also that's what regular programs are for. If it is a repetitive task that does not require any creative input, a program can achieve it, and a programmer can be paid for it. There are few tasks that can't be automated using logic parameters.

    I do agree with you that that is what AI should be used for, but I'd only support it if the AI was run locally. Commercial AI should not be centralized.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    Handwritten automation is possible with code, all they'd have to do is actually do the work to identify the repetitive tasks and write the code for future edit + reuse. They just want an excuse to get high on AI, to throw away their expertise. To risk the privacy of others to that end.

    That's why I switched to Posteo from Tuta, as they are desperate to be like every corpo scum and use AI. I also left a detailed message as to why I left, it was scathing.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    Yeah, they sold themselves to the Big Tech interests and they don't respect their users (nor their employees) anymore, if they did so in the past to start with. Just as Linus and its 90 billion from IBM (which received them from AI companies and it's part of the AI bubble's hype too)

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  • I noticed Linus's heel maneuver because..Of fucking course it is always the old men who sell out future generations for snake oil and bad corporate schemes. At least we have microkernels to microdose on to isolate the damage that can by a deranged group of open source idiots that soul their soul to corpo beasts.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 child)

    So you feel I should have not said anything?

    Someone leaving Proton because of LLM/AI should be informed Tuta has plans on increasing their usage of LLM/AI.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    Absolutes and sweeping statements are rarely true. I can't think of a fault for using local AI for scientific pursuits, nor using local AI for recreational pursuits.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

    This isn't any of them: this is a production context with real data of real users and the privacy and security of these at stake. This is one of those rare cases where they're true, in fact.

    But even in scientific or recreational contexts, it's still bad by itself. First of all, it deskills you. Second of all, it still sums to the enviromental and energetic effects of AI. Third of all, "AI" is NOT reliable at all, as it's inherently chaotic, stochastic and indeterminist. Fourth of all, "AI" is tainted and blood-stained chain of origin, encompassing the datasets used for training and the methods by which they are acquired, the materials and processes employed to manufacture and maintain the hardware and software involved, as well as the procedures used to categorize and clean the training data (that's underpaid exploitative labor done by people of the Global South). Sixth of all, it perpetuates and amplifies biases by presenting itself as an objective, impartial, and detached entity to be trusted blindly—a dynamic that makes fake news more destructive than ever. Seventh, it is built upon the theft of works by millions of artists (of all kinds—not just painters and illustrators), scientists, philosophers, thinkers, and countless others, all without their consent, proper attribution, or fair compensation, thereby amplifying the phenomenon of enclosure. Eighth, it facilitates license laundering. Ninth, it has inextricable ties to both fascism and authoritarian tankie movements, as well as to war, numerous massacres, unjust imprisonments, and the intelligence and psychological or information warfare operations of governments worldwide.

    Elaboration and sources are here.

    Edit: Forgot to add that the "AI" that everyone talks about is not the actual AI that scientists use. They don't use ChatGPT, StableDiffusion or anything like that to do research. They use purpose-specific machine learning models, created by them for their particular context and use case.

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  • [–] [S] 16 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    I'm in the process of doing the same thing. I've canceled but I'm half way through a two year plan. So I have some time to move to a different location. I hooked a lot of things to this email address.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Buying your own domain and then just pointing your mail records at a new host is the best way to handle email migrations. Once you get a new host with MX record support, which should be most of them, you just go update the record and all your mail is done being moved immediately.

    You will have to hook things to yet neither address, but only one more time.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago* (7 children)

    FYI you can get unlimited aliases with duckduckgo mail (still need an email provider though)
    https://duckduckgo.com/email/

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  • [–] 4 points 3 days ago (6 children)

    FYI, if you alias using someone else's domain, you fall into the same trap all over again when, say, DDG goes full AI wackjob and now you need to transfer hundreds of email addresses.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (4 children)

    when ddg goes

    love that we just know all of them are going to do this, when not if.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago* (3 children)

    let's not forget they have a specific page so you never get in contact with ai slop: https://noai.duckduckgo.com/

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago

    i mean sure, the way i use aliases is mainly for things i want no direct connection to, so losing them wouldn't be of any consequence to me. i feel like that's the main way there were intended to be used as they can be disabled with the click of a button (from within the email even).

