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[–] 39 points 1 month ago

Lists of individual people, famously a tool of the liberator class 👍

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  • [–] 83 points 1 month ago (81 children)

    Can we not do a surveillance state, pls?

    Plus, I doubt anyone on .ml touches grass enough to be a security risk :P

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (57 children)

    I regret to inform you that not only do I touch grass, i get involved in local politics too. All of my municipal representatives, mayor, state reps know me and my politics. 🙃

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  • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (56 children)

    People attacking the .ml people for organizing while under pressure from the biggest worldwide alt right push in our generation is the funniest shit to me. God forbid the leftists start thinking collectively, you saw what happened to the donald? We're currently fucked by all that chicanery but heavens forbid you start thinking in the opposite direction too much, wouldn't want to get out of the right wing mess that we're living through, least of all if we put in place all those policies my right wing propaganda says are evil. Yeah this is so seruious that we should definitely all quickly jump into being right wing surveillance states to prevent the leftists from doing something about us all eating massive amounts of shit right now.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    see that's the funny bit. I've met like 2 self proclaimed tankies irl, all other leftists think they're lame as hell.

    they don't organize, they just sit behind keyboards and pretend they are.

    as long as they show up and help, I have never met anyone who has a problem with them existing in irl leftists groups on ideology alone. it's when they say shit like Ukraine is full of Nazis, or voting isn't even worth showing up to the polls, or that the uyghur genocide is a lie, then they gotta go.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Sharing my experience: I have found that online, "tankie" just gets thrown at any leftist that "goes too far" authoritarian or not.

    Do I agree with the Soviet use of tanks to suppress dissident in Europe in the 19th century? In so far as I wasn't there and therefore don't know fuck all about it: no. Am I going to clamor to distance myself from people who are accused of being tankies on Lemmy, especially if the people making the accusations are soc dems or centerists? Nah. Not engaging with that nonsense.

    I've never met someone calling themselves that IRL, but that might be because it's more of a youth thing. I agree that there is a lot more cooperation IRL, which is what's important.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (52 children)

    People attacking the .ml people for organizing while under pressure from the biggest worldwide alt right push in our generation is the funniest shit to me

    There can often be a lot of apathy and de-motivation coming out of .ml; particularly around elections and harm minimization. The way they talk about voting you would think its as much effort as having a week long strike.

    We could have better discourse and solidarity.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Since you're using me as an example, my point is about the enormous efforts and resources some organizations pour into increasing voter turnout and electoral strategies over the time-tested and far more effective strategies of actually struggling and organizing. No, an individual taking a couple hours to vote isn't a problem. It's a problem when an organization makes preparing for, canvassing for, advertising for, and organizing for elections their primary focus. That takes far more effort than even week-long strikes, yet it's a common strategy.

    The point isn't that individuals shouldn't spend a couple hours to vote. The point is that voting cannot establish socialism, so organizations that pour a ton of resources into electoral campaigns are wasting valuable resources that could be poured into unionizing, organizing tenants, educating cadre, and growing the organization through on-the-ground struggle.

    It's intensely dishonest to frame it as opposition to spending a couple hours voting on election day. The entire political theatrics that surround elections is a months-years long process that takes up mountains of resources better spent on growing and organizing than pinning all hopes on candidates being able to change the system from within.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (22 children)

    It’s a problem when an organization makes preparing for, canvassing for, advertising for, and organizing for elections their primary focus

    Things that will also be happening when doing any other organizing. So taking some time to also have a candidate in primaries to shift the conversation further left is worthwhile. Not to even bring up minimizing harm as a last resort when needed.

    So forgive me, but I don't see my framing as dishonest.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (21 children)

    Your framing was that Marxists oppose "sparing a few hours to vote." This is incorrect, and now that I drew attention to this mischaracterization you're pivoting hard from this. Many Marxist orgs do run candidates, such as PSL, but this is never the focus, as resources can always be better spent. You used my comment as an example, so it's important that I set the record straight.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (20 children)

    Your framing was that Marxists oppose “sparing a few hours to vote.” This is incorrect

    Your wording, and that of many others in .ml is ultimately one that is demoralizing those who are also helping on that front and one that is by and large read as against voting, as well as being self defeating. Maybe you personally are not, so perhaps pass some notes to the rest of the crew.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    demoralizing those who are also helping on that front

    This is the most honest statement I've seen on the topic. Yes, absolutely, it is obvious that when we educate people about the lack of impact voting has that people get demoralized. In fact, they think we are attacking them because they feel anxiety, fear, and despondency.

    I don't think there's any denying that. But it's basically the same argument as when white parents say that we shouldn't teach kids about the horrors of slavery because it will make them feel bad about themselves.

    The truth is painful sometimes. It is difficult to have your beliefs challenged and more difficult to change your beliefs and your behavior as a result.

    All of that is true.

