Reject volatile tradition, embrace modernity: ~/Games/ROMs/Nintendo 64/
Also use a shitty CRT shader that mimics a broken black-and-white TV from the 50s for more tradition.
Reject volatile tradition, embrace modernity: ~/Games/ROMs/Nintendo 64/
Also use a shitty CRT shader that mimics a broken black-and-white TV from the 50s for more tradition.
Actually, in the case of discs, it can.
Say it with me everyone, "Optical media bad!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_degradation
Unfortunately, playing a burned copy requires modifying your hardware.
Most of you are probably too young to remember, but back then, the fact that Sony chose optical media and implemented DRM on the PlayStation was very controversial to people who knew the implications of those decisions. Unfortunately, that number of people was, and remains, very small.
Every disc copy of every game is a ticking time bomb, and the only way to defuse it is to make an unauthorized backup copy, then hack your PS1 to play the copy. There is no way to slow, prevent, or reverse the eventual decay of the data on the original disc.
This is true of every storage medium. Some bit rot faster than others, but eventually entropy comes for us all.
The important thing is the ability to make backups.
This ignores the underlying issue this post was about. Games being sold on physical media will likely last longer than games sold as digital downloads.
If you store a professionally pressed optical disc in an environment with good temperature control and low humidity, it may last 50 - 100 years. Only about 10% of pressed optical discs fail in under 25 years. Meanwhile, companies like Sony will take down their storefronts with little to no thought.
Yes, for backups, you're better off storing bin/cue files than trusting a cheap burned disc that will only last 1-5 years. But games getting sold with physical disc gives people the ability to rip them.
Meanwhile, companies like Sony will take down their storefronts with little to no thought.
Goodbye Vita store, hello Henkaku and PKGJ.
Games being sold on physical media will likely last longer than games sold as digital downloads.
Maybe the reason physical seems to outlast digital is because Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft are the companies most known for switching from physical to digital. These companies are greedy and anti-consumer and they seemed to have made the switch in order to push more anti-consumer practices.
There's no natural reason a physical game should outlast a digital one. The reason they do entirely comes from corporate greed. My steam library contains a copy of Gazillionare, a game released in 1994. A game still available for sale on Steam and that runs on my Linux box today. Games sold as digital downloads aren't inherently bad. The underlying issue is corporate greed.
Sure. I wouldn't be working as part of the Retro eXo team if it wasn't possible to preserve games digitally. But physical discs do something beyond not being possible to delist - they provide a snapshot of what the game was when it was pressed, which cannot be altered. Say a company is licensed to include music in a game for x number of years. After that time runs out, they may strip the content from the game. Another example is how companies like GOG strip out drivers and setup files from the retro games they put online. They rip content out of games as bad as dialup era websites like Home of the Underdogs did. A game might only be left with a single EGA video mode and Sound Blaster audio. Forget stuff like MT-32 - GOG always removes the files necessary for it to work. In the end, we can't really trust the companies to keep anything online.
If you store a professionally pressed optical disc in an environment with good temperature control and low humidity, it may last 50 - 100 years.
Reduce that to like 1 to maybe 5 years if it was being played in an original X-Box with a Thompson disc drive. (If ya know, ya know.)
I'm still salty about being so careful with all my discs and watching Crimson Skies and Halo: Combat Evolved load backwards before showing "Disc Read Error."
Eh, that's just the shitty organic medium they cheap out with. Metal dyes (M-Disc Blurays are 100GB good for 100 years, fine even for modern games) are great, shame they're artificially expensive.
Newer glass or quartz optical discs with femtosecond lasers are good for 360TB for 100K years (claimed) in a similar footprint. See also M$ sitting on 'Project Silica' for most of a decade.
Shame corpos don't want the CD burning revolution to happen again, just imagine what sneakernet would be like if you could fit all of Netflix in the palm of your hand burned on a USB peripheral.