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  • [–] 101 points 4 days ago (9 children)

    This is so frustrating because I started degoogling exactly a year ago, and had finally managed to get completely free of Google mostly thanks to the proton ecosystem... But it took a whole year! I am just settling. I am a mom of two under-10yo boys in my forties. I don't have time for this shit. I thought I was gonna die a proton user. Fucking hell.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    Holy shit. I've spent more than a year and I'm a fucking nerd with no kids to worry about. Hats off to you lady.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    Haha thanks, but I am a fucking nerd too and having kids is the biggest motivator for doing all you can for a better future. But yeah the time it takes to be able to go against the big-tech and surveillance state is NOT family friendly at all. Which is ironically why so many people become complicit in the system after having kids. It is by design.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    Well, I'm proud of you for trying. I made an effort some years ago trying to set up a cloud for the extended family to use, but it is so much work to actually keep it all fast, safe and going at all times and I don't want to be the reason that everybody loses their family photos. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    Sorry you're having to worry about this.

    For what it is worth, I think you're still better off at Proton (where their AI idiocy could leak your private information) than at Gmail (where their user agreements seem to indicate they proactively sell it.)

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  • [–] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 child)

    Yeah, and mine just got renewed for a year a couple of months ago so I'm gonna stick with it for the time being, hoping they listen to their paying customers while exploring the self hosting options but I really am not sure that's for me. I managed to do a lot of privacy related improvements in my digital life by just following github instructions blindly and such, but I think self hosting for email is the step that really goes above my pay grade. I tried doing jellyfin and high seas to stop paying for ellison's hbo but it didn't work out well and I'm back to paying for it begrudgingly. Ugh.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    I hear that.

    I've taken multiple runs at most of my digital freedoms.

    I figure I can always take another run at whatever continues to bother me, given time.

    And remember, you're already protecting yourself better than most people manage.

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  • [–] 64 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    This reads like every bad programmer/manager on Lemmy/Reddit that calls me a Luddite every time I push back on their wild assertions about LLMs and code. Absolute clownery.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 days ago

    Indeed, a healthy message could be: "We are making these novel tools available to our software experts and trusting their expertise to make the most of them".

    However they can't resist deciding that all of a sudden they, despite not actually knowing the space at all, know better than the people actually in the space. Lot's of people who might not even know what a job even is about becoming 'experts' who want to backseat drive how you do things. They read an article asserting that git isn't "AI appropriate" and tell you that you should be switching to an "AI appropriate" thing, despite not having ever touched software development at all, or even knowing what sort of software you produce let alone using it.

    I really can't wait for the bubble to pop and these types to get bored of trying to pretend they can lead through micromanagement in a domain they don't actually understand.

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  • [–] 51 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    The first is a change in engineering culture and engineer mentality. Your job has fundamentally changed. It is no longer to write code, and LLMs are not here to help you write better code faster. Your job is to help the LLM write better code faster.

    Emphasis theirs 🤮

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  • [–] 18 points 3 days ago

    The dumb thing about that quote is that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Engineers want to solve these problems by nature; if there were no voices from the top, we'd be getting AI to help us write better code, and trying to make AI write better code fast. For whatever reason the C-suites can't just let things follow their natural course which would already result in wins for them, they have to spew the narrative that our jobs are completely changing so they can justify getting rid of them

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  • [–] 49 points 4 days ago* (5 children)

    This is terrible, but what is even worse is that they partnered with a Zionist Swiss university, that supports Israeli military and out criminal sanctions against students protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.

    Partnership announcement.

    Israel military connection and student prosecution.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 days ago* (3 children)

    Zionist Swiss university

    you mean ETH Zürich?

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  • [–] 15 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    Yes. They are collaborating with Israeli military and criminally prosecuting students protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.

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  • [–] 43 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Man, I thought it was going to just be a thing about adopting LLMs... that's fucking off the deep end with that shit.