    But what Cowbee is saying about wasting millions of dollars and person-hours and political capital and trust on something that is a dead end is worse for harm reduction and liberation. Everyone ought to vote. End of story. No one ought to donate to the DNC. No one should be spending their time door knocking for Democrats. No one should be fighting with their fellow workers if they don't feel like voting. No one should be spending time getting more people registered to vote. None of it is useful and it propagates a falsehood about the path to liberation.

    If you want harm reduction faster and sooner start organizing with revolutionary organizations. You and I do not have enough time to be part of three or for political groups, attend rallies for multiple parties, and to develop the skills and rhetorical training for multiple goals. For anyone who wants the world to change for the better the absolute fastest path is a general strike and literally anything that takes away from that is slowing down justice and harm reduction.

    People say we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I agree. Individuals will vote and then do revolutionary organizing. But don't tell me that someone holding down a full time job can volunteer for the DNC, the WFP, and also do revolutionary organizing at the same time. I've tried it. It was impossible for me, there's just not enough time to do it all, let alone do it well.

    We will all see massive harm reduction if we focus on the root cause. That's what it means to be radical - go to the root. Abortion, medicine, food, racism, misogyny, xenophobia, racialized mass incarceration, homelessness, ecocide, war, human trafficking, the opioid crisis, poverty .. you could spend your whole life trying to fix these things by voting for the right candidates and make no progress. Or you could do the root cause analysis and organize to address the root cause. The root cause is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and their maintenance of the imperial capitalist system. That's it. One solid root cause, one place to focus all of our efforts, all of our messaging, all of our education, all of our training, all of our organizing, and all of our relationships and trust building.

    That one thing will protect all of your friends and family and the oppressed in your community and around the world more than 100 years of voting ever will. And that's why all of the research, evidence, and history proves out. From centuries-ago history to recent history, it all points to the same conclusion.

    So yes, this analysis is demoralizing for people who volunteer earnestly every year for a Democrat candidate they really believe in. Yes it's demoralizing for the people who donate every month, listen to the podcasts, follow the inside baseball, and hang their emotional well being on electoralism on the faulty premise that this is how we will save people and the planet. Yes, of course it's demoralizing. But just as you have no obligation to make people feel a certain way about their false beliefs, I and those who share my position have no obligation to maintain the morale of people who believe voting will save us or even result in harm reduction. Our obligation is to propagate our analysis of the way the world works, to constantly revise our understanding based on research and data and lived experiences, to debate within our own communities about the various positions we have, and to adapt our understandings and our behaviors to have the maximum positive effect on the world. In our analysis, that means shutting down the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie as fast as possible by any means possible. The general strike is the least harmful and most readily available means.

    And while people are striking, they can still take time to vote their conscience.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Can I just say I think this was eloquently put, and I philosophically and intellectually largely agree. In Australia where I live voting is compulsory; in that context there is less conflict in that "d, all of the above" praxis can be actualised simultaneously.

    However, I am ambivalent about it in the context of the USA, however, where militating every possible vote against someone as egregiously awful and negatively impactful as Donald Trump seems from the outside to be a no brainer.

    I say this admittedly selfishly, as the decisions he/his handlers make particularly in the realm of rolling back of environmental rights seem to impact the entire world for generations to come.

    However, maybe this is just our Great Filter ¯\(ツ)/¯

    Life will continue, perhaps it's for the best it does so without H "sapiens"

    But I weep for my (and all of our) children.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    But Trump is not unique in this. The largest polluter in the world, bar none, is the US military. Every administration, every legislature, every politician, both parties expand the military and use it to bomb people all over the world.

    Obama led the greatest expansion of fossil fuel extraction in the US ever.

    All of Eurocentric society is guilty of destroying the planet. The Euro-empire developed the extraction processes, separated billions of people from their relationship with the planet (starting with themselves), and then imposed massive environmental destruction on those they subjugated as a condition of their survival.

    I hope this is the filter for the eurocentric world and that settler states like your and mine get dissolved in the coming decades and that white people in those settler states become assimilated into the societies that remain connected to the land. The idea that a single group of humans could cause the extinction of everyone else is not something I'm willing to just shrug off. It has to be stopped, and voting hasn't stopped it or even slowed it down.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    is worse for harm reduction and liberation.

    Well, that is just not true. And for all the organizing that the crew in MLs claim to be doing there isn't much to show for. Still I am not going to bad mouth them for working on their front, but I am calling them out for abandoning us here and their lack of strategic perspective. You have to live to fight another day.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    And literally no amount of campaigning for the Ds will help you live another day. The Ds supported the creation of the enemy combatant designation. They supported mass domestic surveillance. They pioneered using drones against US citizens abroad. They created the DHS and ICE policies being used against us today. They created the private prison operation contractor market to achieve mass incarceration. They pioneered the mass deportation program. They cross the aisle and collaborate with the Republicans to condemn communism and socialism. They do had the entire Epstein Files in the DOJ and did nothing to stop anyone despite knowing the the Trump Faction's plans.