Apparently this is an issue with modern flash carts too. If you don’t boot your 3DS games once in a while they will corrupt.
I was first excited for digital to replace vinyl and then for magnetic media mostly biting the dust, then latter for optical burning (heh) out. Anyone wanting to go back to the old days didn't have to actual hassle with old tech.
Reject rentals, embrace ownership
Funny thing is, I don't want ownership. I don't want to own things.
But I want to share things, so I don't want to rent them either.
I understand the sentiment, often I hold on to things I’ve bought that I ideally should replace or move on from but I don’t like the idea of throwing away something that is still functional and could potentially be used by someone else, except other than holding a big yard sale it’s just not worth it trying to give it away for small things individually, maybe if there was a business that collected stuff from you and became a central repository for others to come borrow it that would be nice, I know there are some power tools and equipment libraries out there and some libraries let you rent baking and other kitchen items
CDs and carts are worthless if the game is unplayable without a Day 1 patch.
Or being forced to sign into your Epic/EA/Blizzard/whatever account before you can play offline story-mode.
I really don't want more plastic garbage. Just give me the files.
Physical games can unfortunately degrade. To be clear, I'm a huge proponent of physical games. I say this only to highlight the important of emulating your games, as well.
The worst part is you can't return the game after opening the box.
So far I haven't seen any 'no cartridge' disclosures on Switch games, but surely they're there... surely?
Again this bullshit.
Old consoles did not have mechanisms to prevent you from playing games. Mainly because internet was not widespread enough for hardware vendors to make it mandatory.
A game(or the OS of the console/PC that runs it) that is 100% on your physical media can still require you to connect online, login with an account and all other kinds of bullshit. It was done in CD/DVD distributed games in the 00s. There are of course games released on physical media today that are not complete and require release date updates to run.
A modern unhacked console could refuse to run a game from disk if you don't connect/login to get permission from mommy Nintendo/Sony/MS. Them not doing so is not a limitation imposed on them by physical media. It's a policy, hopefully forced upon them by law.
TLDR: We don't need physical media, we need an unrevocable right to be able to play games we purchased with effective enforcement. Additionally we should have a right to modify the games as needed to be playable in other hardware/OS since we can't expect original hardware to last forever.
I feel like we should strive for both, the actual ownership and the physical media
What does physical media actually give you?
The ability to trade or barter it again after purchase.
Physical media alone does not guarantee that. You need a legal framework that forbids mandatory online activation. Actually better forbid them from binding a physical game at all cause or you should never connect your console to the internet.
But if we manage to get those rights we can also get the right to transferable software in general.
A shortcut to actual ownership
If the physical media game requires a server connection, how is it ownership, exactly? The corpo can still effectively take away the product from you by shutting down the servers. Or banning you.
"Plastic stuff" doesn't give you rights. Laws give you rights.
Thankfully, not all games need to phone home
So?
Those games distributed through a platform like GOG also won't phone home, so where's the difference?
GOG don't sell games on consoles?
Are you just refusing to answer the question because you know you would have to cede your point...?
I did answer, the difference is GOG don't sell games for consoles, so GOG alone are not the solution.
The discussion isn't about a specific platform, it's about physical vs digital media. Therefore you didn't answer the question.
If you're getting stuck on the "but it's GOG, it's different", replace that with literally any other digital distribution platform, because that is irrelevant to the question.
But this started with me saying that keeping physical media around is better for the here and now because the utopia of digital licenses you're proposong is not fully here yet and physical media is still one of if not the best way to still actually own something.
Yes I understand that there are some exceptions with some games being online only etc. but even the physical discs (or carts) that only hold a licence are still a valid form of ownership because the physical license that the physical format itself provides can be transferred to another party, like borrowing or gifting it to a friend, or selling it.
At the moment there is no standard for such transfers with digital content unless the files are fully DRM-free which sadly is still not the norm yet and still in a legal grey area if giving such files to another party. And the current situation we live in right now physical media IS the only way for such a thing to exist for consoles due to the walled garden nature of their digital storefronts.