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  • [–] 36 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    ...but as it turns out, writing and manipulating code is one of the activities for which AI models are most well-suited.

    Uhhh...wut?

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  • [–] 30 points 4 days ago (12 children)

    Yyyeah, packing my shit and looking for another non-Five Eyes provider as we speak. I'll give up encryption at rest if I have to, matters far less than not giving psychos another dime.

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  • [–] [S] 17 points 4 days ago (11 children)

    I'm looking at fastmail at the moment. It's one of the older privacy focused so it might be an option for you?

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  • [–] 20 points 4 days ago (10 children)

    I hear good things about their service but Australia is a no-go for me personally in terms of data privacy. Looking at EU/Swiss/Norway to start with, we'll see how it goes.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

    Understandable.. My problem is money.... Fast mail is so far the only one that I found in the budget, as every option is gonna be more overall than I was paying with proton unlimited... Plus my threat model doesn't really need e2e email.. I mainly switched to proton for price and email aliasing to not get spam messages to hell from one of my accounts leaking my email in a breach. Currently looking at fastmail + windscribe + bitwarden for $140 a year where I was 190/2yrs but worth it to say fu to Mr yen

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I'm looking at price increases everywhere so far since I have rock-bottom data capacity needs but use a few personal domains with a lot of aliases. I guess that's the price of freedom.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 hours ago

    Windscribe is doing a black Friday deal all nov... 29 a year instead of 69.. and that price is locked in.. not just for the first year.. that made my mind up for me. Just got setup with my 3 new privacy services. Now the long task of moving all my accounts over to new aliases so I can kick proton to the curb

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  • [–] 7 points 4 days ago* (2 children)

    I am using posteo.de for mail/calendar/contacts. No e2e encryption though. German provider, strong EU privacy rules and they focus on privacy (you can pay by mailing them cash if you want to). 1€/month

    For storage I have a lifetime pcloud.com account (EU servers). Private data I encrypt with cryptomator.org.

    Disclaimer: I have not checked if any of them have gone crazy recently.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I really love the look of Posteo, but I use personal domains for mail. Pretty sure they still don't support those. If they did I probably already would have signed up with them.

    Disclaimer: I have not checked if any of them have gone crazy recently.

    Ha! Pretty sure the drama would have made it to us if so.

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  • [–] 29 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    The real tell here is when Yen berated an engineer who voiced concerns about security, saying "stop finding ways to be slow, start finding ways to be faster". He's a C-suite baby who wants what he wants RIGHT NOW!

    When the suits start acting like engineers who care about best practices are being obstacles instead of valuable stewards of quality, you know you're dealing with losers who can't be trusted to not run things into the ground. Any walking back that Yen does now, you know he's just biding his time to ride out the kerfuffle, and he's just going to low-key abuse his employees at a slightly slower pace, but he's going to get what he wants.

    Canceled my sub, moved my mail.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 days ago

    I may have to migrate too. I’m cautious with leaving proton, but they have had plenty of time to muzzle this guy and they haven’t so it’s time to move on. I own my domain and and the aliases will all follow me either way, though that’s going to be an absolute bear to migrate.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 days ago

    This. Although not enthused with the all in use of AI tools, I dont have a problem with it being used to generate code. So long as a human is responsible for the PRs that go into the project. The bigger issue is the push around sacrificing proper security posture and process. As I've said else where, for a company that sold me and many based on their security and privacy stance, its an odd position to take, and probably why I will be moving on closer to my subscription end

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  • [–] 58 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (15 children)

    People who care about this stuff really need to Stop looking to rent seeking corps and start using and funding collective run services with real standards instead or you're just gonna end up repeatedly having to switch providers everytime a CEO or founder gets exposed.