    You are making claims that sound good but have no basis in reality. Democrats have never allowed us to live another day, its our fellow citizens that do that. And the more we focus on electoralism, the more that protection erodes because it does nothing to address the power system and its root and every day that power system works to split the working class in order to divide and conquer us.

    The Ds are not protecting you. They never have and they never will.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    D is still here the progressive wing lives and we should grow it as much as possible where they are winning primaries. In other places we are not so privileged as to the purity of our reps. Evey negative thing you have to say about a D is still a preferable outcome to a crusader R in that office. I get your critic, but you are lacking perspective and you are abandoning your allies that have less privileged and unable to move.

    Your organizing and grassroots is cool and all, but its not in my corner of the world. And you are not coming out to support me, so... yeah.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You're imagining things. You are imagining that vote mongering has an effect. The research is pretty clear that it doesn't have any effect. Again, you could be organizing your community to prepare for a general strike and then go vote and then keep organizing for a general strike. Instead you are clearly establishing yourself as someone who will only engage with people who vote and moralize that failing to vote is a moral failing and that people should follow you to voting booth.

    You fail to acknowledge that corporate profits are highest under Ds, that the largest ever expansion of fossil fuels happened under Ds, that the expansion of ICE happened under Ds, that the expansion of racialized mass incarceration happened under Ds, and that everything the Rs want the Ds give them. You fail to acknowledge that the fight for abortion rights is not simply because the Rs took office but because the Ds failed three times to even make a motion to codify into law while they had the trifecta of power. That Trump is in office and not in jail because Biden/Harris explicitly chose to not move on the Epstein Files.

    Your beliefs are false beliefs that don't match reality. The Ds aren't protecting you. They literally created the second Trump term with their deliberate and open actions. They literally created the ICE crisis we have now with their deliberate and open actions. They literally created the 2008 global financial crisis with their deliberate and open actions. They literally created contemporary the fossil fuel ecocide with their deliberate and open actions.

    Voting for Ds created exactly the things you think voting for Ds will mitigate. Your position is not based on reality. It's based on the desire to not feel demoralized, the emotional need to believe a story that keeps you safe and puts the moral burden on others.

    It's time to reexamine your beliefs

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    So, to retread that comment, I said 2 important things:

    1. Organizing is the method by which to grow working class power and gain change

    2. Marxists do not emphasize voting because capitalism cannot be reformed into socialism from within

    I fail to see how identifying a working strategy and arguing against a failed strategy is "demoralizing." If anything, knowing for a fact that organizational practice is key, effective, and practical is extremely uplifting. I am also explicitly in this comment against focusing on elections, not against voting in any and all capacities.

    Perhaps you should stop spreading disinformation and sowing division by misrepresenting the views of Marxists? Then you likely wouldn't see such strong pushback from people correcting the record. It's the same tired strawman as those that say socialists support Trump because we also oppose the DNC.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I fail to see how identifying a working strategy and arguing against a failed strategy is “demoralizing.”

    With all respect I am not calling names to your views, even with their lack of apparent progress. DSA won a major election in NYC and is becoming more known. Even then many places don't have a DSA at all, let alone a PSL.

    You are at the end of the day ranting about people wanting the general public to vote as left as possible where they are. That is quite divisive.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    Congrats to the DSA for winning the mayoral seat in New York City! The primary advantage of this is that it advertises the DSA as an organization that, at least nominally, supports socialism. Mamdani's position, however, helps highlight the futility of trying to change capitalism into socialism brick by brick from within, why electoralism is inevitably a dead-end, and the only utility it has with respect to socialism is advertising.

    You are correct to say that many places do not have a DSA, or a PSL. This is why the focus should be on grassroots organizing, not electoral campaigns. Imagine if the resources used by the DSA to canvass for elections were employed by disciplined cadre sent out to these areas to start new chapters! The PSL does this, but by nature of being a demcent party is smaller. The strength of the DSA is in numbers, the weakness is in always tailing behind when it comes to strategy and tactics.

    To the DSA's credit, internally there is widespread debate about reform vs revolution. If the DSA successfully converts to a revolutionary organization, then I will re-evaluate them.

    I am not "ranting about people wanting the general public to vote as left as possible." This, again, is a dishonest characterization of myself and the Marxist position on resource allocation in an organizational capacity. I am vocally opposing making elections the primary capacity by which an organization uses its resources and efforts, and instead advocating for making grassroots organizing the primary effort. This is the Marxist position, not what you have been presenting in memes and comments.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    To the DSA’s credit, internally there is widespread debate about reform vs revolution. If the DSA successfully converts to a revolutionary organization, then I will re-evaluate them.

    Notice that your language states you do not support them. Hence my position never actually misrepresenting you or the broader .ml. Still the DSA is in better position to minimize harm in the mean time, and better position to grow in membership; which it will need for converting to a more revolutionary party.