I agree that just having the files to keep, unencrypted and without DRM, is the best solution for an end goal for consumers, along with hopefully other laws that protect and allow the owner to transfer ownership to another. But perfect is the enemy of good, and right now that future doesn't feel possible in the short term especially for consoles as they are currently. So it would be best for all if physical still stuck around until the future of digital that the consumer actually wants is a reality and is the industry standard and norm, whether by the corpos falling in line from consumer pressure or via regulation.
Yes I understand that there are some exceptions with some games being online only etc. but even the physical discs (or carts) that only hold a licence are still a valid form of ownership because the physical license that the physical format itself provides can be transferred to another party, like borrowing or gifting it to a friend, or selling it.
And this is what you're misunderstanding.
There's no physical license attached to your CoD disc - you need an account to activate it. Your disk is irrelevant.
As long as the publisher/developer is able to just shut-down the game remotely, you having a disk means nothing.
DRM is only partially relevant here because that's another layer that can be used to block access, but the primary one is how the publisher/developer holds the keys to the kingdom in most cases these days - regardless of the medium the games comes on.
I've already conceded that there are outliers but cod and it's example you used is not the norm. There are no servers needed for me to continue playing Astro Bot in 20 years time.
And yet there are 100% single player games that require a phone-home server to be active.
If Astro Bot doesn't do that, then it's irrelevant if you have it on a disk, or if you have a digital download. Assuming, of course, the digital download remains available, you get the exact same functionality.
And, likewise, regardless if you have the game on a disk or from DD, if it requires a server somewhere to be online, you do not have any control over the game or when you can play it, because it can always be rendered unplayable by the publisher pulling the plug on the server.
I'm not arguing about the games that have phone home mechanics, through personal experience there don't seem to be too many of them out there, they're mostly multiplayer ones (I'm not saying there are no single player games that do that though - but they very much seen few and far between, i can't even think of one off of the top of my head). And there is a difference between having the disc over the download because if i was to uninstall it for space, there is always a chance that during that time my license gets revoked, my account closed, hacked, or just forgotten the password for whatever reason. With a disc, it's always there as long as i always know where it is and i don't break it. Sony aren't ever going to kick down my door and demand the disc back
We actively avoid those games that require server connections
So what makes a game on a disk that does not require internet connection to run/activate better than a game distributed GOG style where once you get the game it also no longer requires an internet connection?
So you do acknowledge that it's not the medium of distribution, but rather the setup of the game itself that matters?
Not disagreeing with your sentiment but you're not right about old consoles.
All consoles starting with the NES had authenticator chips to cut down on piracy. Arguably the only reason the medium survived is because of the manufacturers tightened control over the flood of low quality games, knock offs, and theft. The Nintendo Seal of Approval was a necessity to buyers because it said the game wasn't shovelware garbage.
What's happening today with licenses, access control, and long-term renting from the corpos isn't fundamentally different, just more pervasive. But now we have all the shovelware too.
Also those carts DO just disappear as their RAM dies. The discs last longer, but I bet you have PS1 games that won't read anymore.
My comment on old consoles not preventing you from playing physical games was only in regards to originals, not pirated ones.
I am well aware that physical media actually provides more ways for vendors to limit control of software/games by the users. Both practical and even legal hurdles.
I agree that physical media won't last forever and even when they do the hardware that runs them might not work anymore.
Personally I'm working on a way to make cheap SSDs into cartridges for pc gaming. My goal is to build all the required directories and software onto the SSD so as long as you have the framework on the pc you can just plug it in and it will launch the game.
Tb drives may cost too much but crap 200gb drives are a dime a dozen.
Would USB thumb drives be too slow?
I was always told they'd be but honestly ive never had an issue with usb 3 or SD card. I'm doing SSD sata gives a really satisfying cartride feel.