    Here are some examples:

    Email with open signup

    VPNs (free/pay what you can)

    application/vetting or invite needed

    I've been using and donating to riseup.net for 15 years and have yet to be disappointed by anything they've done or statements made by any members. It might take a few weeks to get an account approved but it's well worth it.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 days ago (5 children)

    I've used riseup in the past and agree with their worldview (for the most part) and they run the service well, but I had to leave them when I became more privacy conscious as they are headquartered in the United States. They could get a national security letter and I could be getting spied on and never know it. The NSL could direct them not to take down their warrant canary, too.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 days ago (4 children)

    Who did you end up moving to? I wouldn't trust any corp that claims to be immune form court orders or interference from national agencies. No one that accepts credit card payments is really outside the reach of the Feds there. I'd rather be with a provider that doesn't try to make false claims about what they can do. If France or the UK can strong arm proton into revealing payment info, I really doubt they'd stand up any better to the USA.

    If you are doing activities that might get you in trouble with a nation state please for the love of Schneier just use PGP and stop trusting ANY email provider with your messages.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    Haha I ended up moving to proton, which at the time (around 10 years ago) seemed like a good idea. Now I am just going to self host my email.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (2 children)

    Self hosting email is actually the worst though, isn't it? Or do you have a plan for getting through spam filters?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (1 child)

    I did it once before to satisfy the email "requirement" for nextcloud (ended up getting rid of that self hosted email though) and when I sent emails to family members' gmail and outlook accounts they didn't get caught in the spam filter. I am aware that this is a small sample size, but I am willing to try it out at least.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    The fact that one of the email provider examples (disroot) had a major hardware failure few days ago and getting new emails is still not possible is not very reassuring :/ Email being reliable is even more important to me than it being secure (if they leaked at least I would be able to read them :P). And that a serious tradeoff I think one should take into account when choosing smaller, independent provider.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    Which of these could survive being cut off from the international banking system? I need a new primary email but I recently learned about the situation with A/I and am concerned about potentially losing access. Any related thoughts you might have would also be appreciated, thanks.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    I think you should also keep in mind no email provider is 100% safe. I'd trust some to shutdown rather then comply with some demands (like LavaBit did), but I would not bet on any one provider being able to survive the onslaught of late-stage capitalism/fascism.

    Tech collectives are usually run entirely by volunteers and funded mainly by donations. Recently one of the best collective run providers, Autistici had to shut down due to being listed as a global terrorist org, once a provider hits that stage of being targeted by the powers that be nothing can really save them.

    The real solution is to have more and many tech collectives operating on similar ethical and moral standards so as to make it difficult and impractical to silence them, thats why I tried to list several options. RiseUp has been around for decades and probably is actually "safer" due to being run out of Seattle compared to being run as a shell corp in some odd jurisdiction that lets a corp claim they arent subject to 5-eyes or other spooky tech while happily accepting visa and mastercard payments and maintaining records of all their customers.

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  • [–] 24 points 4 days ago (3 children)
  • [–] 20 points 4 days ago

    Holy shit. The kool aid consumption is off the charts.

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  • [–] 39 points 4 days ago (4 children)

    good thing proton didnt look that good in the first place and i didnt switch to them

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  • [–] 22 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    and their CEO’s meltdown, they decide to do the exact opposite and go all in.

    I was INCHES away. They were going to be my de-google move. I had decided to pull the trigger but it was late and I know i would have been up all night dealing with it. I'd deal with it in the morning. A few more days slipped and he licked Trumps balls on twitter....

    Whoopsies, not with someone elses' 10 ft pole.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago

    "Luckily I didn't treat my cancer, turns out you get a cold after the treatment"

    They are still better compared to google. Am I pissed? Of course, am I better off than 10 years ago when I had everything on google? Of course.

    Will I be switching? Probably (never gave them a cent tho)

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  • [–] 18 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    I genuinely wonder what these executives have in their mind.

    What do they think? That engineers are good enough for being hired but not good enough to decide which tools to use?

    If I hire a plumber and I tell them what tool to use, the plumber would either comply and do a bad job or will tell me to get lost.

    Why do they think this is different?

    Do some engineers like LLM? Sure! And let it be Do some engineers don’t like LLM? Yes… and let it be.

    If these tools are so miraculous the engineers that use them will provide such good results that will naturally prevail.

    Why the executives need to thumb the scale?

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