    I am okay with the revolution not happening in my life time. It takes a while for culture to shift away from capitalism, but it would be nice to have some respite and as much breathing room while we get there. Currently .ml types are not really helping in that front other than assuring the rest of us that they are organizing.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

    You said Marxists "cannot spare a few hours to vote." I stated that the actual position is that Marxists emphasize the importance of grassroots organizing over focusing primarily on elections and trying to change the system from within. Marxists do not fight against reforms, we oppose methods that leave reform as the dead-end. The DSA, as a reformist party, cannot achieve socialism. This is why I do not support the DSA in its present iteration. Do I think they are as bad as the DNC or GOP? No. Do I think they are taking an ineffective path? Yes.

    You keep referencing a nebulous, vague, ".ml type." This "type" is a strawman you drag around and beat publicly, not an actual position, ideology, or political party. This is probably convenient for you, but it isn't particularly compelling of an argument. The Marxists are organizing, to the point that the state is cracking down on all manner of left groups.

    Critically, I am not okay if we do not establish socialism within my lifetime. Climate change is an active danger that stands to kill us all if we do not end capitalism's insatiable lust for profit over people, and imperialism kills millions while the US Empire still exists. We do not have the luxury of ineffective practice and taking it easy while climate change is on the clock and the global south suffers for our inability to do what must be done.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    e do not have the luxury of ineffective practice and taking it easy while climate change is on the clock and the global south suffers for our inability to do what must be dons.

    I have been on lemmy for some time now. I see .ml in the exact same place. DSA has a major city. Even shit dems drag their feet where a repub would be a crusader. The way I see it is that it buys you time, so I hope all this organizing is actually going somewhere. Tho it does seem odd that for all the passion and urgency .ml really does not seem intrested in material results.

    I am not going to argue that the DSA is all that, but they show more people that socialism is not scary.

    Shit dems give less robust support to Israel. Did you know that is still helpful to those on the literal front line? Well thanks to .ml all or nothing means that Hamas now has to fight Israel at its strongest.

    I mentioned it before. Elections have consequences and it would be great is .ml had solidarity to help minimize the negative parts. All war is class war, and soldiers get dirty if they are in trenches. They also have to live to fight another day.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    More vague character assassinations against ".ml," without actually engaging with the point: the Marxist position is that elections cannot bring about socialism, so the primary focus of any organization should be on grassroots struggle and growth, cadre training, and organizing, not on electoral campaigns. That's the point, that's the critique of the overwhelmingly electoral DSA. You keep beating this vague and impossible to actually define ".ml" because it's harder for you to criticize actual political positions and parties, and it's for those very same reasons that I reserve my critique for positions and parties as they actually exist, not vague ".world types."

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    so the primary focus of any organization should be on grassroots struggle and growth, cadre training, and organizing

    All of those things can be done in parallel with election. Especially local ones.

    You keep beating this vague and impossible to actually define “.ml”

    Its not vauge. Your dogma makes you closed minded.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I never said resources cannot be allocated to both elections and organizing. If you do organizing work, you understand that your resources, both monetary and in terms of volunteer labor, are exceptionally limited. The position is that because elections cannot bring about socialism, the bulk of the work should be done on grassroots organizing and struggle.

    You keep insinuating a binary that nobody is arguing for, using a strawman you call ".mls." To begin with, Lemmy.ml is neither an ideology nor a party, it's a site commonly used by Marxists. Why not just say "Marxists" or "Marxist-Leninists?" Because you'd have to engage with Marxism and Marxism-Leninism directly, not through a strawman.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago*

    I have been on lemmy for some time now. I see .ml in the exact same place. DSA has a major city. Even shit dems drag their feet where a repub would be a crusader.

    so first off .ml is a server for shitposting on the internet, not a political organization.

    i am pretty connected in my local milieu and all my marxist comrades have been working their asses off for over a fucking year protesting and pressuring electeds over the healthcare for trans kids in our state getting cut. the 100% democrat state government and affiliated nonprofits has been having them arrested. they prefer to comply in advance with the fascist ass republicans and sacrifice trans healthcare in the name of protecting institutions.

    the reason i have so much ire for the democrats is that the the time for action is now and they're all just fucking fundraising and keeping their heads down hoping a vote will fix things.

    having their cultists threatening to put me on a list cause they don't like my internet posting is just another fucking day in the life

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  • [+] -12 points 1 month ago (27 children)

    I've said this time and time again. They do not care about Palestinians either. They want people like Trump in charge, because they're just fascists in a different coat of paint and millions or even tens of millions of casualties is completely fine as long as it harms the reputation of a western country, any of them in fact.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (19 children)

    They want people like Trump in charge

    wrong, i absolutely do not want trump in charge. i want the democrats to suck less. i put the 2024 election loss at their feet. i wish they had actually delivered things for people (other than bombs to the genocide) so they didn't eat shit.

    the people blaming voters for the democrats obscene incompetence are actively making things worse by refusing to learn anything.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    i wish they had actually delivered things for people (other than bombs to the genocide) so they didn’t eat shit.