Plugging something into a sata port usually requires taking the PC apart and restarting it doesn't it?
Right now I use a sata dockon my desk that I picked up for cheap and I actually plan on making both a vintage console case for it and another for the sata to usb board that I gutted out of an external hdd. Also the other commenter made a great point about putting a hotswap port in a tower, that's my ideal scenario if I can get a micro-pc. I salvaged an old pc years ago that had a WD My Passport dock in the case where a disk drive would go, I thought that would've been the coolest thing ever but it was obsolete before I got it.
I'm guessing they have some sort of hot swappable port, either external or built into case.
Depends on how it loads the data. Most executables will load completely into the RAM during launch. But some parts of the game are only loaded when needed, like graphics. Conversely though, most old games are small, and were designed around slow read write speeds. So most modern usb drives are fully up to the task, for older games.
Have you already checked out kazeta.org? Sounds a bit like what you are trying to achieve.
Sounds promising
It's honestly prety great, my biggest issue is that I'm absolutely not a programmer so my current abilities are limited to what I can cobble together with settings and system configurations.
I'm working on learning though, eventually I'll get it.
Sorry, I can't hear your complaint over Steams per game sales outstripping all other consoles
Discs and cartridges are just more eventual plastic trash for a planet that is drowning in it. They also do nothing to address the real problem because the terms were always the same, even with these. The real change needs to happen at the consumer rights level and require DRM free digital downloads. Hard drives aren't eternal either, but they can be backed up and replaced as needed to preserve a collection. Without illegal intervention, discs/cartridges keep the media stuck where it is until it breaks.
That was part of the reason why I started using cassette tapes again. No internet no subscription.
Good luck getting any of those classics at an affordable price, have you seen what the market looks like?
Good luck getting any of those classics at an affordable price, have you seen what the market looks like?
Good luck getting Switch 2 games at an affordable price.
Sure, the old games used to be cheaper than they are now, but most of them were more expensive back then (accounting for inflation)...and they're generally cheaper than current-gen console games.
...and they're generally cheaper than current-gen console games.
The wild thing is that a lot of in-demand titles aren't. I lost my original copy of Boktai 1 a while back and I'd love to replace it, but take a look for yourself how much that one goes for.
Hence why I said "generally"! I know some games have outrageously crazy prices. But I'd genuinely wager that the majority of retro game titles are cheaper now than they were when they launched, adjusting for inflation.
At least if you forgo the box/paper. I think strong arguments in either direction could be made about whether that's a fair comparison.
This reminds me to test and list the chipped PS2 in my garage for sale.
If gamers are dumb enough to pay these companies to continue with worse and worse habits, fine by me. Gaming money and consoles are 100% disposable income.
This is the way. Also, nice game selection on the left. Would love a physical, still haven't bought it.
Currently I'm collecting hucards. It's awesome 😁
But yeah optical discs, rather not interesting for collecting (bland + rotting).
Although controversial here, but in the age of AI, one can create engine replacements for games with DRM and/or behind obnoxious launchers to play them fully offline. For example, I am a huge fan of Anno 1602, but I was disappointed by the History Edition from Ubisoft. LLMs helped me a lot to build a new engine from scratch in quite a short time with all the enhancements, qol and features I would have loved to see in the History Edition without all of the Ubisoft crap. It runs super stable and smooth (especially multiplayer). This is the version my friends and I are playing now.
Unfortunately it's the rich who run those models. Maybe if it was pirated?
I understand your sentiment and it is fair if you don’t want to use these models at all. I have a copy of the original from GOG, the setup is saved on my hard drive and server, so there is that. I don’t care what Ubisoft is doing with the HE of Anno 1602. If you or anyone else is interested in trying out my engine replacement, it is fully open source under GPL-3: GitHub.com/x4rd4s/open1602
I will be uploading release builds soon, but you can already build it yourself.
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