    @boonhet@sopuli.xyz, see I don't think they are being fake here. They have a point here.

    Still they are not under siege, so its easy to keep your purity clean and say something is not good enough. Would a total stop to support of Israel be good? Of course. The overall tone is all or nothing; which surprise they got nothing given their tendency to walk away from the table and surrender all possible influence they might have, so they cannot even muster a reduction of aid to Israel.

    Its not clear what their superior community engagement has brought to that or other causes. I suppose they could travel to Yemen and enlist in the Houthis' army. For what its worth they did say they are standing up to Israel and taking serious action.

    the people blaming voters for the democrats obscene incompetence are actively making things worse by refusing to learn anything.

    Its a fair point, but also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you walk away from the conversation you lose your position. It is not a surprise that those who left got nothing. Or that when they return they have nothing to build from their previous success. Mamdani is a good example here. The DSA can point to his record for re-election and other DSA can point to him and say lets bring that here; rather than just abstract talking points.

    Its okay if .ml isn't the tip of the spear on the electoral front, but their disparaging is counter productive and damages overall leftist unity.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    the "walk away from the conversation" framing assumes that conversation is a place where meaningful negotiation happens.

    the democratic party has demonstrated repeatedly that left pressure doesn't move them. they take the votes and ignore the demands, then they act as if they were always going to win and never needed you (at least until it's time to cope about a loss, then we're entirely to blame).

    doesn't matter if it's for palestine, trans healthcare, minimum wage increase, universal healthcare, more often than not it's the democrats calling the cops on people for speaking up.

    i've said before but your vision of 'left unity' reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    i've said before but your vision of 'left unity' reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.

    I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I am saying your surrendering an important part of our class war. Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics. We are on a complete back foot here and mls have a defeated complex about building momentum.

    Like I pointed out. Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics.

    i'm an anarchist, but i've still read a bit of lenin. in fact one of the polemics of his that i've read was 'left wing communism an infantile disorder', the text you're paraphrasing.

    his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.

    Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.

    this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don't see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.

    And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local.

    this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don’t see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.

    And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.

    right now those exact type of dems are the ones having my friends and comrades arrested for protesting their capitulation. they are far more invested in protecting institutions and their own careers than listening to anyone on their left. the only real difference is that those dems not overtly calling us slurs.

    And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local

    thing is i'm in an area with a foothold already and i don't see why we can't expect more from these democrats right now. are we expected to wait until dsa/psl is running people for every dog catcher position in the country first? asking more of democrats in a deep blue state is not hurting their re-election chances. in reality their secure election position is exactly why they are so unaccountable.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    thing is i’m in an area with a foothold already and i don’t see why we can’t expect more from these democrats right now

    Well that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats. As for the second point you should continue to prod and push them to do more. No where have I said dems win is the end game.

    We are on the back foot and we have to live to fight another day. I'm sure you are familiar with the long march?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats.

    there's a constant stream of trans people relocating from other parts of the country, those who can afford to at least. blue states have their upsides, but much of that goes away the second you're unable to pay the inflated rents. i have way too many friends on the brink of homelessness and basically everyone i know has roommates, myself included. when i was on state insurance i was stuck paying out of pocket for HRT.

    it may seem like a privileged position, but right now it's just different terrain of struggle with the primary roadblock being democrats and their lgbt 'ally' nonprofits that have completely failed to meet the moment. instead of getting arrested by team red we get to be arrested by team blue.

    my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere, they've demonstrated that they're perfectly happy to throw minority groups under the bus in defense of institutions and their own positions.

    i don't think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    i don’t think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march

    No, the point is that they did what they needed to do to come out ahead. Regardless of how unpleasant it was. You need to live to fight another day to win. From where I am standing .ml types are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed. In this case it means voting dem where necessary.

    my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere

    Good news Diva, no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.

    fortunately it is manifestly unnecessary to vote dem for me as we don't have a popular vote and as a party republicans are entirely a non-factor (the seats are either nonpartisan or they just run as 'moderate' democrats)

    don't worry though i still get to vote in dem primaries

    From where I am standing .ml types are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed.

    from where i am standing way too many people are trying to return to the fucked up normal that came before trump instead of demanding better.

    the democrats as a party are themselves extremely worried about purity testing too, to all of our detriment. they specifically exclude anyone pro-palestine and anti-capitalist, even if that's what's needed to meet the moment. as i've said, they waste opportunities and de-energize movements to protect institutions and their own positions. if we're on a long march they are actively walking the wrong way, not to mention actively sabotaging us.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    from where i am standing way too many people are trying to return to the fucked up normal that came before trump instead of demanding better.

    Really? I don't see that. I see people wanting better. I also see ML types not wanting to get the snow ball rolling on building electoral influence. They have none and make no effort to make any; they they wonder why they have made no head way or got anything from it.

    the democrats as a party are themselves extremely worried about purity testing too, to all of our detriment. they specifically exclude anyone pro-palestine and anti-capitalist,

    I mean. I clearly wrote before; voting blue is a last resort. And one that we won't be able to move away from as many MLs just don't care to help the rest of us on this front.

    if we’re on a long march they are actively walking the wrong way, not to mention actively sabotaging us.

    To expand on that... It looked even worse as they kept going, and kept getting more unpleasant. If they made the "principled" stance you are trying to make they would have been defeated in totality. Still the retreat was needed to pull forward later. They had to take steps that looked like abandoning their villages and towns, but they understood that if they didn't then no one was going to be around for them tomorrow. I am sure they had the same recoil you feel at the possibility to vote for a mid dem, but many in the .ml server are unwilling to do what is needed (seems to me)

    By the way, there are also more than just presidential elections. Local elections are far more important and often have on gerrymander or even people bothering to vote. These are not terribly expensive.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    They had to take steps that looked like abandoning their villages and towns, but they understood that if they didn’t then no one was going to be around for them tomorrow.

    so is this metaphor supposed to imply that i should be okay with my 'allies' abandoning me and other trans people in the name of their third position democrat schemes?

    By the way, there are also more than just presidential elections. Local elections are far more important and often have on gerrymander or even people bothering to vote. These are not terribly expensive.

    personally i am very involved in municipal stuff; many cities are heavily gerrymandered to have the local politics dominated by suburban shitheads completely detached from reality. the seats are all nonpartisan so often times even deep blue cities will have entire councils run by conservative real estate assholes and their friends.

    the point isn't just the money, it's that it's a massive time and personnel sink to pursue that across the country. all that for basically no payout considering how heavily most voter rolls are slanted towards wealthy homeowners. renters often end up effectively disenfranchised because in addition to needing to making extremely high rents and move between municipalities, they also have to update ballot paperwork every year or get de-enrolled.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    so is this metaphor supposed to imply that i should be okay with my ‘allies’ abandoning me and other trans people in the name of their third position democrat schemes?

    Its possible they might need to. I know I already have been left behind. All war is class war. All war is difficult. I don't blame you for not having the heart for it. Should the CPC taken a heroic stand? At the start of it they had a series of set backs and it was clear to their commanders that they were on the brink of total defeat; hence why they made the call they did.

    the point isn’t just the money, it’s that it’s a massive time and personnel sink to pursue that across the country.

    You don't have to take the point to lead the electoral part. I am not asking you to. No one is. You are being asked that when an uncomfortable, but strategic you should be ready to play your role in it.

    I am not lucky enough to live in a blue place. I live in Texas and have family scattered around. Some even in Mexico. We are not going to see the fruit of any DSA growth in NYC or its spread to other cities for a while. Let alone anything PSL.

    We as leftist are on a total back foot as far as our causes go. It is unwise to also be picky eaters as to where our influence might grow.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    the analogy only works if the democrats are the CPC, which they very much are not. they certainly are not interested in building independent revolutionary power and will sabotage any attempt at it.

    All war is class war.

    it's not tho, the slogan is 'no war but the class war'.

    additionally there's a distinction between wars of national liberation, defensive wars against genocide, and inter-imperialist conflicts that workers have no stake in.

    You are being asked that when an uncomfortable, but strategic you should be ready to play your role in it.

    if a party don't share any core values or objectives with me and considers me and people like me expendable, it is not strategic to vote for them. Have you ever tried to ask a democrat politician to do something they didn't already want to do?

    I am not lucky enough to live in a blue place.

    it's not like i was born here, i had to work hard for this. the vast majority of whatever family remains for me is on the other side of the planet. i prefer to focus on the people in my life in the here and now, and they are actively being harmed by democrats who choose to comply with trump against all protestation.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    f a party don’t share any core values or objectives with me and considers me and people like me expendable, it is not strategic to vote for them. Have you ever tried to ask a democrat politician to do something they didn’t already want to do?

    And no one is saying you need to join the party. Just to be strategic about the matters. Simply refusing to participate in because of your purity seems to me that you are not serious about the issues. You are functionally saying that there is opposition so you are just folding.

    it’s not like i was born here, i had to work hard for this.

    And I am happy for you, but regardless of how hard you worked for it, it is still a point of privileged for you. Lot of people like you have also worked hard, yet they don't have the same result to show for it or anywhere close. They are also facing a possible uninspiring dem flipping their red senate in texas or a county seat or a crusader rep. There is no good option, but there is still a preferable. Your position is to simply say to bad and offer no assistance as it makes you feel dirty.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    And no one is saying you need to join the party.

    i mean yeah including me, cause i didn't say that. i even said i vote in democrat primaries; if someone shitty wins the dem primary (like usual) then them winning the state is already a fait accompli. i don't see what's the goal of demanding i vote for them or display 'loyalty' at that point.

    You are functionally saying that there is opposition so you are just folding.

    no i am saying that if democrat politicians would rather arrest my comrades than stand up to trump, they are not people i am going to support. rather than participating in an electoral charade around these kinds of people i would rather engage in direct action with other likeminded people to embarrass them and highlight their supreme cowardice. trying to invoke communist terms in order to get me to support people that are manifestly not communists is not going to sway me.

    it is still a point of privileged for you.

    nowhere have i said not to vote, i probably vote more regularly than most of these blue maga cultists.

    however, it's just a waste of time and effort to try to sway a bunch of suburban hitlers to vote for someone that doesn't suck ass. i prefer to work outside of electoral politics with people that don't take that level of convincing. i also sincerely think that working outside of electoral politics is a better strategic decision than putting any effort into a party that would rather see me dead.

    what good is living in a blue state if your spineless democratic government is doing whatever trump says in advance? not to mention how they've been allowing fascist goon squads to kidnap people off the street.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    what good is living in a blue state if your spineless democratic government is doing whatever trump says in advance? not to mention how they’ve been allowing fascist goon squads to kidnap people off the street.

    That you no longer have to vote blue no matter who and start pushing more safely DSA/PSL. Going dem is not the end goal.

    Talk to your fellow MLs about being strategic and pragmatic.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Talk to your fellow MLs about being strategic and pragmatic.

    as i keep saying, i'm an anarchist; pretty much all of the anarchists and marxists i know personally vote in the same way i do.

    engaging in these threads always feels like other people are arguing with a caricature of me in their head rather than engaging with what i'm saying.

    That you no longer have to vote blue no matter who and start pushing more safely DSA/PSL.

    and in return i get to have democrat die-hards telling me that i'm a trump or russia supporter for that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    and in return i get to have democrat die-hards telling me that i'm a trump or russia supporter for that.

    Its unfortunate they don't get it, but they either make concession to us or we make a credible spoiler to the election.

    At the end of it we are not going to stop going left the way we won't stop for maga.

    as i keep saying, i'm an anarchist;

    You'd be a better messenger.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    None of us want Trump in charge. Accusing communists of being fascists or not supporting Palestinians simply because we emphasize the importance of grassroots organizing over trying to change the system from within is dishonest.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yet if you don't vote against fascists, you're legitimizing what they're doing. And voting doesn't mean you need to stop the grassroots organizing. Voting should be only one of many things you do when fighting against fascism, but it should still be one. Every American who did not vote for Harris knowing she was the only candidate with the ability to stop Trump 2.0 from happening, shares part of the blame for everything Trump's done this term. And no, this doesn't absolve the DNC from guilt for giving you a shitty candidate in the first place... But if your options are literally "let fascists win" or "bite the bullet and buy 4 more years to hopefully change things via midterms and primaries", what kind of a sick joke is telling everyone to NOT vote against Trump? That voting against Trump makes them support genocide? Millions upon millions have suffered because of it since January 2025. AS HE PROMISED.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    I did vote against fascists, just not for the DNC, who are also a party of genocidal imperialists. Fascism is not an organic movement, it's what happens when the capitalist class realizes that bourgeois democracy stands to risk their control. It's also why voting can never establish socialism, or prevent fascism, it's the decision of a class that is in control of the state to begin with.

    A Harris presidency would have continued to see genocide in Palestine, as Biden did, and would have continued the US Empire as normal. Domestic conditions would likely have been a bit more stable, but the fundamental imperialist system that props up both the DNC and GOP would continue to face the same decay and reaction we see under Trump today.

    The only way to actually prevent fascism is to organize at the grassroots, and establish socialism through revolution. You place a horrendously false binary of "let fascists win" or "bite the bullet and buy 4 more years to change things via midterms and the primaries." The former is out of our control to begin with, and the latter is not an actual path forward. The only path forward is revolution, which requires focusing our efforts on building a unified, disciplined, educated working class party that stands opposed to the imperialist system from the outside.

    Framing the hours of effort I give every week, every month, every year as "supporting Trump" because I don't take an electoralist focus is absurd. The only way to end the rule of the DNC and GOP is not through trying to reform the DNC from within, but from fighting the system directly.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    All the .ml users replying to you:

    "I don't want trump in power!" Proceeds to actively help trump and the GOP win elections at every opportunity

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    Struggling directly against the capitalist state at every opportunity, on the ground, is "actively helping Trump and the GOP win elections?" What kind of nonsense double-speak is this?

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  • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    In a war of memes and information bubbles, people not touching grass is a security risk

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    crazy how the main audience for this kind of two minutes hate thread for .ml is always zionists

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  • [+] -13 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Everything I don't agree with is woke, I mean zionist.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    Wild comment. It's woke to dislike genocide now? If we rearrange your words, they make a little bit more sense; "I don't agree with anything zionist."

    The word woke doesn't mean anything anymore, so we can let that one slide.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    I wouldn’t consider folks from .ml to be dangerous tho - they are simply a book club that is being mean to people on internet.

    Right-wingers, who don’t touch grass, on the other hand, are far more dangerous - just remember QAnon, this shit was started by some 4chan troll.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Ironically I don’t think anyone considered 4chan very dangerous until the whole QAnon shit.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Eh, I think there's a decent amount of intellectual overlap between authoritarian right wingers and authoritarian left wingers. They will both prioritize state control over people.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    That’s something I actually like about .ml it allows me to find literature on important current topics without the capitalist mindset, that’s so hard to come by. On the other hand the blind following of concepts like Lenin’s democratic centralism and Mao’s defence of state oppression, makes it difficult to convince with, along with the silent support for capitalist autocracies like the Kremlin and Xi.

    I’m currently reading the Red Book from Mao and there some parts that are needlessly dangerous that use crusaders logic to defend atrocities for a promised future.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    That’s something I actually like about .ml it allows me to find literature on important current topics without the capitalist mindset, that’s so hard to come by.

    this is exactly why i was originally drawn to browse the hexbear.net/c/news. living in the US the corporate run media maintains pretty tight control over narratives. i prefer to know as much as i can of the entire picture and decide for myself.

    none of the orgs i'm in are even dem cent. it's a framework for organizing which i think fits a particular type of moment, but is not without its issues outside of those moments.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Just to spare you some sanity as I've told others -- and you're probably already well aware -- most of these tankies who have a hard-on for and simp on behalf of Eastern Authoritarian genocidal apologists have a tendency to be a part of the 50 Cent Party or some derivative troll farm. In other words, they literally get paid to post comments; meanwhile Lemmy itself has limited control over sock-puppet account duplication. Just know there are sane people on here and don't waste your time too much. Stay on message in the first comment or two and let them run their mouths if they wish, but many of them get a paycheck from dragging you into comments (if aren't actual zealots themselves). You never know. though -- it could just come down to them thinking, "Hammer & Sickle cool!" or something.

    I'm all for exploring other ideologies; but that tends to stop short of ends-justify-means utopic fantasy whereby many are oppressed; when there are double-standards when geopolitically-expedient for the likes of what is occurring in Gaza, but conveniently not for what is happening in Ukraine, to Uyghurs, to Tibetan Buddhist monks, to Hong Kong democratic protesters, to Taiwanese sovereignty in blatant imperial conquest.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Thanks ❤️

    Yeah it would definitely help to know who downvoted or upvoted some blatantly heinous comments.

    Having now been fodder to a couple of the 50c army I’m now much less inclined towards the label of Socialism so I’m not sure for the overall motives other than Cult purity.

    I’ll be looking for a mbin or piefed instance now 👋

    https://rdctd.pro/defense-against-cult-control-tactics/

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Sadly I fear that's part of their intention (we further cannot rule out far-right nazis masquerading as leftists in order to muddy the well).

    Though I completely get your concerns. Have you looked much into Social Democracy?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I take it you haven’t seen my red rose profile picture 😉

    But no not as literature, I thought I’d get the foundation of Marx but took a detour on Mao do you have any recommendations?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Oh no I'm sorry. My vision isn't what it used to be and it's tiny on my screen lol. That's funny though

    Honestly, I don't have any good recommendations except to say that over the years and having kind of visited most of the points of the political spectrum I've started to settle down here. That when looking for something better that has also been realized somewhere in the world already, I keep coming back to the Nordic Model. Perfect? Maybe not. Best we've seen? By the data, I contend yes. Moreover it doesn't seem like we have to engage in this ends-justify-means pursuit of an unrealized dream like I mentioned before.

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  • [+] -11 points 1 month ago*

    Plus, I doubt anyone on .ml touches grass enough to be a security risk :P

    who do you think are the people recruited for a terrorist attacks here and there? they are not from taylor swift fanclub. most of them won't go further than bitching on the internet from their parents basement and will never be a problem in real life, but 1 in 1000 is all it takes.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago

    Damn, just become a cop or join the military or something. Say it with your whole chest. If you want to live a life of violence against your fellow workers, don't be a coward and outsource that shit.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago*

    Edit: Is this the fucking Three Arrows guy?

    Original comment: Yeah nah making lists of people based on politics is and should be illegal for obvious reasons. I mean, I know that this isn't honored and that I'm 100% on a couple of lists, but it's just a bad idea to normalize it.

    Making apologies for Russia or the USA is really stupid though.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago

    mfw i joined the wrong instance of some niche social media so now i deserve to get put on a list of undesirables and be pre-crimed

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